Rumor: Trade Rumors and Proposals Thread | Ken Holland, There's Nowhere to Run to, Nowhere to Hide

[Soundwave]

It's important for him to know that people see that his tangents are long-running sentences based almost completely on opinion. No facts.

For him to go multiple pages without backing up his initial comment is cringeworthy.

Pittsburgh's drafting has been shit for 15 years. Tell me why I'm wrong. You can't.

You live in this dream world that we're going to be Tampa Bay with all these amazing picks, it's a bull shit fantasy that's never going to happen. There's a bozo on every team's board that thinks they are going to get the next lucky run of 2nd/3rd/4th round picks, it's not gonna happen for most of them.

Wake up and realize you have maybe 2 years before this gets really, really ugly. This clock has been running since 2015, we are now in 2022, not 2017.

 

[belair]

If they take Toews they probably win 3 or 4 Cups early in Crosby's career, Crosby + Malkin + Toews would've been an unstoppable organizational foundation. They took Staal because of his last name.

TRADES are not drafting OK. If they were the Oilers should have a good player for every player they draft, clearly it doesn't work like that. You need to be able to TRADE properly, and the Oilers are a text book example of utterly failures at that.

That is a completely different skill.

In terms of actual DRAFTING, the Penguins haven't really drafted that much better than the Oilers at all, the main difference is they got Letang as a home run 3rd round pick, the Oilers have not gotten the equivalent D pick to that.

You're embarrassing. Just keep changing the subject.

They won their Cups. And it's because they drafted, developed and managed their rosters well. Nobody's ever mentioned missing out on Toews.

And you're right, trades are not drafting. But to trade you need to have assets that other teams value. Enter prospects acquired via the draft.

 

[Soundwave]

You're embarrassing. Just keep changing the subject.

They won their Cups. And it's because they drafted, developed and managed their rosters well. Nobody's ever mentioned missing out on Toews.

I'm not changing the subject. Which years of the last 15 years am I supposed to be amazed at from Pittsburgh draft wise?

Answer the question. You keep changing the subject because you know you're wrong. Period.

You have to conflate trades with drafting to keep your point, but trades and drafting are two separate things entirely.

 

[belair]

I'm not changing the subject. Which years of the last 15 years am I supposed to be amazed at from Pittsburgh?

Answer the question. You keep changing the subject because you know you're wrong. Period.

You have to conflate trades with drafting to keep your point, but trades and drafting are two separate things entirely.

The fact that you believe that 'trades don't count' goes to show how odd your perspective is. The draft is a method of acquiring assets, not just players. And teams rich with quality assets generally have a far easier time building a competitive roster.

Pittsburgh built their Championship rosters using a significant number of pieces they'd collected through the years in the draft. If you choose to ignore that, that's your prerogative. It's just flawed logic.

 

[Soundwave]

The fact that you believe that 'trades don't count' goes to show how odd your perspective is. The draft is a method of acquiring assets, not just players. And teams rich with quality assets generally have a far easier time building a competitive roster.

Pittsburgh build their Championship rosters using a significant number of pieces they'd collected through the years in the draft. If you choose to ignore that, that's your prerogative. It's just flawed logic.

Trades is not drafting. Since f***ing when did that become the same thing? You are throwing that in because you know full well Pittsburgh's last 15 drafts are largely SHIT.

Anyone can click on the link there and see it. 1 good draft out of 15. One good draft in 15 years. If that's what passes for championship caliber drafting I guess the Oilers should have a Cup or two coming any day now.

Like what you're trying to say doesn't even make logical sense, it's like saying the 90s Oilers were amazing at drafting, when they plainly weren't, they were good at trades for some of their younger assets, sure (getting Weight, Guerin, etc.) but you can't say they drafted those players somehow if it's the same thing ... like what the f***? They were good at trading. That's a different skill set for a GM entirely.

The Oilers suck balls at trading, we know that full well. Their drafting is average. Pittsburgh's has been fairly crap for a while. Florida aside from their top picks, also largely crap drafting. NY Rangers, largely crap drafting.

 

[GigaChad]

The only way trading McDavid makes sense is to go full rebuild.

McDavid could fetch any teams 1c, 1d and probably picks or top 6 players.
Drai could fetch 1c, 1d and bottom 6 players.
Our own pick + picks gotten from a trade could give us good top 6 wingers / dmen / goalie.

I could be out of my mind with this one, but if you got all those parts for 2 players, I could pull the trigger if this shitstorm continues and Tippet isn't fired..

 

[Soundwave]

McDavid could fetch any teams 1c, 1d and probably picks or top 6 players.
Drai could fetch 1c, 1d and bottom 6 players.
Our own pick + picks gotten from a trade could give us good top 6 wingers / dmen / goalie.

I could be out of my mind with this one, but if you got all those parts for 2 players, I could pull the trigger if this shitstorm continues and Tippet isn't fired..

McDavid makes the Oilers more money than any player in their history. That includes (yes) Gretzky (because the world has changed a lot from 1987).

I think that being the bottom line, Katz as a business man will never approve a deal unless there is no alternative.

IMO if McDavid asks for a trade or mentions that he won't re-sign at the end of his contract, Katz will basically order the GM to do everything to build a winner/contender *immediately* even if it means trading every draft pick for the next 5-6 drafts.

If it comes to that, then it comes to that. As a business man, you are unlikely to get a business asset as valuable as a Connor McDavid in 30 or 40 draft classes. That's just the business reality and this is a business first, not a hockey soap opera.

I think that is the scorched earth option. If Katz feels like he's losing McDavid, he will pull the emergency rip cord and order whoever the GM is (won't be Holland lol) to trade as many picks as is needed, as many prospects as is needed, whatever it takes to win in a window that satisfies McDavid's camp.

 

[belair]

Trades is not drafting. Since f***ing when did that become the same thing? You are throwing that in because you know full well Pittsburgh's last 15 drafts are largely SHIT.

Anyone can click on the link there and see it. 1 good draft out of 15. One good draft in 15 years. If that's what passes for championship caliber drafting I guess the Oilers should have a Cup or two coming any day now.

Like what you're trying to say doesn't even make logical sense, it's like saying the 90s Oilers were amazing at drafting, when they plainly weren't, they were good at trades for some of their younger assets, sure (getting Weight, Guerin, etc.) but you can't say they drafted those players somehow if it's the same thing ... like what the f***? They were good at trading. That's a different skill set for a GM entirely.

The Oilers suck balls at trading, we know that full well. Their drafting is average. Pittsburgh's has been fairly crap for a while. Florida aside from their top picks, also largely crap drafting. NY Rangers, largely crap drafting.

I explained to you why the trades and picks matter.

Draft well and draft frequently and your team possesses trade capital. Own enough trade capital and other teams are likelier to offer quality players. This is how Pittsburgh built a significant part of their Championship rosters.

The 90s Oilers? Yeah, a big chunk of those teams were built on the remnants of the 80s teams, where they drafted well. Those assets eventually died off heading into the 2000s because they drafted poorly over that period of time.

Anyone who clicks that link should know that drafts yield assets and not necessarily NHL players. Once those assets become property of a team they can just as easily become trade capital. It's ammunition regardless of how a team chooses to utilize it.

 

[Kaptah2]

Trades is not drafting. Since f***ing when did that become the same thing? You are throwing that in because you know full well Pittsburgh's last 15 drafts are largely SHIT.

Anyone can click on the link there and see it. 1 good draft out of 15. One good draft in 15 years. If that's what passes for championship caliber drafting I guess the Oilers should have a Cup or two coming any day now.

Like what you're trying to say doesn't even make logical sense, it's like saying the 90s Oilers were amazing at drafting, when they plainly weren't, they were good at trades for some of their younger assets, sure (getting Weight, Guerin, etc.) but you can't say they drafted those players somehow if it's the same thing ... like what the f***? They were good at trading. That's a different skill set for a GM entirely.

The Oilers suck balls at trading, we know that full well. Their drafting is average. Pittsburgh's has been fairly crap for a while. Florida aside from their top picks, also largely crap drafting. NY Rangers, largely crap drafting.

Your posts don't make any sense because you have decided that you want to win NOW, damn the consequences. So you just keep writing the same quick fix text wall posts over and over again. Guess you think you are being logical.

You are sure that there is a goalie available who'll make our sorry ass middle of the pack team contenders, and we have the assets to acquire him, and he doesn't have a contract saying he can veto a trade to Edmonton? What is his name?

 

[Soundwave]

Your posts don't make any sense because you have decided that you want to win NOW, damn the consequences. So you just keep writing the same quick fix text wall posts over and over again. Guess you think you are being logical.

You are sure that there is a goalie available who'll make our sorry ass middle of the pack team contenders, and we have the assets to acquire him, and he doesn't have a contract saying he can veto a trade to Edmonton? What is his name?

I didn't decide that, a gold sticker coming out of an envelope 7 years ago decides that and clock ticks louder and louder every passing minute.

No one wants to hear the Oilers cry about how hard it is to build around McDavid, that's pathetic. Suck it up and get a goddamn goalie.

This is not rocket science.

There are business realities here too, I don't doubt Katz will order a scorched earth option if he has to before he ever entertains the idea of giving away his most profitable hockey asset. If Holland doesn't get his shit together, that's inevitable.

There is no athlete alive today that makes the Oilers more money in Edmonton, Canada, than Connor McDavid. That is the bottom line (literally).

 

[Kaptah2]

I didn't decide that, a gold sticker coming out of an envelope 7 years ago decides that and clock ticks louder and louder every passing minute.

No one wants to hear the Oilers cry about how hard it is to build around McDavid, that's pathetic. Suck it up and get a goddamn goalie.

This is not rocket science.

I'm amazed that you didn't answer the question. Guess it is easier to just keep ranting than to justify your demands.

 

[Soundwave]

I'm amazed that you didn't answer the question. Guess it is easier to just keep ranting than to justify your demands.

Those aren't demands from me. Those are realities of having a franchise, generational player on your team.

If you don't give them what they want, you are f***ed. You have a limited window to build a contender, and it should be more than doable if you're competent. See also: Cleveland Cavaliers and LeBron James' exit to Miami. Don't want to give him a Scottie Pippen type secondary star to play with for 7+ years? Well you goddamn get what you deserve then and embarrassed on national TV as a sports franchise.

Which by the way I totally called that, not only that he would leave Cleveland but go join his buddy DWade in Miami.

If McDavid expresses a willingness to leave out of frustration (could this summer, next summer, whatever), I think as a business calculus alone (forget hockey shit), Katz pulls an emergency rip cord right then and there.

 

[Kaptah2]

Those aren't demands from me. Those are realities of having a franchise, generational player on your team.

If you don't give them what they want, you are f***ed. You have a limited window to build a contender, and it should be more than doable if you're competent. See also: Cleveland Cavaliers and LeBron James' exit to Miami. Don't want to give him a Scottie Pippen type secondary star to play with for 7+ years? Well you goddamn get what you deserve then and embarrassed on national TV as a sports franchise.

Which by the way I totally called that, not only that he would leave Cleveland but go join his buddy DWade in Miami.

Great. What is the name of the goaltender you want us to trade for, and who is single-handedly going to save our season?

 

[Soundwave]

Great. What is the name of the goaltender you want us to trade for, and who is single-handedly going to save our season?

I would trade for Varlamov. I think a 2nd + Laovie + Koskinen's expiring deal is fair value seeing as how they gain $5 million in cap room next year. I see Sorokin had another great game tonight, 1st
star with a .963 save percentage in a win. C'mon Lou, you really want to be paying $5 million for a back up?

But if they want even more ... I still consider it.

The damage you are doing to the franchise by just giving up on this season is going to permanently damage your relationship to some extent with McDavid and Draisaitl.

They don't need the best goalie in the world. Any time McDavid and Draisaitl have gotten even "pretty good" goaltending the team finishes around 100 points in pace. Any time they don't they finish around 80-ish points.

 

[Kaptah2]

I would trade for Varlamov. I think a 2nd + Laovie + Koskinen's expiring deal is fair value seeing as how they gain $5 million in cap room next year. I see Sorokin had another great game tonight, 1st
star with a .963 save percentage in a win. C'mon Lou, you really want to be paying $5 million for a back up?

But if they want even more ... I still consider it.

Well, you'd have to, because they'll want a lot more.

 

[Soundwave]

Well, you'd have to, because they'll want a lot more.

Which Varlamov tier player has returned "a lot more"? Vegas got Lehner for a 2nd, Chicago got MAF for free.

I would consider moving to a 1st but if I'm moving the 1st, I probably prefer Ullmark, someone who has more run way.

If I have to spend the 1st, I don't lose sleep over it. This is Holland's fault for being a dumb ass if it comes to that, he could have just signed Ullmark or Andersen or someone like that in the summer and bought out Koskinen (2 year cap penalty) instead of Neal (4 year cap penalty).

 

[Kaptah2]

Which Varlamov tier player has returned "a lot more"? Vegas got Lehner for a 2nd, Chicago got MAF for free.

I would consider moving to a 1st but if I'm moving the 1st, I probably prefer Ullmark, someone who has more run way.

If I have to spend the 1st, I don't lose sleep over it. This is Holland's fault for being a dumb ass if it comes to that, he could have just signed Ullmark or Andersen or someone like that and bought out Koskinen (2 year cap penalty) instead of Neal (4 year cap penalty).

He’s got a 16-team no-trade list as part of his deal. I'd be surprised if we weren't in it. See, not so easy after all?

 

[Soundwave]

He’s got a 16-team no-trade list as part of his deal. I'd be surprised if we weren't in it. See, not so easy after all?

Maybe, maybe not. Goalies want to be starters, it's in their nature, it seems pretty clear he's been usurped on Long Island by the younger Sorokin.

This shit is only hard because Holland is a bozo that never prioritizes goaltending, probably now dawning on him how much of an idiotic play it was to bet on Mike Smith.

Like the hockey gods are bending him over and just raw f***ing him up on that one, no vaseline. 3 games in and injured? Out for 2 months and then reinjured again 2 games later. Can't even make this up.

Holland is getting a cold, hard lesson right now. There ain't no Lidstrom to cover up for his goalie boo boos here, senile old fart still thinks he's in 1997.

 

[Kaptah2]

Maybe, maybe not. Goalies want to be starters, it's in their nature, it seems pretty clear he's been usurped on Long Island by the younger Sorokin.

This shit is only hard because Holland is a bozo that never prioritizes goaltending, probably now dawning on him how much of an idiotic play it was to bet on Mike Smith.

Like the hockey gods are bending him over and just raw f***ing him up on that one, no vaseline. 3 games in and injured? Out for 2 months and then reinjured again 2 games later. Can't even make this up.

Holland is getting a cold, hard lesson right now. There ain't no Lidstrom to cover up for his goalie boo boos here, senile old fart still thinks he's in 1997.

Your proposal consists from a lot of wishful thinking, and a lot of Holland bashing. Would be great if it happened, but I very much doubt it.

 

[GOilers88]

Their initial championship core was built through the draft. The center depth, the defense and the goaltending. A lot of those picks turned players were parlayed into players who developed and contributed to the team that won the later Championships.

Nothing is won in Pittsburgh without the draft and proper development. NOTHING. You couldn't be more wrong.

Before you respond, go and look at their draft history dating back to 2000. They literally didn't trade a 1st round pick until the year before they won their first Cup. And that team was 20 games over 0.500. And they traded a handful of their draft busts with that pick for Marian Hossa. So you can see how those 'useless picks' still remain valuable assets.

The very reason their window is closing is due to the mismanagement of that roster and the countless futures that have been purged from that organization trying to salvage what they could of the final years of Crosby, Malkin and Letang.

Where does Edmonton tie into that logic?

I think the Penguins model was quite unique and that it's not the easiest to replicate for success. That said I think Edmonton is in a similar spot sans goalie and should doing their best to imitate it.

The difference is Edmonton doesn't have a very good management team, nor do they have a very good scouting department that is able to identify guys that will fit who are on cheaper deals so they can milk a couple seasons before they require the paydays.

Edmonton always just ends up paying full value for anyone that could be an impact player AFTER they had a breakout which sort of kills the whole idea.

 

[belair]

I think the Penguins model was quite unique and that it's not the easiest to replicate for success. That said I think Edmonton is in a similar spot sans goalie and should doing their best to imitate it.

The difference is Edmonton doesn't have a very good management team, nor do they have a very good scouting department that is able to identify guys that will fit who are on cheaper deals so they can milk a couple seasons before they require the paydays.

Edmonton always just ends up paying full value for anyone that could be an impact player AFTER they had a breakout which sort of kills the whole idea.

I'm not saying Edmonton should replicate the Pittsburgh model. I was simply calling out his quote.

Their model was filling pretty much every vital role via the draft and they were very effective at extending the life of their assets early on. We haven't been as lucky.

There will be a point where a player or player(s) come available on the trade market and we'll be in a position to offer some of our prospects in a deal. It's in our best interest for those trades to not decimate our organizational depth.

 

[GOilers88]

I'm not saying Edmonton should replicate the Pittsburgh model. I was simply calling out his quote.

Their model was filling pretty much every vital role via the draft and they were very effective at extending the life of their assets early on. We haven't been as lucky.

I agree they built their core in the draft, but so have we. The core is there. Like Pittsburgh we should be moving picks and prospects on the regular to acquire impact role players every season and milk what we can out of them before their numbers get pumped.

 

[sOiled]

I sort of agree more with Soundwave. There is a large difference between "drafting well/building through the draft" and "asset management/trades." Obviously the GM oversees both but they are very different skill sets and would be informed by different groups (amateur vs. pro scouting).

The Penguins were able to start with good drafting (as a result of high picks), and then move into the phase of managing their assets and trading prospects to fill out organizational needs once they had a solid core. I think what Soundwave is arguing is that the Oilers had their high picks, and have really failed all their attempts to "asset manage" into a successful team. You can't strictly rely on building through the draft forever.

 

[belair]

I agree they built their core in the draft, but so have we. The core is there. Like Pittsburgh we should be moving picks and prospects on the regular to acquire impact role players every season and milk what we can out of them before their numbers get pumped.

Pittsburgh didn't move those picks until they had a competitive roster. Overall, trading picks and prospects for 'impact' only increases salary and shortens the life of your assets.

If you're talking about flipping guys like Yamamoto, or Benson, or other flatlining prospects for similarly aged guys wife yet to break out, I could probably agree with you, but opportunities to find 'impact' guys are usually few and far between.

 

[belair]

I sort of agree more with Soundwave. There is a large difference between "drafting well/building through the draft" and "asset management/trades." Obviously the GM oversees both but they are very different skill sets and would be informed by different groups (amateur vs. pro scouting).

The Penguins were able to start with good drafting (as a result of high picks), and then move into the phase of managing their assets and trading prospects to fill out organizational needs once they had a solid core. I think what Soundwave is arguing is that the Oilers had their high picks, and have really failed all their attempts to "asset manage" into a successful team. You can't strictly rely on building through the draft forever.

It's not one or the other though. It's both. If you fail to manage your assets well initially, you can't strictly rely on trading with the assets in hand, hoping to find paydirt. That's how teams ultimately find themselves with a short competitive window because that window is ultimately their stockpile of assets paired with a responsibly managed payroll.

If you look at Pittsburgh's rosters, the majority of those players can be traced back to assets acquired through the drafts. Some dating to several years before the Crosby and Malkin drafts. You can actually see how their mismanagement in later seasons trying to recreate an effective third line ultimately ruined what the organization had in terms of depth.