Rumor: Trade Rumor/Speculation Thread XXVI: G Staying Put.

[SnowblindNYR]

Carter is also a center and better then anyone we have.

Kopitar
Richards
Carter

was just insane center depth. That team underperformed hard during the regular season. They weren't a standard 8th seed.

Also, Bergeron is one of the best centers in the game. It took a while for him to get recognized since he's not flashy, but it's nice to see the league realizing how much of a force he is. I hate the B's but he's a class act and a great player.

Seems like that argument only works when it's about another team. If we were an 8th seed "we suck, we're a bubble team fire Sather!"

 

[jerseyjinx94]

I'm not saying that he his better than Tavares either. I think you new elite play from your center group as a whole to win a Cup. Ideally a top 1C. That ain't happening for the Rangers barring a miracle.

Barring that you need a balanced and deep group. The Rangers options right now are too one dimensional, and inconsistent, my opinion.

Well that's fair enough. I do think our Cs are a bit redundant. But I don't think they preclude us from making a run at a Cup.

 

[haohmaru]

When M Richards and especially Bergeron aren't scoring they are doing lots of other things that contribute to winning hockey in the playoffs.

Stepan and Brad Richards right now...not so much. Not to mention if Brassard finds one of his funks. I am actually floored there is any confusion or debate on this.

Just for the record, I'm not arguing that Brad Richards and Derek Stepan are better than Kopitar and Richards, or Bergeron and Krecji. Right now, they aren't.

However, I don't believe that these guys have to be at their peak to win. Kopitar and Richards weren't. Bergeron and Krecji weren't. They won anyway - which means you DON'T need a #1 center to be dominant to win a Cup. You don't. You need a really strong D, consistent G, and timely scoring from all four lines. The Rangers, this year, can certainly bring that. Crobsy has been the best player in the world for many years, with a dominant #2C that would be a #1C on most teams, and have won a single Cup. It's not about down the middle as much as some make it out to be. It's about TEAMS and SYSTEMS.

 

[Jackpot]

Exactly.

Foresight. A plan.

The Rangers will always be competitive, even without a "plan".. Was the Kings plan to win a Cup and then slowly start declining? No, they made a trade to acquire a piece they thought would help get them over the hump and win a Championship. It worked, great..

I understand where the thought process is coming from regarding youth and organizational depth. The only problem with it is there are soooo many variables involved in hockey to actually win a Cup, and most aren't the result of stockpiling picks, prospects, the average age of your roster, your organization's depth chart ranking and so on... I don't think you'll see the Kings hoist another cup in the next decade, was that in their "plan"..

 

[Son of Steinbrenner]

You mean like the Blues weren't willing to give up assets in the trade they made this evening?

I'll bite...

If the Blues traded for JUST Orr what does the trade look like? You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Pugs35]

I'd love it if we were able to do something like that. I'd love it if a team traded for a great young center and started out this season 2-18 or whatever it was. If that happened, we might be able to get him for below his actual value.

It would also be great if a team's star winger wanted out because of personality conflicts with management, but there was only one place he was willing to waive his no-trade clause for and it was us. That would be great, because we would be getting a useful player below his actual value.

You have to react to circumstances. LA wouldn't have traded for Jeff Carter if they were committed to a one-dimensional plan of trudging ahead with the young core of their team, which JJ was a part of. We won't get MSL if we only want to get younger instead of better. Both are mistakes and both are reflective of inflexible thinking, which is a killer both in the hockey management world and in the real business world.

The problem with Sather is he's either reacting to people wanting to come to New York or fixing his own ridiculous mistakes.

He has no long term strategy that I can see. He hops from one big fish he wants to reel in every year to the next. Gomez, Gaborik, Richards, Nash, St. Louis etc. It never ends.

He sees someone who is rumored to want to play in NY and he just gets obsessed with getting them here and then once he does he just sprinkles some Taylor Pyatt's and some John Mitchell's around them and calls it a day.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Just for the record, I'm not arguing that Brad Richards and Derek Stepan are better than Kopitar and Richards, or Bergeron and Krecji. Right now, they aren't.

However, I don't believe that these guys have to be at their peak to win. Kopitar and Richards weren't. Bergeron and Krecji weren't. They won anyway - which means you DON'T need a #1 center to be dominant to win a Cup. You don't. You need a really strong D, consistent G, and timely scoring from all four lines. The Rangers, this year, can certainly bring that. Crobsy has been the best player in the world for many year, with a dominant #2C that would be a #1C on most teams, and have won a single Cup. It's not about down the middle as much as some make it out to be. It's about TEAMS and SYSTEMS.

It's also about matchups.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Miles, not that season. Brown was a beast, way better then Cally and Justin Williams is fantastic. He's aging now, but was great that year and in the playoffs.

You're right, our wingers are better, though. Thing is, no team has won a cup since the lockout led by their wingers.

So once again, looking at the recipe for success, what makes you think we're going to be the exception?

Not saying it's impossible, just saying it's highly highly highly unlikely.

When you're trying to do something that's been done many times before and successfully and you're going against competitors in the same business, reinventing the wheel and going a complete opposite way is usually a recipe for failure or in our case, mediocrity.

Look, I want this team to win, as does everyone on these boards. Year in and year out I watch our D play amazing and Hank stand on his head while watching our forwards shut down largely due to the lack of cogs in the middle.

Brassard was great last year, but he couldn't do it all because Richards and Stepan flopped like pancakes.

Why should I think this year is going to be any different? Especially since Stepan has been a pancake all year!

Most teams are led to a Cup by their goaltender...

 

[AHB*]

Man, by the talks in this thread you would think we are an abysmal team with no direction that needs a complete overhaul.

I didn't read anyone saying that.

What I've read and agreed with is that this team, while playing well and having some very nice pieces is missing the key component that EVERY SINGLE GREAT TEAM HAS.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

At the end of the day, I am not posting about this at midnight because I want them to lose.

I really do hope it works out. Would be nice not to be the guy pissing in everyone's Cheerios.

 

[jskramer83]

You mean like the Blues weren't willing to give up assets in the trade they made this evening?

Again, Ryan Miller is a top 5 player at his position in the NHL. Ryan Callahan is probably not even a top line player on most teams.

Now if we were going to be trading Rick Nash, or Hank then yes you can expect a return like the sabers got for Miller.

 

[haohmaru]

I didn't read anyone saying that.

What I've read and agreed with is that this team, while playing well and having some very nice pieces is missing the key component that EVERY SINGLE GREAT TEAM HAS.

Which is D and G. Not C.

 

[AHB*]

Most teams are led to a Cup by their goaltender...

Wow, you are completely missing my point. An average goalie gets hot, quite often. You can't fake it with a center.

Are you purposely not reading and just responding to my posts? I don't get it.....

Mediocre goalies go on runs all the time. You can win teh cup without a great goalie. You can with a cup with an average or slightly above average goalie who gets hot. THAT IS MY POINT.

 

[haohmaru]

It's also about matchups.

With you on that. Yup.

 

[Thirty One]

There's not something magical about the playoffs that makes it so teams with their talent concentrated at center ice will win at a higher rate.

The '04 Flames had Craig Conroy as their top center (and no offense from their blueline) and would have won the Cup if it weren't for a blown call. The '06 Oilers and Shawn Horcoff also were a game from winning the Cup. Were these teams doomed from the start because of their personnel?

 

[Kakko]

I can stat surf too, Richards had 4 consecutive season in which he scored 60+ points, including 70+ and 80.

He also does everything else when he isn't putting points up in the box score.

And when you are #2 behind Kopitar, you can afford to have an off year in the regular season. Coincidently, Richards scored 15 points in 20 games in the playoffs.

stat surf? Those were his stats that season. He had a down year.
Just like Stepan, from a yearly upward trend suddenly fell this year. Who says he won't be good again in the playoffs?

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Wow, you are completely missing my point. An average goalie gets hot, quite often. You can't fake it with a center.

Are you purposely not reading and just responding to my posts? I don't get it.....

Mediocre goalies go on runs all the time. You can win teh cup without a great goalie. You can with a cup with an average or slightly above average goalie who gets hot. THAT IS MY POINT.

I understand your point.

And average to good Cs get hot in the playoffs and their team goes to the Cup.

I see your point - I just think it's really bad.

By the way - a "mediocre" goalie winning the Cup is rare. And even if he does, and he gets hot, he is still LEADING them to the Cup.

If Derick Brassard scores at a PPG level and we win the Cup, are you going to start saying he's an elite C? I just completely disagree with your point.

 

[aufheben]

Which is D and G. Not C.

www.hockeydb.com

 

[SnowblindNYR]

There's not something magical about the playoffs that makes it so teams with their talent concentrated at center ice will win at a higher rate.

The '04 Flames had Craig Conroy as their top center (and no offense from their blueline) and would have won the Cup if it weren't for a blown call. The '06 Oilers and Shawn Horcoff also were a game from winning the Cup. Were these teams doomed from the start because of their personnel?

It's funny, every time I read a post by you, it's the only one making sense. Literally every time. Get these logical arguments out of here and instead keep throwing out tired cliches.

 

[AHB*]

Which is D and G. Not C.

Oh really. Ok, let me throw some history at you.

2013 - Toews
2012 - Kopitar, Richards, Carter
2011 - Bergeron , Kreicji
2010 - Toews
2009 - Crosby, Malkin
2008 - Datsyuk, Zetterberg
2007 - Getzlaf
2006 - Eric Staal


That's every year since the lockout. EVERY SINGLE YEAR. The only arguable team without an elite center was that Boston squad. And they had 2 centers, who are the #1's on our team.

And, personally, I think Bergeron should qualify as an elite center.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

There's not something magical about the playoffs that makes it so teams with their talent concentrated at center ice will win at a higher rate.

The '04 Flames had Craig Conroy as their top center (and no offense from their blueline) and would have won the Cup if it weren't for a blown call. The '06 Oilers and Shawn Horcoff also were a game from winning the Cup. Were these teams doomed from the start because of their personnel?

Lord have Mercy, thank you.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

The Rangers will always be competitive, even without a "plan".. Was the Kings plan to win a Cup and then slowly start declining? No, they made a trade to acquire a piece they thought would help get them over the hump and win a Championship.

I understand where the thought process is coming from regarding youth and organizational depth. The only problem with it is there are soooo many variables involved in hockey to actually win a Cup, and most aren't the result of stockpiling picks, prospects, the average age of your roster and so on... I don't think you'll see the Kings hoist another cup in the next decade, was that in their "plan"..

The Rangers haven't hoisted a Cup in two decades. And before that over five decades. If they do anything that causes them to hoist another in my lifetime (only got to see one), i'll be able to die in peace.

 

[aufheben]

I'm over it. Auf out. If the only refutation to all this is the 1995 Devils and teams that didn't even win the Cup, I don't see where this is going. To each his own.

 

[AHB*]

I understand your point.

And average to good Cs get hot in the playoffs and their team goes to the Cup.

I see your point - I just think it's really bad.

By the way - a "mediocre" goalie winning the Cup is rare. And even if he does, and he gets hot, he is still LEADING them to the Cup.

If Derick Brassard scores at a PPG level and we win the Cup, are you going to start saying he's an elite C? I just completely disagree with your point.

When was the last time an average center led his team to a cup, seriously....

 

[haohmaru]

Wow, you are completely missing my point. An average goalie gets hot, quite often. You can't fake it with a center.

Are you purposely not reading and just responding to my posts? I don't get it.....

Mediocre goalies go on runs all the time. You can win teh cup without a great goalie. You can with a cup with an average or slightly above average goalie who gets hot. THAT IS MY POINT.

I think we've made the point, multiple times, that teams have won cups without elite "C's." You can't selectively talk about guys careers where they've had mediocre regular seasons and their team has won the cup and then say they were elite. Brad Richards was pursued two years ago because he was perceived (and his career speaks to this) as an elite 1C. That's why the Rangers signed him. If the NYR win the cup this year and Richards has 19 points in 22 games or whatever, people will look back and say they wouldn't have won it without Brad despite whatever we think of him THIS day.

Cups are won on D, G, and timely goals. The Rangers are decent up the middle. Decent enough, with their D and G and W, that they DO have a chance.