Rumor: Trade Rumor/Speculation Thread XXV: It's a Marty Party [*Mod Warning post #132]

[AHB*]

Nobody is answering for the VERY real possibility that given the slumps of two all stars AND all the other FA losses and injuries that we may have actually done WORSE that season and missed the PO's if we had not made the Nash trade. Based on Nash's actual performance last year it's actually fair to assume we could have missed the PO's. That doesn't mean it's a guarantee we would have but it is fair to assume it. Since that is the case it's simply ridiculous to state with certainty that the Nash trade hurt the team last year. Gab and Rich slumping DEFINITELY hurt the team there is NO arguing that. Injuries like Staal and Sauer DEFINITELY hurt the team.

Everyone is saying that it was a sum of the parts. You're the ONLY one dismissing the fact that one of those sums is irrelevant in the Nash trade.

It's not about how Nash performed last year, it's about how the TEAM performed. We disrupted some great chemistry that was built over multiple years.

Sure, Gaborik and Richards slumping had an effect on the team. But don't you think that MAYBE their slumping was somewhat relative to Nash coming in and becoming the star of the team. Taking time and pieces of their roles on the team away from them?

Gaborik went from Torts' go to guy to almost an afterthought who was constantly benched in critical moments.

Staal's injury hurt as well, although I though our defense was spectacular. Not to mention, the season before, we were in first place for the first half of the season without him.

Add to that the fact that Sauer had next to nothing to do with that team that went to the ECF.


YOu're right, there's no arguing that the injuries and the slumping played a major part in the setback for this team. But there's also no arguing that trading two of our most important players also did.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Sauer wasn't even part of that ECF run. We returned Gaborik and Richards both of which had trouble meshing with Nash who needs the puck the majority of the time to be good (not saying I don't like him). Fedotenko was not brought back, neither was Prust.

Your facts are actually way way off.

We didn't return 5 key guys, Feds, Prust, Anisimov, Dubinsky, Mithcell. That's 5 of our bottom 6. The two best of which were traded for Nash.

I don't really understand how you can actually think that completely overhauling a team that finished 1st in the EC, 1 point out of the presidents trophy and went 2 games from the cup final, was a major mistake.

The Nash trade wasn't the sole part of it, but those 2 guys were key cogs all year. It would be rather easy to argue that Dubi and Anisimov were 2 of the 10 most important guys on that team.

Sauer returning last year makes the team better that's the point. How are they way off? You're making an error in reading. I said seven names that had NOTHING to do with the Nash trade. We lost Dubs and Artie bc of the Nash trade so why would I have featured them in my list of things that happened outside of the Nash trade? See the bold. That's another error in reading. Overhauling the team means way more than simply the Nash trade. I'm saying how can people ignore all those other moves AND also ignore Gabs and Rich not showing up. THAT to me is insane.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Everyone is saying that it was a sum of the parts. You're the ONLY one dismissing the fact that one of those sums is irrelevant in the Nash trade.

It's not about how Nash performed last year, it's about how the TEAM performed. We disrupted some great chemistry that was built over multiple years.

Sure, Gaborik and Richards slumping had an effect on the team. But don't you think that MAYBE their slumping was somewhat relative to Nash coming in and becoming the star of the team. Taking time and pieces of their roles on the team away from them?

Gaborik went from Torts' go to guy to almost an afterthought who was constantly benched in critical moments.

Staal's injury hurt as well, although I though our defense was spectacular. Not to mention, the season before, we were in first place for the first half of the season without him.

Add to that the fact that Sauer had next to nothing to do with that team that went to the ECF.


YOu're right, there's no arguing that the injuries and the slumping played a major part in the setback for this team. But there's also no arguing that trading two of our most important players also did.

"Nash is the only thing that disrupted the chemistry and submarined the team. If we had kept Dubi and Artie we definitely would have been better last year than we were in 2011" That is the thought process I am arguing against. I dunno what the heck you think I'm arguing against.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Results based on the '12-13 team being worse than '11-12.

Im not going to go down the rabbit hole with your vague "variables" argument. I could make stuff up about how the Nash trade effected Richards and Gaborik if I wanted to.

And they were worse based on what? The answer is not losing games. What CAUSED them to lose games? If some people believe the Nash trade was a contributor that's fine. But if they want to pawn that idea off as fact I love to take up that debate. it isn't fact. It can be a logical guess. But equally as logical is saying that the team would have been WORSE without Nash. Richards and Gabs in FACT hurt the team last year. Injuries i FACT hurt the team. It cannot be proven factually that the Nash trade hurt the team. It may have helped it be better than it would have been if we had kept Dubs and Artie

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The 2011-12 team was if nothing else, a group greater than the sum of its parts.

Disrupting that chemistry, and depth via the Nash trade was a HUGE problem. Yes Rochards and Gaborik slumping was also a problem.

Yep. Theres been so many arguments about that '11-12 team, but the reason I think I enjoyed them so much is because, as a Ranger fan for 25 years, I NEVER got to see a team overperform. Never. Thats a valuable thing when you have a team capable of playing so far over their heads.

Thats a team that needs to be tweaked and added to. The Nash trade became a 6 month obsession with Sather, and I think it caused a lot of distractions and poor decisions.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

And they were worse based on what?

Not being a similar team to the year before, thanks to the Nash trade and other poor decisions.

Sure, Richards and Gaborik's struggles were a factor, but I think they are red herrings more than anything.

 

[Bardof425*]

I'm pretty calm. Don't know what would indicate otherwise.

Redundant? They are 4th liners. Role players. Both play the PK and they do it very well. Boyle has been perfectly fine on LW. And they are hands down better hockey players than Derek
Dorsett.

Bias? Maybe honest and realistic. Dorsett has been less than impressive here. He is not a great skater. When he was healthy he was not taking the body enough...a step behind the play therefore not finishing enough checks. Trade Dorsett and get your 6th or 7th back and move on. I hate that MSG makes a "Beginnings" for every damn player. Dorsett is not core piece for the future of this team. He is a mercenary type hockey player.

Too much Dorsett hate here. Boyle does one thing better than Dorsett; faceless. And btw, yes AV had BB taking key draws at the end of the game and he lost 2 of 3. Dorsett has better hands, is a better skater, he's tougher, better on the pk (I know that's blasphemy but I think it's true) and he can change momentum with his physicality (real physicality, not Boyle style kiddie punches). Trade Boyle and you have a gritty, quick and offensively capable 4th. And the pk will be just fine. Hopefully those around the league think as highly of BB as you do so we can a good pick.

 

[Ghost of jas]

The reason for 'breaking up' that squad was that it's limitations were exposed in the playoffs, and that management took the calculated risk that it had gone as far as it could as it was constituted. And, I'm not so certain they weren't correct in that assessment.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Not being a similar team to the year before, thanks to the Nash trade and other poor decisions.

Sure, Richards and Gaborik's struggles were a factor, but I think they are red herrings more than anything.

How can you prove this? Your opinion can very well be wrong or right.

How do you KNOW that last years team would have been better with Artie and Dubs? In 11 we had a still playing well gabs and Richards as well as Staal, Feds, prust, Mitchell, and even Rupp was slightly better. Take out Dubs and Artie in 11 and insert Nash. Maybe we actually go to the cup there's no way to prove that though so I'd never state it as fact.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Too much Dorsett hate here. Boyle does one thing better than Dorsett; faceless. And btw, yes AV had BB taking key draws at the end of the game and he lost 2 of 3. Dorsett has better hands, is a better skater, he's tougher, better on the pk (I know that's blasphemy but I think it's true) and he can change momentum with his physicality (real physicality, not Boyle style kiddie punches). Trade Boyle and you have a gritty, quick and offensively capable 4th. And the pk will be just fine. Hopefully those around the league think as highly of BB as you do so we can a good pick.

Boyle is also better at not being an idiot on skates.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Too much Dorsett hate here. Boyle does one thing better than Dorsett; faceless. And btw, yes AV had BB taking key draws at the end of the game and he lost 2 of 3. Dorsett has better hands, is a better skater, he's tougher, better on the pk (I know that's blasphemy but I think it's true) and he can change momentum with his physicality (real physicality, not Boyle style kiddie punches). Trade Boyle and you have a gritty, quick and offensively capable 4th. And the pk will be just fine. Hopefully those around the league think as highly of BB as you do so we can a good pick.

Agreed. Dorsett had been hated since he came here, no idea why. Outside of the first dozen games when the team sucked and he was taking dumb penalties he's played well for us. He's also a pest and is effective at getting other teams off their have.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The reason for 'breaking up' that squad was that it's limitations were exposed in the playoffs, and that management took the calculated risk that it had gone as far as it could as it was constituted. And, I'm not so certain they weren't correct in that assessment.

Usually tweaks and additions do the trick there.

An overhaul of half the forwards was an interesting way to go about it.

 

[AHB*]

"Nash is the only thing that disrupted the chemistry and submarined the team. If we had kept Dubi and Artie we definitely would have been better last year than we were in 2011" That is the thought process I am arguing against. I dunno what the heck you think I'm arguing against.

I'm telling you no one is arguing that. Of course the injuries had something to do with it, of course the underperforming had something to do with it, but it's incredibly obvious that trading two of our long term, homegrown, best pieces for him had something to do with it as well.

It's always a sum of its parts. The Nash trade was a MASSIVE piece of those parts and potentially relative to the slumps of both Gaborik and Richards.

You're arguing slumps for these guys, I'm arguing that their diminished roles due to Nash played a major role in that.

I also don't agree about Sauer. Would he have made the team better, sure, but he wasn't a real part of that ECF team in my eyes, anyways. So adding him is like adding a rental.

The two biggest things in my eyes was the Nash trade and the Staal injury.

 

[Vitto79]

So what's the chances Sather signs both Girardi and Callahan? We are all expecting atleast one gone so it would be somewhat of a shock. Especially Cally giving in for say 6 million ( which is still to high IMO ,lol )

 

[Levitate]

The reason for 'breaking up' that squad was that it's limitations were exposed in the playoffs, and that management took the calculated risk that it had gone as far as it could as it was constituted. And, I'm not so certain they weren't correct in that assessment.

I really hated how Torts' teams just lost any shred of offensive creativity in the playoffs and I feel like that 2011-2012 team SHOULD have gone to the finals if they weren't dragging a useless 4th line and played entirely uncreative hockey. They weren't the most skilled team but their complete lack of a breakout and always playing the dump and chase game just killed any skill they did have. That and the dreadful power play.

It's a weird combination of some things Torts did that made them a better team and got them that far, and other things Torts did that limited how far they could actually go

 

[Levitate]

So what's the chances Sather signs both Girardi and Callahan? We are all expecting atleast one gone so it would be somewhat of a shock. Especially Cally giving in for say 6 million ( which is still to high IMO ,lol )

Seems unlikely unless Callahan really moves off of his demands. I still think they sign Girardi though

 

[Vitto79]

No problem keeping Boyle Moore Carcillo and Dorsett for the playoffs don't trade any of them

I agree. We are always trade trade trade when in reality teams in the rangers spot don't sell depth at the deadline. God forbid they try and upset teams and win it all.

 

[Trxjw]

No it didn't. It proved that trading core guys while also letting 3 walk in free agency while two more top 3 guys have the worst years of their careers because they are either injured and/or out of shape can really disrupt a team. Not to get into it again but everytime someone mentions this again I have to comment because it's so dismissive of how many variables there were. It's like if I'm testing whether food tastes better with mustard. I apply jam, mustard, arsenic, rotted dog sh** and soda all at the same exact time. Then I come to the conclusion that the mustard disrupted the flavor while dismissing the presence of all the other things that were wrong in the mix which likely played a much bigger role

Umm, what? You say it didn't, and then in the very next sentence you say it did. I never said that the Nash trade alone torpedoed the season. I simply said it disrupted the team. Not exactly sure how you agreeing with me disproves that.

 

[Crease]

Are we still rehashing the effects of the Nash trade? I thought it was pretty clear that a combination of things caused last year's disappointing season, not just that trade.

 

[Chief]

This is why I don't like Dreger. He speculates too often.

And you know that he and every other hockey reporter and "insider" is hoping they haven't been scooped on the biggest trade of the season by an x-football player/radio host.

 

[jniklast]

The 11-12 team with similarly underperforming Richards and Gaborik wouldn't have been any better in 12-13.

 

[NYGBleedBlueNYR]

#derailedagain

Deadline can't come fast enough.

If neither Cally or Girardi appear TRULY close to resigning by midnight tonight I would scratch both.

I'd rather potentially eat a couple L's now than lose those assets for nothing in July.

 

[GregSirico]

I wonder if all this stalling .. is Cally coming down to earth on his contract demands ...

 

[Tackaberry]

Espo shoots and scores!

http://deadspin.com/phil-esposito-on-callahan-st-louis-trade-rumor-what-1532901976

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Espo shoots and scores!

http://deadspin.com/phil-esposito-on-callahan-st-louis-trade-rumor-what-1532901976

Brooks is really getting a raw deal with this particular situation. He was actually the first to report a Callahan for St. Louis swap was NOT going to go down that way.

All about reputation in this case....and Espo being a cranky old man.