Speculation: Trade Rumor/Speculation Thread XXIV: C'est la St. Louis?

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Yeah but there is a smart way of doing it. If Kesler is on the decline and Miller is on the rise I'd rather keep the guy coming up and get more use out of him. It's situational, but I firmly believe it's best to keep Miller long term than acquire a declining Kesler.

I understand that, but I'd like for the Rangers to win a cup in the next three or four years though. Kesler helps out more than Miller in that category.

I think people are really overrating Miller. He's looked good when playing at all levels outside of the NHL, but when he has played in the NHL he has looked completely lost. I know that is due to his age and he will get better with time, but I don't think he is as valuable as we think. If the report about the potential Kesler trade was true, they would be asking for someone like Stepan, not Miller.

 

[Larrybiv]

I'm just saying that the kid doesn't presently have the game to step in and play 23-25 MPG against a line like the Crosby line in the playoffs. You are sacrificing the present for the future with this potential trade. You would be hoping that Vatanen can eventually put it together defensively to become a top 2 defenseman? I don't know what this kid will become, but I don't want to trade Girardi for an unknown just because people say Vatanen has upside. He is no sure thing, and I am not trading Girardi unless I get a sure thing.

There u go, thats it in a nutshell. Please forward to Sather, and play keep away from Dan.

 

[AHB*]

What can Callahan really fetch in a trade? He can't fetch MSL from all indications. I don't think he is as valuable as we like to think.

Because Callahan can't return MSL he's going to fetch less then we expect? Look at every past trade deadline, it's pretty easy to see he'll fetch a decent amount. Compared to guys like Clowe, Jagr, Iginla, typical rentals, etc, who all returned 1st round picks or multiple seconds.

MSL is the highest scoring NHL player over the last 5 years. The only reason Calyl for MSL was discussed isb ecause of his NMC and forcing SY's hand.

There is no way Cally is worth MSL, but that doesn't mean he can't still return a pretty penny.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I'm just saying that the kid doesn't presently have the game to step in and play 23-25 MPG against a line like the Crosby line in the playoffs. You are sacrificing the present for the future with this potential trade. You would be hoping that Vatanen can eventually put it together defensively to become a top 2 defenseman? I don't know what this kid will become, but I don't want to trade Girardi for an unknown just because people say Vatanen has upside. He is no sure thing, and I am not trading Girardi unless I get a sure thing.

Just for the sake of arguement, we do have Klein, who the consensus on these boards seems to be underwhelmed has had to play big shut down minutes in the West, and has been a big playoff performer in the past. I could see him slotted next to McDonagh and doing fine. I guess you could argue that it leaves our third pair exposed and that's true, but it's impossible to imagine trading Girardi and being an equally deep defense corp without him. To the latter part, I don't necessarily disagree with you that Vatanen presents a risk, but couldn't you just as easily say you don't know what you'll be getting out of Girardi the next six years as you could of Vatanen. Nothing's guaranteed, but from watching him in Anaheim and then for Finland, I'd say Vatanen is already an NHL defensemen, it's just a matter of how much better he gets. For Girardi, he's a top pairing guy now, it's just a matter of how much worse he gets throughout his contract.

 

[NYGBleedBlueNYR]

I'm just saying that the kid doesn't presently have the game to step in and play 23-25 MPG against a line like the Crosby line in the playoffs. You are sacrificing the present for the future with this potential trade. You would be hoping that Vatanen can eventually put it together defensively to become a top 2 defenseman? I don't know what this kid will become, but I don't want to trade Girardi for an unknown just because people say Vatanen has upside. He is no sure thing, and I am not trading Girardi unless I get a sure thing.

And if Girardi won't sign?

 

[Clown Fiesta]

I understand that, but I'd like for the Rangers to win a cup in the next three or four years though. Kesler helps out more than Miller in that category.

I think people are really overrating Miller. He's looked good when playing at all levels outside of the NHL, but when he has played in the NHL he has looked completely lost. I know that is due to his age and he will get better with time, but I don't think he is as valuable as we think. If the report about the potential Kesler trade was true, they would be asking for someone like Stepan, not Miller.

MSL could help us more than Kesler IMO and having Miller to replace Callahan style of play would be good. That said yes Kesler probably would help more now, but I think it didn't be our first choice.

Also saw a tweet yesterday might have been Dreger saying they don't Kesler would waive his NTC to play for AV.

I don't think Miller had looked lost, I don't think he was ready last year at all but saw marked improvement this season. He's also only 20. Kreider looked lost last season too.

 

[AHB*]

I understand that, but I'd like for the Rangers to win a cup in the next three or four years though. Kesler helps out more than Miller in that category.

I think people are really overrating Miller. He's looked good when playing at all levels outside of the NHL, but when he has played in the NHL he has looked completely lost. I know that is due to his age and he will get better with time, but I don't think he is as valuable as we think. If the report about the potential Kesler trade was true, they would be asking for someone like Stepan, not Miller.

Overrating a 20 year old? I think you're underrating him. It's laughable to trade our top prospects for players that are either

A) at the end of their line
or
B) so injured over the past few years, that it's unlikely they'll hold up long term.

Kesler hasn't been himself in the last couple seasons. He was mediocre this olympics. You're living off nostalgia.

But, Sather, Rinse, Repeat.

Trade prospects and picks for big, washed up names, sign them to big FA contracts instead of growing our own players, like every successful team.

 

[Todd Harvey]

I have a feeling if Cally is dealt itll be something completely different than MSL or what weve heard from St. Louis. Just a hunch.

Could be. Could be Yzerman is working on flipping Callahan to get what he wants, someone signed.
That might be the holdup.

I agree with AIL too; Glencross could be pricey.

speaking of flipping, dont LOL, but a guy like McIlrath, who played up in that area in juniors, could be just what Burke is looking for.
Just dont know what NYR truly think of McIlrath right now.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Could be. Could be Yzerman is working on flipping Callahan to get what he wants, someone signed.
That might be the holdup.

I agree with AIL too; Glencross could be pricey.

speaking of flipping, dont LOL, but a guy like McIlrath, who played up in that area in juniors, could be just what Burke is looking for.
Just dont know what NYR truly think of McIlrath right now.

I think they won't let him fail, not yet anyway. They are determined he was a good pick. Which if he can come in and play in the next year or so I think everything will be fine.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Just for the sake of arguement, we do have Klein, who the consensus on these boards seems to be underwhelmed has had to play big shut down minutes in the West, and has been a big playoff performer in the past. I could see him slotted next to McDonagh and doing fine. I guess you could argue that it leaves our third pair exposed and that's true, but it's impossible to imagine trading Girardi and being an equally deep defense corp without him. To the latter part, I don't necessarily disagree with you that Vatanen presents a risk, but couldn't you just as easily say you don't know what you'll be getting out of Girardi the next six years as you could of Vatanen. Nothing's guaranteed, but from watching him in Anaheim and then for Finland, I'd say Vatanen is already an NHL defensemen, it's just a matter of how much better he gets. For Girardi, he's a top pairing guy now, it's just a matter of how much worse he gets throughout his contract.

Girardi has a much better chance of being a top pair defenseman for the next six years than Vatanen, IMO. The style that he plays isn't conducive to breaking down. He doesn't rely on his skating or offensive game, which usually break down as a player gets older. Worst case scenario, Girardi is playing on your second or third defensive pair in five years and he is giving you solid defense and a veteran presence.

 

[AHB*]

Girardi not on for morning skate, Callahan is.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

And if Girardi won't sign?

Then Sather needs to give in and give him the extra 500k per year that he wants and an extra year. How is an extra 3M and 1 year going to hamper the Ranger's cap in five years? It won't. Giving in to Callahan will hamper the cap situation, but giving into Girardi won't since Girardi is asking for a very fair and team friendly contract while Callahan is asking for a ridiculous contract.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Girardi not on for morning skate, Callahan is.

It's an optional skate.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

MSL could help us more than Kesler IMO and having Miller to replace Callahan style of play would be good. That said yes Kesler probably would help more now, but I think it didn't be our first choice.

Also saw a tweet yesterday might have been Dreger saying they don't Kesler would waive his NTC to play for AV.

I don't think Miller had looked lost, I don't think he was ready last year at all but saw marked improvement this season. He's also only 20. Kreider looked lost last season too.

Didn't AV and Kesler have problems a few years ago?

 

[Gardner McKay]

And if Girardi won't sign?

How do we go from a deal likely to get done to impasse to he won't sign? We knew there was a difference between the 2 parties (not a very large one either) but how does that get turned into he won't sign?

 

[Gardner McKay]

Then Sather needs to give in and give him the extra 500k per year that he wants and an extra year. How is an extra 3M and 1 year going to hamper the Ranger's cap in five years? It won't. Giving in to Callahan will hamper the cap situation, but giving into Girardi won't since Girardi is asking for a very fair and team friendly contract while Callahan is asking for a ridiculous contract.

It is not. Not sure if you saw the article on how Sather negotiates but him not caving won't come as a surprise.

Does any one have that article?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Overrating a 20 year old? I think you're underrating him. It's laughable to trade our top prospects for players that are either

A) at the end of their line
or
B) so injured over the past few years, that it's unlikely they'll hold up long term.

Kesler hasn't been himself in the last couple seasons. He was mediocre this olympics. You're living off nostalgia.

But, Sather, Rinse, Repeat.

Trade prospects and picks for big, washed up names, sign them to big FA contracts instead of growing our own players, like every successful team.

Thats not the point. You would be trading Miller for Kesler because Kesler is a lot better of a player right now and will be for the next few years even if he does eventually break down. If you are going to try to win a cup, you are going to have to give up your prospects for the players that will help your team win the cup.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Girardi has a much better chance of being a top pair defenseman for the next six years than Vatanen, IMO. The style that he plays isn't conducive to breaking down. He doesn't rely on his skating or offensive game, which usually break down as a player gets older. Worst case scenario, Girardi is playing on your second or third defensive pair in five years and he is giving you solid defense and a veteran presence.

I guess my point is there isn't really a sure thing to be found here. I agree with you that Girardi could still play tough minutes for many years. Though he could also turn into a Regehr or Phillips or (gulp) Zanon in a few years and be an ok third pairing guy like you say. Now, that isn't quite the worst case scenario, unless we're allowing the worst case scenario for Vatanen is that he maxes out as a Diaz third pairing offensive guy. In any case, that worst case scenario for Girardi becomes a lot worse when you're paying him 6mil a year. Whereas Vatanen will be a lot more cost effective, particularly if he doesn't get any better.

 

[Kokoschka]

How do we go from a deal likely to get done to impasse to he won't sign? We knew there was a difference between the 2 parties (not a very large one either) but how does that get turned into he won't sign?

rongos, pls, as some of you guys would say. Could be management applying pressure. Honestly, what are his demands? 5.75 @ 6 years? I'd do that, he could get 6.5 at the free agent market.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It is not. Not sure if you saw the article on how Sather negotiates but him not caving won't come as a surprise.

Does any one have that article?

I saw it, but it would be stupid to not cave in with Girardi. Doesn't really hurt the cap in the future to cave in. Its kills the Rangers chances for the next few years if he doesn't.

 

[NYGBleedBlueNYR]

How do we go from a deal likely to get done to impasse to he won't sign? We knew there was a difference between the 2 parties (not a very large one either) but how does that get turned into he won't sign?

MSL went from respected to ******* in hours.

NONE of us no whats really going on.

Girardi could easily have decided he'd rather be a UFA than sign.

 

[Gardner McKay]

rongos, pls, as some of you guys would say. Could be management applying pressure. Honestly, what are his demands? 5.75 @ 6 years? I'd do that, he could get 6.5 at the free agent market.

That is what I think it is. I guess what I said was taken the wrong way. I was a implying that any indication of him not wanting to sign would be BS based on how negotiations have gone so far.

 

[RGY]

Give Girardi $5.5 million over 6 years and see what he says.

 

[Gardner McKay]

MSL went from respected to ******* in hours.

NONE of us no whats really going on.

Girardi could easily have decided he'd rather be a UFA than sign.

Read what you just said very carefully.

If none of us really have any idea what is going on, then how can we judge MSL and lose respect for him if we are unaware of what is truly going on.

Could Girardi have made that decision? I guess it is possible but personally I doubt it.

 

[Kokoschka]

That is what I think it is. I guess what I said was taken the wrong way. I was a implying that any indication of him not wanting to sign would be BS based on how negotiations have gone so far.

Do you recall who leaked that information? If the Rangers did it, I'd seriously ask myself why. You can tell the guy "no dice, buddy" in person. But sending this message via the media is quite a big gamble.

Players' managers are a lot of things, but one thing I'd guess you won't find is stupidity. If you piss the guy off and if he has a big ego (which isn't unheard of in the management sector) you put the negotiations at risk.