Rumor: Trade Rumor/Speculation Thread XIX: The Olympic Freeze

[AlternateSideParking]

I couldn't have looked at that in a vacuum better than you if I tried.

Ankle injury leading to change in style of play for half a season + one stupid locker room incident and he won't transfer his success to the NHL?

Forget all that. When was the last time the Rangers drafted a 3rd rounder who became a half-decent goal scorer in the NHL?

1989, and Zamuner was a checker who didnt even contribute to the franchise.

Unless, of course, you consider Moore a goal scorer.

 

[Raspewtin]

Forget all that. When was the last time the Rangers drafted a 3rd rounder who became a half-decent goal scorer in the NHL?

1989, and Zamuner was a checker who didnt even contribute to the franchise.

Unless, of course, you consider Moore a goal scorer.

What do past third round failures have to do with Anthony Duclair? Nothing at all.

 

[GAGLine]

Forget all that. When was the last time the Rangers drafted a 3rd rounder who became a half-decent goal scorer in the NHL?

1989, and Zamuner was a checker who didnt even contribute to the franchise.

Unless, of course, you consider Moore a goal scorer.

And what does that have to do with Duclair's chances? Absolutely nothing.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

That's who the Rangers need to do business with. Chivago, Boston, San Jose, Colorado, LA etc.

Those teams are elite and have players/prospects who are going to be blocked for a while, therefore making them expendable.

No more Blue Jackets and training camp castoffs.

Agree 110%. If Cally has to go, you make teams compete against each other for his services. Demand a first and a prospect like Nieto, Etem/Raekell/Smith-Pelly, Khoklachev, that Finnish kid Chicago has, etc.

Once Vanek sets the market, we'll all know what they can get back.

 

[Raspewtin]

Have a feeling Callahan goes before Vanek, just my opinion.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Have a feeling Callahan goes before Vanek, just my opinion.

You might be right as the Rangers play a game on trade deadline day. So if nothing is resolved they're gonna have some vacant roster spots for that game which means they're gonna have some emergency callups from Hartford, or this might be done a day earlier.

Two and a half weeks to go.

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

You might be right as the Rangers play a game on trade deadline day. So if nothing is resolved they're gonna have some vacant roster spots for that game which means they're gonna have some emergency callups from Hartford, or this might be done a day earlier.

Two and a half weeks to go.

Miller could be called up and Richards moves back to wing once Callahan gets traded.. lots of options from now till the deadline..

 

[Trxjw]

Marian Hossa fetched Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito and a 1st round pick. Kovalchuk fetched Oduya, Nik Bergfors, Patrice Cormier and a 1st. Those were some of the biggest deadline deals post-lockout. There isn't a lot of significant value there and both of them were considerably better players than Callahan. 1st rounders are great, but only if they can be turned into a legitimate NHL talent. Oduya is a decent defender, and Armstrong was a decent 3rd liner, but other than that it's a bunch of crap.

Expecting a top prospect in exchange for Callahan with no extension is a pipe dream, IMO. Maybe a decent roster player, okay prospect and a 1st rounder.

 

[Trxjw]

http://nypost.com/2014/02/15/americans-get-biggest-hockey-win-since-miracle/

Its easier to find a lefty than a righty.

I'm not sure I agree with Brooks about how comfortable McDonagh looked, but he did look solid on his off-side.

 

[Cassano]

Marian Hossa fetched Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito and a 1st round pick. Kovalchuk fetched Oduya, Nik Bergfors, Patrice Cormier and a 1st. Those were some of the biggest deadline deals post-lockout. There isn't a lot of significant value there and both of them were considerably better players than Callahan. 1st rounders are great, but only if they can be turned into a legitimate NHL talent. Oduya is a decent defender, and Armstrong was a decent 3rd liner, but other than that it's a bunch of crap.

Expecting a top prospect in exchange for Callahan with no extension is a pipe dream, IMO. Maybe a decent roster player, okay prospect and a 1st rounder.

Great post.

People are seemingly expecting a rental Callahan to return more than a rental Vanek returned for the rebuilding Sabres.

 

[RangerBlues]

Marian Hossa fetched Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito and a 1st round pick. Kovalchuk fetched Oduya, Nik Bergfors, Patrice Cormier and a 1st. Those were some of the biggest deadline deals post-lockout. There isn't a lot of significant value there and both of them were considerably better players than Callahan. 1st rounders are great, but only if they can be turned into a legitimate NHL talent. Oduya is a decent defender, and Armstrong was a decent 3rd liner, but other than that it's a bunch of crap.

Expecting a top prospect in exchange for Callahan with no extension is a pipe dream, IMO. Maybe a decent roster player, okay prospect and a 1st rounder.

Chicago is the first game back.

Phillip Danualt and 2014 1st for Callahan

 

[AlternateSideParking]

And what does that have to do with Duclair's chances? Absolutely nothing.

Just stating they're slim.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Just stating they're slim.

Previous players who were drafted in the 3rd not succeeding don't make Duclair's chances slim. The two have nothing to do with each other and you're using pseudo-logic.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Just stating they're slim.

Sure. But better than they were right after the draft, no?

 

[GAGLine]

Marian Hossa fetched Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito and a 1st round pick. Kovalchuk fetched Oduya, Nik Bergfors, Patrice Cormier and a 1st. Those were some of the biggest deadline deals post-lockout. There isn't a lot of significant value there and both of them were considerably better players than Callahan. 1st rounders are great, but only if they can be turned into a legitimate NHL talent. Oduya is a decent defender, and Armstrong was a decent 3rd liner, but other than that it's a bunch of crap.

Expecting a top prospect in exchange for Callahan with no extension is a pipe dream, IMO. Maybe a decent roster player, okay prospect and a 1st rounder.

I think you are looking at those deals too much in hindsight. Oduya was, and is still, a top 4 defender. Bergfors was having a very good rookie season and was a former 1st round pick. Cormier was a talented, former 2nd rounder who got into some trouble with suspensions.

Armstrong was 24 yo, former 1st rounder, and had 98 points in 181 games. Christensen was 23 yo, 66 points in 143 games. Esposito was a recent 1st round pick.

Sure, looking back we can say it turned out poorly for atlanta, but that's a lot of value. 2 young roster players, a 1st round prospect and a 1st round pick for Hossa. 2 roster players, a 2nd round prospect and a 1st round pick for Kovalchuk.

I don't think anyone is asking that much for Callahan, but he is certainly worth a 1st round prospect at least. Chicago just drafted Ryan Hartman 30th overall. Would it be crazy to think we could get Hartman and a 2nd or 3rd for Callahan? I don't think it is. That's far, far less than what Hossa and Kovalchuk got traded for.

 

[Ola]

I think you are looking at those deals too much in hindsight. Oduya was, and is still, a top 4 defender. Bergfors was having a very good rookie season and was a former 1st round pick. Cormier was a talented, former 2nd rounder who got into some trouble with suspensions.

Armstrong was 24 yo, former 1st rounder, and had 98 points in 181 games. Christensen was 23 yo, 66 points in 143 games. Esposito was a recent 1st round pick.

Sure, looking back we can say it turned out poorly for atlanta, but that's a lot of value. 2 young roster players, a 1st round prospect and a 1st round pick for Hossa. 2 roster players, a 2nd round prospect and a 1st round pick for Kovalchuk.

I don't think anyone is asking that much for Callahan, but he is certainly worth a 1st round prospect at least. Chicago just drafted Ryan Hartman 30th overall. Would it be crazy to think we could get Hartman and a 2nd or 3rd for Callahan? I don't think it is. That's far, far less than what Hossa and Kovalchuk got traded for.

I think it was real crap value at the time and still is. Oduya is protected in Chicago. Good D? I don't know. Bergfors? One of those guys who functioned in NJ but that you could tell on a miles distance that he just was not very good at all. I remember getting locked out of a thread by mods at the main board or trade board for stating this, but he just was not very good. Armstrong was and is a real stiff and Cormier was not a good prospect.

There is no way around this. RB posted some real good info on the Graves situation. Look at at bunch of trades made at that time and afterwards. We should have dealt Graves -- if we could have gotten a good player in return. But in so many deals, teams got picks and assets that amounted to exactly nothing. Nobody is complaining on that we didn't trade Graves for Mike Van Ryan or Denis Arkiphov or Josef Vasicek or Tyler Arnason or Dan LaCouture or Andreas Dackell or Jan Hlavac and so forth. You know. You don't want the "crap" from other teams. I much rather keep Callahan than getting crap, I don't understand why that is even up for debate. The last 5 picks of the drafts at the time Graves could have been moved was 97: Kevin Grimes, Ben Clymer, Brad DeFauw, Scott Barney, Jean-Marc Pelletier; 98: Mike Van Ryn, Scott Gomez, Ramzi Abid, Jonathan Cheechoo, Kyle Rossiter; 99: Martin Havlat, Ari Ahonen, Kristian Kudroc, Michal Sivek, Luke Sellars; 00: Brian Sutherby, Martin Samuelsson, Justin Williams, Niklas Kronwall, Jeff Taffe; 01: Jason Bacashihua, Jeff Woywitka, Adrian Foster, Adam Munro, Dave Steckel; 02: Martin Vagner, Mike Morris, Jonas Johansson, Hannu Toivonen, Jim Slater. That is 4 good players of 30 picks. 13% chance of getting something. A "avg" prospect and a really late first will in other words in 9 of 10 times turn into exactly nothing.

Can we get a real good player/prospect or even a real good pick for Cally, you know, sure make the trade. I don't got a great track of all kids out side the NHL, but it seems like we get to pick outside of every team's top 2-3 prospects -- and this is among the teams that has had late picks for a long time and de facto aren't ranked high in anyone's prospect ranking of temas -- and if we are lucky we could get a late 1st on top of it. That hardly seem to be a return that move us forward at all. The biggest gain would be not to tie up money long-term. We accomplish that by just letting him go.

 

[RangerBoy]

I think it was real crap value at the time and still is. Oduya is protected in Chicago. Good D? I don't know. Bergfors? One of those guys who functioned in NJ but that you could tell on a miles distance that he just was not very good at all. I remember getting locked out of a thread by mods at the main board or trade board for stating this, but he just was not very good. Armstrong was and is a real stiff and Cormier was not a good prospect.

There is no way around this. RB posted some real good info on the Graves situation. Look at at bunch of trades made at that time and afterwards. We should have dealt Graves -- if we could have gotten a good player in return. But in so many deals, teams got picks and assets that amounted to exactly nothing. Nobody is complaining on that we didn't trade Graves for Mike Van Ryan or Denis Arkiphov or Josef Vasicek or Tyler Arnason or Dan LaCouture or Andreas Dackell or Jan Hlavac and so forth. You know. You don't want the "crap" from other teams. I much rather keep Callahan than getting crap, I don't understand why that is even up for debate. The last 5 picks of the drafts at the time Graves could have been moved was 97: Kevin Grimes, Ben Clymer, Brad DeFauw, Scott Barney, Jean-Marc Pelletier; 98: Mike Van Ryn, Scott Gomez, Ramzi Abid, Jonathan Cheechoo, Kyle Rossiter; 99: Martin Havlat, Ari Ahonen, Kristian Kudroc, Michal Sivek, Luke Sellars; 00: Brian Sutherby, Martin Samuelsson, Justin Williams, Niklas Kronwall, Jeff Taffe; 01: Jason Bacashihua, Jeff Woywitka, Adrian Foster, Adam Munro, Dave Steckel; 02: Martin Vagner, Mike Morris, Jonas Johansson, Hannu Toivonen, Jim Slater. That is 4 good players of 30 picks. 13% chance of getting something. A "avg" prospect and a really late first will in other words in 9 of 10 times turn into exactly nothing.

Can we get a real good player/prospect or even a real good pick for Cally, you know, sure make the trade. I don't got a great track of all kids out side the NHL, but it seems like we get to pick outside of every team's top 2-3 prospects -- and this is among the teams that has had late picks for a long time and de facto aren't ranked high in anyone's prospect ranking of temas -- and if we are lucky we could get a late 1st on top of it. That hardly seem to be a return that move us forward at all. The biggest gain would be not to tie up money long-term. We accomplish that by just letting him go.

Many Rangers fans at that time didn't want to trade Graves in a deal for Shanahan. Graves is a great human being. The best. He wasn't the same player after hurting his back in the 1994 playoffs against New Jersey. Neil Smith also loved Graves. He selected him in 1986 for Detroit. Smith loved Graves so much that he could never bring himself to trade him. Graves had some good offensive years after hurting his back but he wasn't the same player. Its the same thing with Callahan. The heart says keep Callahan when the smart move is letting another team pay him. Even when Sather traded Graves in 2001 to San Jose,many people were furious with Sather. I love Adam Graves because the Rangers never had a player like him and haven't found another player like him. He was a great player. From 91-92-93-94,he was a power forward who played in every situation with Messier. It was more 114 goals in those 3 years and 15 playoff goals in 2 playoffs. 5 on 5. 4 on 4. PP. Net presence on the PP. PK. He would protect Messier and Leetch. He went after Claude Lemieux in the 1992 playoffs. He couldn't be knocked off the puck. The smart play was trading him to Hartford in a deal for Shanahan. Rutherford knew Graves since he was 16 years old.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Previous players who were drafted in the 3rd not succeeding don't make Duclair's chances slim. The two have nothing to do with each other and you're using pseudo-logic.

So a player being passed over by 79 peers doesnt make his chances slim?

Huh?

Forget talent and skill. It's pure statistics. The number of 3rd rounders who make it to the NHL and carve out a solid career are few and far between.

Even if you look at the last two drafts that many considered to be the strongest ever (1990 and 2003), out of about 30 forwards, only Clarke Macarthur and Slava Kozlov turned out to be consistent NHL point producers (and Macarthur is pushing it).

That's why fans need to stop obsessing over these later picks from the CHL. These kids drafted after the 2nd round rarely turn out to be anything special.

Sather has made plenty of mistakes in recent years not selling high on these kids. The NCAA ones I would hold on to. The CHL kids rarely turn out to be anything special, which is why they should never let any of them stand in the way of a trade.

If you have to trade Duclair to sweeten a deal for an established NHL player who is under contract, I have no problem with it.

Look at Grachev. He was 19th overall on THN's future watch, OHL rookie of the year and I think our 2nd overall in the prospect rankings.

He ended up getting traded for a 3rd rounder, who turned out to be Steve Fogarty, who is struggling in his second year in the NCAA.

1st and 2nd round picks should be afforded time to develop. Third rounders and later picks should be nothing but trade bait and deal sweetners. At least the forward prospects.

 

[jniklast]

So a player being passed over by 79 peers doesnt make his chances slim?

Huh?

Forget talent and skill. It's pure statistics. The number of 3rd rounders who make it to the NHL and carve out a solid career are few and far between.

Even if you look at the last two drafts that many considered to be the strongest ever (1990 and 2003), out of about 30 forwards, only Clarke Macarthur and Slava Kozlov turned out to be consistent NHL point producers (and Macarthur is pushing it).

That's why fans need to stop obsessing over these later picks from the CHL. These kids drafted after the 2nd round rarely turn out to be anything special.

Sather has made plenty of mistakes in recent years not selling high on these kids. The NCAA ones I would hold on to. The CHL kids rarely turn out to be anything special, which is why they should never let any of them stand in the way of a trade.

If you have to trade Duclair to sweeten a deal for an established NHL player who is under contract, I have no problem with it.

Look at Grachev. He was 19th overall on THN's future watch, OHL rookie of the year and I think our 2nd overall in the prospect rankings.

He ended up getting traded for a 3rd rounder, who turned out to be Steve Fogarty, who is struggling in his second year in the NCAA.

1st and 2nd round picks should be afforded time to develop. Third rounders and later picks should be nothing but trade bait and deal sweetners. At least the forward prospects.

You're using pre-draft average statistics used for evaluating draftpicks. Those are pretty meaningless when evaluating player performances a year later. What were Lundqvist chances to make the NHL in 2005? Those of a 7th round pick? Surely not, they were far better since he had shown great performances since his draft year. And likewise Duclair's chances now have nothing to do with where he was drafted, but only his performances.

Average statistics are pretty much useless for a single individual (event). They are only accurate over large sample sizes.

 

[Raspewtin]

So a player being passed over by 79 peers doesnt make his chances slim?

Huh?

Forget talent and skill. It's pure statistics. The number of 3rd rounders who make it to the NHL and carve out a solid career are few and far between.

Even if you look at the last two drafts that many considered to be the strongest ever (1990 and 2003), out of about 30 forwards, only Clarke Macarthur and Slava Kozlov turned out to be consistent NHL point producers (and Macarthur is pushing it).

That's why fans need to stop obsessing over these later picks from the CHL. These kids drafted after the 2nd round rarely turn out to be anything special.

Sather has made plenty of mistakes in recent years not selling high on these kids. The NCAA ones I would hold on to. The CHL kids rarely turn out to be anything special, which is why they should never let any of them stand in the way of a trade.

If you have to trade Duclair to sweeten a deal for an established NHL player who is under contract, I have no problem with it.

Look at Grachev. He was 19th overall on THN's future watch, OHL rookie of the year and I think our 2nd overall in the prospect rankings.

He ended up getting traded for a 3rd rounder, who turned out to be Steve Fogarty, who is struggling in his second year in the NCAA.

1st and 2nd round picks should be afforded time to develop. Third rounders and later picks should be nothing but trade bait and deal sweetners. At least the forward prospects.

lol nice bias there.

I forgot that CHL players that aren't drafted from the 1st/2nd round never make the NHL.

No **** the chances are slim. We just happen to believe that Anthony Duclair, and a handful of us watch him, believe he will be an NHL player and a good one.

Obviously you don't watch him one bit so there's no point in debating this with you.

 

[Matt4776]

[/B]33]So a player being passed over by 79 peers doesnt make his chances slim?

Huh?

Forget talent and skill. It's pure statistics. The number of 3rd rounders who make it to the NHL and carve out a solid career are few and far between.

Even if you look at the last two drafts that many considered to be the strongest ever (1990 and 2003), out of about 30 forwards, only Clarke Macarthur and Slava Kozlov turned out to be consistent NHL point producers (and Macarthur is pushing it).

That's why fans need to stop obsessing over these later picks from the CHL. These kids drafted after the 2nd round rarely turn out to be anything special.

Sather has made plenty of mistakes in recent years not selling high on these kids. The NCAA ones I would hold on to. The CHL kids rarely turn out to be anything special, which is why they should never let any of them stand in the way of a trade.

If you have to trade Duclair to sweeten a deal for an established NHL player who is under contract, I have no problem with it.

Look at Grachev. He was 19th overall on THN's future watch, OHL rookie of the year and I think our 2nd overall in the prospect rankings.

He ended up getting traded for a 3rd rounder, who turned out to be Steve Fogarty, who is struggling in his second year in the NCAA.

1st and 2nd round picks should be afforded time to develop. Third rounders and later picks should be nothing but trade bait and deal sweetners. At least the forward prospects.

Biochem/Statistics/Anthropology triple major at UMich here.

Your post makes zero statistical sense as you're forgetting one of the cardinal most basic rules of statistics.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Really, the fact that there's a small chance of making it out of the 3rd round, doesn't mean all that much in each individual case.

 

[Dr. Ogrodnick]

I think it was real crap value at the time and still is. Oduya is protected in Chicago. Good D? I don't know. Bergfors? One of those guys who functioned in NJ but that you could tell on a miles distance that he just was not very good at all. I remember getting locked out of a thread by mods at the main board or trade board for stating this, but he just was not very good. Armstrong was and is a real stiff and Cormier was not a good prospect.

There is no way around this. RB posted some real good info on the Graves situation. Look at at bunch of trades made at that time and afterwards. We should have dealt Graves -- if we could have gotten a good player in return. But in so many deals, teams got picks and assets that amounted to exactly nothing. Nobody is complaining on that we didn't trade Graves for Mike Van Ryan or Denis Arkiphov or Josef Vasicek or Tyler Arnason or Dan LaCouture or Andreas Dackell or Jan Hlavac and so forth. You know. You don't want the "crap" from other teams. I much rather keep Callahan than getting crap, I don't understand why that is even up for debate. The last 5 picks of the drafts at the time Graves could have been moved was 97: Kevin Grimes, Ben Clymer, Brad DeFauw, Scott Barney, Jean-Marc Pelletier; 98: Mike Van Ryn, Scott Gomez, Ramzi Abid, Jonathan Cheechoo, Kyle Rossiter; 99: Martin Havlat, Ari Ahonen, Kristian Kudroc, Michal Sivek, Luke Sellars; 00: Brian Sutherby, Martin Samuelsson, Justin Williams, Niklas Kronwall, Jeff Taffe; 01: Jason Bacashihua, Jeff Woywitka, Adrian Foster, Adam Munro, Dave Steckel; 02: Martin Vagner, Mike Morris, Jonas Johansson, Hannu Toivonen, Jim Slater. That is 4 good players of 30 picks. 13% chance of getting something. A "avg" prospect and a really late first will in other words in 9 of 10 times turn into exactly nothing.

Can we get a real good player/prospect or even a real good pick for Cally, you know, sure make the trade. I don't got a great track of all kids out side the NHL, but it seems like we get to pick outside of every team's top 2-3 prospects -- and this is among the teams that has had late picks for a long time and de facto aren't ranked high in anyone's prospect ranking of temas -- and if we are lucky we could get a late 1st on top of it. That hardly seem to be a return that move us forward at all. The biggest gain would be not to tie up money long-term. We accomplish that by just letting him go.

Fair enough, but if the Rangers don't trade Callahan and he walks in the offseason without delivering a cup this playoffs, then the Rangers are left with 0% chance of something. I'd take a 13% chance of getting something over a 0% chance.

 

[Cassano]

From 91-92-93-94,he was a power forward who played in every situation with Messier. It was more 114 goals in those 3 years and 15 playoff goals in 2 playoffs. 5 on 5. 4 on 4. PP. Net presence on the PP. PK. He would protect Messier and Leetch. He went after Claude Lemieux in the 1992 playoffs. He couldn't be knocked off the puck. The smart play was trading him to Hartford in a deal for Shanahan. Rutherford knew Graves since he was 16 years old.

You pretty much described what people were saying about Ryan Callahan circa 2010-2013 here.

 

[LORDE]

If Sather keeps Cally for this "snowballs chance in hell run" and then he walks for nothing in June, the franchise will get exactly what it deserves going forward.

More mediocrity and plenty of it.