Rumor: Trade Rumor/Speculation Thread XIX: The Olympic Freeze

[RangerBoy]

With the progress Duclair and Buchnevich have made, it's not outlandish to suggest that they might do better than many 1st and 2nd round picks from the 2013 draft.

Duclair plays in the Q. The Rangers have had previous players out of the Q such as Christian Dube who was the best CHL player in 1995-96 and never made it to the NHL. He beat out Inginla for that award. Every player is different. The Rangers were thrilled to grab Dube in the 2nd round. We can't believe this player was available. We had him rated as a 1st rounder. Smith refused to include him a deal for Shanahan.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=10819

Hartford GM Jim Rutherford approached Smith and offered Shanahan in exchange for Alexei Kovalev, Dan Cloutier, Christian Dube and Jeff Brown. The Rangers rejected the offer; they were not, Smith insisted at the time, going to surrender such valuable young talent for Shanahan, no matter his track record. Indeed, the GM fairly ridiculed Rutherford’s request.

In retrospect, given that we now know that neither center Dube nor defenseman Brown will play for the Rangers, the rejection was nothing less than a colossal mistake. Adding Shanahan to a team that was able to advance to the Eastern Conference Finals might well have given the Rangers their second Cup in four years. It would have given the team a forward in his prime around whom to build.

http://nypost.com/1999/01/24/shanahan-still-haunts-rangers-failure-to-deal-led-to-downfall/

"For a club like ours, the most important decision becomes does he advance our cause on the ice just by having him there?" said Smith, who pointed to young centers like Niklas Sundstrom, Christian Dube and Chris Ferraro, as well as the veteran Sergei Nemchinov, as players that Gretzky would likely take ice time away from.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/11/sports/hockey-gretzky-and-rangers-in-no-rush.html

Shanahan was 27 in 1996. Smith tried to acquire him from Keenan in St.Louis for Kovalev and Beukeboom or Matteau. Keenan trades him to Hartford for Pronger. Smith has a chance to acquire him again. One of the deals included Adam Graves because Rutherford knew Graves from Windsor. Smith turned it down. Graves was a diminished player because of his back.

Buchnevich slid because of the KHL factor. There is usually a soap opera involved getting players out of the KHL. The KHL team pressures the player to stay. The NHL team wants him to sign. That's why teams don't want that headache. Its hard enough to run a team without dealing with another league.

 

[Ola]

RB- Awsome info.

 

[Kocur Dill]

Thanks RB

The only thing I'll say about Shanny. At that point in his career would he have been the same for us as he was for Detroit? Detroit had that leadership core for him to respect as the new guy. Shanny had a bit of an ego on his shoulders in Hartford that came off as a hotshot mentality. I'm not so sure he would have curtailed it in NY and matured into the player he became in Detroit who went on the become a leader after the Russians started leaving and retiring.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Thanks RB

The only thing I'll say about Shanny. At that point in his career would he have been the same for us as he was for Detroit? Detroit had that leadership core for him to respect as the new guy. Shanny had a bit of an ego on his shoulders in Hartford that came off as a hotshot mentality. I'm not so sure he would have curtailed it in NY and matured into the player he became in Detroit who went on the become a leader after the Russians started leaving and retiring.

And no one to make a flying tackle on Roy so that McCarty could beat the daylights out of Lemiuex.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Sather needs to learn how to sell high.

Grachev, Dawes, Prucha, Korpikoski, Montoya...he got nothing in return for them.

The Nash trade was a good trade. The Gaborik one was even better. He sold low on on Dubinsky and Gaborik, but still got a decent haul.

Time to make some moves, and not for the sake of making them. Sather needs to take a page out of Chiarelli and Bowman's book -- sell high.

Callahan's worth will be through the roof after this Olympiad. It's not exaggeration that 29 NHL GMs are salivating at the chance to sign him next season -- some are even willing to break the bank for him at the deadline.

Brendan Morrow had 11 points in 23 games, had numerous injuries and was 34 years old when he was traded last year. Shero ponied up Brendan Morrow for him.

Callahan is younger and a better overall player than Morrow was at this point last year. Sather could probably get a top-3 prospect and a 1st rounder.

 

[pld459666]

Thanks RB

The only thing I'll say about Shanny. At that point in his career would he have been the same for us as he was for Detroit? Detroit had that leadership core for him to respect as the new guy. Shanny had a bit of an ego on his shoulders in Hartford that came off as a hotshot mentality. I'm not so sure he would have curtailed it in NY and matured into the player he became in Detroit who went on the become a leader after the Russians started leaving and retiring.

Shanahan is and was the type of player you make that move on everyday.

Rangers had solid leadership in place still in 96. What they also had was a fading Graves and no replacement. Shanny was Graves replacement.

 

[Fitzy]

It takes guts to sell high- you never know if the player will improve further.

Selling Stepan after last season, Del Zotto after his 41 pointer, Kreider after this season could be examples of that.

But what if Kreider evolves rather than devolves? It's risky.

 

[haohmaru]

Kinda surprised at how Dube's career turned out. I thought he'd be a decent 2nd line RW in the NHL.

 

[RangerBoy]

Awesome? It was a disaster.

Maybe Duclair becomes a really good NHL player. The Rangers QMJHL scout is Daniel Dore. He was in Boston scouting the Q for Mike O'Connell and Gorton when Boston took Patrice Bergeron and Brad Marchand out of the Q. The Bruins didn't select many players out of the Quebec league but they hit on those two.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Let's just say they trade Duclair in two weeks. Say they trade him in a package for a guy like say Giordano or Cammaleri (just an example)

What re the chances Duclair becomes anything more than an NHL 3rd liner with occasional offense?

Very, very slim. Especially when you consider where he was drafted, the team who drafted him, and the league he was drafted out of.

The problem is that the prospect pool is pretty thin. They really dont have much that would be considered an untouchable prospect the way Kreider was viewed.

Miller? Duclair? McIlrath? Skjei? Nieves?

Not bad. But not great. Not even close.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Let's just say they trade Duclair in two weeks. Say they trade him in a package for a guy like say Giordano or Cammaleri (just an example)

What re the chances Duclair becomes anything more than an NHL 3rd liner with occasional offense?

Very, very slim. Especially when you consider where he was drafted, the team who drafted him, and the league he was drafted out of.

The problem is that the prospect pool is pretty thin. They really dont have much that would be considered an untouchable prospect the way Kreider was viewed.

Miller? Duclair? McIlrath? Skjei? Nieves?

Not bad. But not great. Not even close.

RB mentioned that the guys who took him went 2/2 with the guys they took from the Q that are now on Boston.

Bergeron was a mid 2nd pick. Marchand a mid 3rd.

Duclair was a mid 3rd. Trxjw mentioned that Duclair has the smarts where other prospects we're developing are failing in their development because they lack anything between the ears.

It's promising to hear that our scouts have had past success with comparable picks of players from the same league.

 

[Mikos87]

I mean if you want to look at it like that (assuming we don't sign a defenseman and don't re-sign Stralman either):

Staal---McDonagh
Moore---Klein
Allen/Falk --- McIlrath
Falk/Allen



Yikes. That's a serious downgrade from what we have now

That's basically Minnesota's defense right now. Staal and McD would play 30 min a night. Defense would wear off by game 65 of the regular season.

Such a shame this organization doesn't sign guys a year before they hit UFA like all the contenders do.

A** backwards thinking.

 

[Mikos87]

Duclair should be untouchable for now. Look at the prospects stats this season. None have come close to producing as much as him. None.

I'd move Kristo before anyone else. Doesn't play a 200 feet game, and is slow to process the game at the AHL level.

Methinks Kristo drank himself stupid during his time at college. He is not a smart player, and the more I watch him, the more I realize his head for the game will never catch up to his stick skills and skating ability.

Makes the same gaffs repeatedly... idiot on ice.

Stark difference between Kristo and the likes of Fast, Miller, and Lindberg... the latter 3 who are able to process the game much more cohesively than Kristo.

 

[Trxjw]

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Duclair has 1st round pedigree. Buchnevich clearly has the talent as well. I don't think either is untouchable, but I doubt teams are banging down the Rangers door offering up elite talent for them either.

I understand the temptation to sell high, but you're making a big assumption that the player has peaked. We could 'sell high' on Zuccarello but if he ends up as a 65 point winger, then we certainly look like fools.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

RB mentioned that the guys who took him went 2/2 with the guys they took from the Q that are now on Boston.

Bergeron was a mid 2nd pick. Marchand a mid 3rd.

Duclair was a mid 3rd. Trxjw mentioned that Duclair has the smarts where other prospects we're developing are failing in their development because they lack anything between the ears.

It's promising to hear that our scouts have had past success with comparable picks of players from the same league.

Skjei and Nieves "lack anything between the ears"? Fast? Lindberg? Miller?

Very false to suggest that.

In fact, i would go out on a limb and suggest that Brady Skjei is one of the more intelligent players the Rangers have drafted in decades. He may never develop the offense, but his positional play, fundamentals, and physical abilities are very high.

 

[Mikos87]

Skjei and Nieves "lack anything between the ears"? Fast? Lindberg? Miller?

Very false to suggest that.

Nieves.. yes. He doesn't shoot the puck in prime areas.

Fast, Lindberg, Miller and Skjei are all smart players. I don't think Skjei has any offensive upside, but he will turn into one of those mistake free defenseman that can handle a bottom pair role just fine.

Fast and Lindberg are very smart players, Miller is smart plus a better athlete in terms of his physical gifts. I don't foresee Nieves as the type of player that will contribute towards a winning cause. Best hope for him is to have 2 great years in Michigan so he can have some trade value down the line.

Skjei should spend another year at college and then turn pro. Miller, Lindberg and Fast will all be NHLers by this time next season.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Nieves.. yes. He doesn't shoot the puck in prime areas.

Fast, Lindberg, Miller and Skjei are all smart players. I don't think Skjei has any offensive upside, but he will turn into one of those mistake free defenseman that can handle a bottom pair role just fine.

Fast and Lindberg are very smart players, Miller is smart plus a better athlete in terms of his physical gifts. I don't foresee Nieves as the type of player that will contribute towards a winning cause. Best hope for him is to have 2 great years in Michigan so he can have some trade value down the line.

Skjei should spend another year at college and then turn pro. Miller, Lindberg and Fast will all be NHLers by this time next season.

Eh, I would argue that decisionmaking is the one thing that's holding Miller back right now. Doesn't necessarily make him an unintelligent player, but he's not in the same conversation with Fast, Lindberg, Hrivik and Allen in HFD when it comes to hockey IQ.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Skjei and Nieves "lack anything between the ears"? Fast? Lindberg? Miller?

Very false to suggest that.

In fact, i would go out on a limb and suggest that Brady Skjei is one of the more intelligent players the Rangers have drafted in decades. He may never develop the offense, but his positional play, fundamentals, and physical abilities are very high.

I didn't name anyone. Trxjw used Michael St. Croix and Evgeni Grachev as his comparables. 2 other non-first round picks.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Eh, I would argue that decisionmaking is the one thing that's holding Miller back right now. Doesn't necessarily make him an unintelligent player, but he's not in the same conversation with Fast, Lindberg, Hrivik and Allen in HFD when it comes to hockey IQ.

Part of what makes his decision making inconsistent is because he doesn't have much first hand experience. Part of the learning process is experience - he needs some.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

Nieves.. yes. He doesn't shoot the puck in prime areas.

Fast, Lindberg, Miller and Skjei are all smart players. I don't think Skjei has any offensive upside, but he will turn into one of those mistake free defenseman that can handle a bottom pair role just fine.

Fast and Lindberg are very smart players, Miller is smart plus a better athlete in terms of his physical gifts. I don't foresee Nieves as the type of player that will contribute towards a winning cause. Best hope for him is to have 2 great years in Michigan so he can have some trade value down the line.

Skjei should spend another year at college and then turn pro. Miller, Lindberg and Fast will all be NHLers by this time next season.

Nieves has never really been shoot-centric. He is a player that has always been the one who looks to set his linemates up. Expecting him to be a big time goal scorer just isnt how he plays. He came on big in the second half last year and was arguably Michigan's top forward. There could be plenty of variables why he is struggling this season. Who knows. But he's a sophomore, he has plenty of time to get back on track and be a very good NCAA player. Weather or not he develops into an NHL players, who knows.

Brady Skjei, however, IMO is going to be an outstanding player at the pro level. He isn't flashy but hes just very smart on the ice.

Skjei not having big offensive upside means he is only ever going to be a bottom pair player? I see a player that once he grows into his frame, grows more and more confident, he will start to develop the offense. I see a future top four defenseman.

Skjei is looked at to play a shutdown role because he is smart and cool enough on the ice to play that role. He can shoot, has a quick release, can skate at a high level, and has a long reach. Makes smart plays with the puck in the defensive zone to contribute to a transition game. He has the tools to develop into a two way defenseman.

Of all our prospects Skjei and Miller are the two i am very high on. These two have the skill to go with the off ice work, strength and size.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Duclair would have been higher, right? Well, the same was said for Esposito, Macfarlane and Kabanov.

There's a reason why guy's drop. NHL front offices have moles everywhere. They know what a draftees habits are because the scouts talk to the stick boys, they talk to the trainers, they talk to former teammates at other levels.

People always hear the same BS when guys are drafted well below where they should have been...."I'm going to use this as motivation to be the best player of them all....blah blah blah"

Idiots said that about Seth Jones....how the other three teams are going to regret passing on him. Hmmmmm. Nope. Not now they arent.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Let's just say they trade Duclair in two weeks. Say they trade him in a package for a guy like say Giordano or Cammaleri (just an example)

What re the chances Duclair becomes anything more than an NHL 3rd liner with occasional offense?

Very, very slim. Especially when you consider where he was drafted, the team who drafted him, and the league he was drafted out of.

The problem is that the prospect pool is pretty thin. They really dont have much that would be considered an untouchable prospect the way Kreider was viewed.

Miller? Duclair? McIlrath? Skjei? Nieves?

Not bad. But not great. Not even close.

If the Rangers trade DuClair he will undoubtedly develop into a annual all-star....

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Duclair would have been higher, right? Well, the same was said for Esposito, Macfarlane and Kabanov.

There's a reason why guy's drop. NHL front offices have moles everywhere. They know what a draftees habits are because the scouts talk to the stick boys, they talk to the trainers, they talk to former teammates at other levels.

People always hear the same BS when guys are drafted well below where they should have been...."I'm going to use this as motivation to be the best player of them all....blah blah blah"

Idiots said that about Seth Jones....how the other three teams are going to regret passing on him. Hmmmmm. Nope. Not now they arent.

...what?

 

[AlternateSideParking]

I'm quite surprised that the Rangers have never done well with their French-Canadian draftees since the 1980s.

Gilbert is a tremendous ambassador for the franchise. French Canadian kids are rare breeds. They're usually very private, very reserved, and very, very French. If you look at the Rangers teams since Ratelle and Gilbert, very few French Canadians.

Brassard and Poulito having chemistry is no surprise.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

I didn't name anyone. Trxjw used Michael St. Croix and Evgeni Grachev as his comparables. 2 other non-first round picks.

Agree you naturally have to be cautious not to fall to in love with stats at the CHL level. Grachev had Duchene and Hodgson to play with. He was also bigger and stronger than most of his competition. So when he reached the pro ranks he couldn't just barrel through everyone and the Whale Pack wanted him to start developing his defensive game.

St. Croix i was never really high on. Smallish, all offense.

Have to look at the whole package and traits.