Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 77

[ReHabs]

Take it for what it’s worth.

Seems like a fair trade. Habs can sign Anderson's replacement 40pt winger on the UFA market.

Do they want to dump Varlamov on us too? I'll take him

 

[Adam Michaels]

Take it for what it’s worth.

Anderson to Isles for their 13th.

Petry to Stars for their 18th.

Leave the first night of the draft with the 1st overall + 13th +18th + 26th. And then on day 2, you have the first pick of the day at #33.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.



But in all honesty, I'm not setting myself up with expectations that Habs will make a splash. That way, if they don't, I'll be good.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Anderson to Isles for their 13th.

Petry to Stars for their 18th.

Leave the first night of the draft with the 1st overall + 13th +18th + 26th. And then on day 2, you have the first pick of the day at #33.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

...trade 13th + 26th (and whatever) to Philly (cuz Fletcher's a moron) and get the 5th Overall...


...and then I woke up...

 

[Twisted Sinister]

Slow down there.

I'm all for adding top-end talent (by any means necessary). I'm not for a perpetual, never ending rebuild where we huddle over magic beans and rub our hands hoping for the good luck candy mountain promised land.

So far I'm sure you'd agree with me.

Now, I disagree that you can draft your way to top-end talent and I also disagree that you can get top-end talent through the draft as if it's a sure thing. 1) Vegas showed that you don't need to draft a single amateur player and still field a formidable team with terrific players and depth and 2) The Habs drafted in the top10 three times in the Bergevin era and have nothing to show for it... other than 40 point oft-injured winger Josh Anderson.

For the Vegas example, they're so aggressive that they get into cap issues but somehow they managed to have better forwards and defenders than the Habs who never "mortgaged the future". On the other hand Edmonton drafted top5 how many years in a row and they don't look like they're close. Colorado went through TWO rebuilds back to back. Buffalo, Ottawa, and Arizona -- gimme a break. Florida got swept and might lose Hubes soon. This is a broken paradigm.

You want to know what else has actually failed? Holding onto late stage 1st round picks and refusing to trade quantity for quality whenever the opportunity was there.

A two year rebuild means after the 2023 draft the Habs start acquiring talent with an eye of making a deep playoff run. I'm 100% behind this. Let's do it. Anything longer exposes the roster to tail risks relating to the ravages of time: contract issues, cap issues, injury issues, etc. Also, imagine you draft a NCAA player in 2024, typically that means by 2027 at the earliest we can expect to see them in the NHL... and who knows how many years until they become "top-end talent", two, three? 2030 you want to compete with a 29 year old, statistically-past-his prime Nick Suzuki? You really want to wait nearly a decade for this Top-End Talent, yeah?

We have Suzuki, we have Caufield, we have the 1OA -- we can acquire the other core pieces without waiting for the magic beans to sprout. I'm tired of mediocrity and the most mediocre thing the Habs can do is to continue the asinine and thoughtless "won't mortgage the future" mantra. It's meaningless at best.

The Habs didn't win anything in these past many many years because they were not aggressive or ambitious. And they hid behind good goaltending if they ever got too close. The fact is good teams constantly build and re-build, and we have three very valuable pieces in hand we don't need to wait to get three more years to add talent, we can do it today.

I did not ask for a perpetual rebuild. I said a 2-3 year rebuild.

You can disagree all you want, but results speak for themselves. Pittburgh. Chicago. LA. Washington, Colorado, Tampa, etc etc.

I like Suzuki and Caulfield, but to think they measure up to the guys on those winning teams I listed above is delusional. Wright will help, but neither does he. We need more. We need a Bedard. We need a number one defenseman. We need a goalie if price does not come back. We cannot win without these things.

You say the Habs didn't win anything because they weren't aggressive or ambitious. I submit that signing free agents right now, while we don't have the horses to compete, is aggressively idiotic. You make bold moves at the right time. When you're already on the right track. Not as a panic move to start "maketheplayoffsandwhoknowslol."

In reality, the Habs didn't win anything these past many many years because of a lack of top-end talent. You get top end-talent through the draft. You don't get it by trying to magically trade untalented players for talented ones. The Habs were mediocre, with shitty, dinosaur management, and middle of the road players. They finished middle-of-the-pack. They sucked at drafting, and they sucked at player development. That's why they didn't win anything.

Look at that list of cup winners I posted. Now look at it again. Sear it into your brain. That's how you win. Not the old formula.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

Good Lord these takes.

I'll acknowledge that rebuilding doesn't always work when you have horrible management. However, it is also THE ONLY THING THAT WORKS if you look at cap era NHL.

Chicago: Kane and Toews
Tampa: Stamkos and Hedman
Pittsbugh: Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury
Washington: Ovechkin and Backstrom
Colorado: Mackinnon and Makar
Kings: Kopitar, Doughty

Throw this year's Florida and Carolina teams in there for good measure. They'll only be getting better. And Toronto, for all the hilarity of them being unable to leave the first round, have a good competitive hockey team.

TOP-END TALENT. Top-end talent is how you create a long-term competitive team.

Like I try to be understanding of different viewpoints here... But tanking one year and then trying to fill the cupboard with hasbeens (Letang), players that seem to be having trouble reaching their ceiling (Lafreniere), and God knows what else in order to be mediocre rather than acquiring top-end talent for 2-3 years is a strategy so utterly short-sighted that it's as if people live in a a vacuum and don't understand that the last 30 years exist. We've been doing this. It fails.

Shane Wright does not get you to the promised land. You need Bedard (Or Fantilli, or Michkov). You need cost-controlled top-end talent that you can then surround with veterans in order to win.

You need 2-3 year rebuilds minimum to be successful in this league. Look at the teams above. Stop looking for the quick, easy, and ridiculous solution. Pay attention to history and stop being satisfied with garbage.

We've been doing this. Mediocrity for 30 years. Maybe some of you are ok with that, but I'm sure as hell not. I want competence and I want long-term planning and long-term success.

Another point worth mentionning is its absolutely futile to even attempt anything before most of the bad contracts run out; Dadonov, Drouin and Byron this year, Hoffman, Armia and Savard beyond.

 

[Adam Michaels]

...trade 13th + 26th (and whatever) to Philly (cuz Fletcher's a moron) and get the 5th Overall...


...and then I woke up...

In my dream, Fletcher is such a moron that Habs got the 5th overall from them for Armia.

So Habs leave with picks 1, 5, 13, 18 & 26.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

You have to bet he learned his lesson playing with great players and now is imitating them as role models? Posters on HF are really adverse to risk, but you can't stay confortable if you want things to change. Listen, I want a real rebuild too, I proposed we trade Caufield and Suzuki to ensure it, but no one wants to risk it. From the way things are looking to be, you won't get that, I think the Habs will compete and draft mid range again; hence why not give them something to work with, if that's the direction you're taking? You're fooling yourself if you think a team with so many vets and rising prospects will finish last again, given the vets were exhausted from covid and the last SC run. Given you now have guys like Barron and Guhle and more of them that we don't know about and can't predict their rise, they will come out of nowhere and surprise us playing solid minutes.

A player in a contract year who's been only ok and suddenly turns it up to get paid is one of the most concerning possible kinds of players to sign.

I think we trade Petry and Anderson and don't sign anyone other than maybe some tough guys. The tank will be fine.

Have you seen the East? How do you wanna compete with that?

 

[BaseballCoach]

Good Lord these takes.

I'll acknowledge that rebuilding doesn't always work when you have horrible management. However, it is also THE ONLY THING THAT WORKS if you look at cap era NHL.

Chicago: Kane and Toews
Tampa: Stamkos and Hedman
Pittsbugh: Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury
Washington: Ovechkin and Backstrom
Colorado: Mackinnon and Makar
Kings: Kopitar, Doughty

Throw this year's Florida and Carolina teams in there for good measure. They'll only be getting better. And Toronto, for all the hilarity of them being unable to leave the first round, have a good competitive hockey team.

TOP-END TALENT. Top-end talent is how you create a long-term competitive team.

Like I try to be understanding of different viewpoints here... But tanking one year and then trying to fill the cupboard with hasbeens (Letang), players that seem to be having trouble reaching their ceiling (Lafreniere), and God knows what else in order to be mediocre rather than acquiring top-end talent for 2-3 years is a strategy so utterly short-sighted that it's as if people live in a a vacuum and don't understand that the last 30 years exist. We've been doing this. It fails.

Shane Wright does not get you to the promised land. You need Bedard (Or Fantilli, or Michkov). You need cost-controlled top-end talent that you can then surround with veterans in order to win.

You need 2-3 year rebuilds minimum to be successful in this league. Look at the teams above. Stop looking for the quick, easy, and ridiculous solution. Pay attention to history and stop being satisfied with garbage.

We've been doing this. Mediocrity for 30 years. Maybe some of you are ok with that, but I'm sure as hell not. I want competence and I want long-term planning and long-term success.

Cost controlled top-end talent? Tampa? Tampa got nowhere until Stamkos and Hedman were already making big bucks. Their other good players were acquired by trade or late picks.

Washington???? How many years did they accomplish ZILCH with Ovechkin and Backstrom on their roster? They got to their first semi-fianl in Ovy's 13th year, AT AGE 32. How would things been any different if they acquired him at age 24 instead of 19?

Kopitar was not a top-5 pick and LA got to their first final in his 7th year, way past his ELC.

By the way, the chances of Habs getting Bedard are about 10%. Any strategy banking on that is ill-advised.

I'm not saying to go all in right now. But the romantiocizing of "rebuilds" goes way too far sometimes. It's ok to consider trades and UFAs in an overall plan. Let's strip the deadwood first, then see what the opportunities are. But ther is jnothing wrong with acquiring a great talent in his early to mid-twenties, even 27, at the right price of course.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

In my dream, Fletcher is such a moron that Habs got the 5th overall from them for Armia.

So Habs leave with picks 1, 5, 13, 18 & 26.

...I like your dream better...let's go with that one!!...

 

[Twisted Sinister]

Cost controlled top-end talent? Tampa? Tampa got nowhere until Stamkos and Hedman were already making big bucks. Their other good players wers acquired by trade or late picks.

Washington???? How many years did they accomplish ZILCH with Ovechkin and Backstrom on their roster? They got to their first semi-fianl in Ovy's 13th year, AT AGE 32. How would things been any different if they acquired him at age 24 instead of 19?

Kopitar was not a top-5 pick and LA got to their first final in his 7th year, way past his ELC.

By the way, the chances of Habs getting Bedard are about 10%. Any strategy banking on that is ill-advised.

I'm not saying to go all in right now. But the romantiocizing of "rebuilds" goes way too far sometimes. It's ok to consider trades and UFAs in an overall plan. Let's strip the deadwood first, then see what the opportunities are. But ther is jnothing wrong with acquiring a great talent in his early to mid-twenties, even 27, at the right price of course.

I'd be ok with Michkov or Fantilli too.

You're trying to nitpick to poke holes, but Ovechkin, Stamkos, Backstrom, and especially Hedman are needed to win those cups. Doesn't mean you're guaranteed one right away. There are 32 teams in the league, but you still need that top-end talent. You also need competent management to add to that talent and develop other assets when the time is right.

You don't have that talent though, you don win. It's not romanticizing rebuilds to say that they work, because the results are clear. Almost all teams that win have rebuilt.

In my dream, Fletcher is such a moron that Habs got the 5th overall from them for Armia.

So Habs leave with picks 1, 5, 13, 18 & 26.

Doubt that'll happen, but I'd say Anderson for 5 isn't out of the realm of possibility

 

[ReHabs]

You can disagree all you want, but results speak for themselves. Pittburgh. Chicago. LA. Washington, Colorado, Tampa, etc etc.

Buffalo
Edmonton
Ottawa
Arizona
Florida
New Jersey
... Toronto


I don't want to sign every UFA now but it's asinine to not build the best possible team at all times. Banking on draft picks to acquire generational talent doesn't work, see my list above and sear it into your brain.

 

[Vachon23]

 

[BaseballCoach]

the results are clear. Almost all teams that win have rebuilt.

Sleight of hand. Almost all teams that have NOT won have also rebuilt. Especially if you give yourself a 13 year window to look at with hindsight.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

Sleight of hand. Almost all teams that have NOT won have also rebuilt. Especially if you give yourself a 13 year window to look at with hindsight.

Good management and development of other assets is also key. But to start, you need top-end talent.

Buffalo
Edmonton
Ottawa
Arizona
Florida
New Jersey
... Toronto


I don't want to sign every UFA now but it's asinine to not build the best possible team at all times. Banking on draft picks to acquire generational talent doesn't work, see my list above and sear it into your brain.

I'd rather currently be in Toronto, Edmonton, Jersey, or Florida's position than ours. That said, some of those franchises never surrounded their talent correctly. They rebuilt, but you also have to be competent. If management sucks and you don't develop players properly fill the holes for players you didn't draft, then yes.... perpetual suck is assured.

Toronto and Edmonton are top-heavy (at forward) teams that lack defense and goaltending.

Zona and Buffalo are meme franchises at this point. Their level of incompetence is legendary.

Ottawa and Jersey are on their way up. We'll see what they do in the coming years.

Not sure how Florida's on this list. They didn't win the cup, but I'd say their rebuild is successful

 

[26Mats]

Anderson to Isles for their 13th.

Petry to Stars for their 18th.

Leave the first night of the draft with the 1st overall + 13th +18th + 26th. And then on day 2, you have the first pick of the day at #33.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.



But in all honesty, I'm not setting myself up with expectations that Habs will make a splash. That way, if they don't, I'll be good.

Those are bigger returns than I originally thought we'd get for Anderson and Petry. But Hughes is in no rush to trade them, and I think that is the type of return he's looking to get... After the returns he got at the TDL in particular.

 

[webersshot]

im still waiting for someone to show that lebrun said we could get phillys pick for petry lol

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

im still waiting for someone to show that lebrun said we could get phillys pick for petry lol

...I'd walk to Montreal from Nova Scotia to kiss Hughes and Gorton if that happened...

 

[morhilane]

When I saw Lortie's tweet I thought the Isle Insider on twitter had wrote new things about Andy, but no. I think people are just recycling weeks old info/rumors right now. Same thing with Petry.

 

[webersshot]

same lol

 

[Adam Michaels]

Those are bigger returns than I originally thought we'd get for Anderson and Petry. But Hughes is in no rush to trade them, and I think that is the type of return he's looking to get... After the returns he got at the TDL in particular.

Yup. That's the good thing about Petry and Anderson. They have term. So Habs don't need to rush in trading them.

 

[ReHabs]

Good management and development of other assets is also key. But to start, you need top-end talent.

I'd rather currently be in Toronto, Edmonton, Jersey, or Florida's position than ours. That said, some of those franchises never surrounded their talent correctly. They rebuilt, but you also have to be competent. If management sucks and you don't develop players properly fill the holes for players you didn't draft, then yes.... perpetual suck is assured.

Toronto and Edmonton are top-heavy (at forward) teams that lack defense and goaltending.

Zona and Buffalo are meme franchises at this point. Their level of incompetence is legendary.

Ottawa and Jersey are on their way up. We'll see what they do in the coming years.

Not sure how Florida's on this list. They didn't win the cup, but I'd say their rebuild is successful

Considering they haven't developed a single PPG player in how many years, what's to say the Habs will tank and tank and tank and rebuild correctly where Toronto, Edmonton, Arizona, Buffalo, Ottawa, Jersey, Florida failed so far?

 

[MarkovsKnee]

NYI's have the cap space to do this too. They have $12m in cap space with 18 players signed, albeit only 3D. They have to sign Dobson, and two bottom pairing D, and a 7th D.

Rumours are they want to move Beauvillier, who makes $4.15m, and has been criticized a lot for his play last 2 years.

They also have Dufour in their system.

If we could somehow walk away with 13th, Dufour and Beauvillier .... obviously we'd need to add.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

Considering they haven't developed a single PPG player in how many years, what's to say the Habs will tank and tank and tank and rebuild correctly where Toronto, Edmonton, Arizona, Buffalo, Ottawa, Jersey, Florida failed so far?

I mean, you'd have to hope the new management is competent enough to be able to develop players.

If they're not, we won't get anywhere whether we tank or not.

 

[26Mats]

Yup. That's the good thing about Petry and Anderson. They have term. So Habs don't need to rush in trading them.

Then again, who else is movable if Price comes off LTIR?

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Then again, who else is movable if Price comes off LTIR?

...we could move a few, if we're not worried about the return (Armia, Hoffman, even Dads)...not worried there...and we all know Floaty will be back on IR come Game #3...