Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 77

[Adriatic]

Omg this season needs to end already so we could get on with the draft and see some movement.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

It doesn't always work. Look at Edmonton, Buffalo, Ottawa, Arizona, Florida, etc. In fact, we know what works is drafting superstars -- what doesn't work is drafting superstars into an atmosphere of eternal and endless suckitude. The Habs cannot purposefully tank for more than three more years, that would be crazy. I honestly doubt they will try to tank after next year is finished.


I think he's consistently good in the playoffs, which is to his credit, but take his career playoff PPG (0.71) and stick it in our ongoing playoffs and you know what? He'd be ranked 65th amongst all skaters.

Like I said: scoring is way up, so you should raise your expectations.


We've had multiple years of top10 picks in the last decade and pretty much nothing to show for it.

Selling off cap-inefficient contracts and signing cap-efficient contracts is very much necessary at all times, it is an ongoing process and good teams do it all the time. Chicago had to shed some contracts such as Hjalmarsson after their first cup win and restock and go for it again. The Habs will have to deal with whatever topX picks they get dealt but the one invariable factor here is TIME. You cannot suck for years on end. I don't see any well-reasoned perspective on the eventual building (as in re-building) that is necessary. If the Habs can trade magic beans that they'll get replenished every year anyway for established young players signed to good RFA contracts I see many advantages and very few disadvantages.

The topic isn't acquiring Laf, or PLD, or Letang or whoever -- it's acknowledging the merit of general strategy to add talent that matches the right age profile and cap planning. It's obviously easier done via drafting but guess what, the Habs are terrible at drafting and development -- and until they prove they aren't, I'm not gonna wish upon magic beans. After this 1OA/Shane Wright, the Habs will need to add D and G and start to act like they want to win. Hopefully the onset of the HuGo Era means we're done with half-assery and non-commitment.

The Endless Tank is the only thing we should be avoiding.

Draft picks get replenished every year, what doesn't get replenished is time and the wear & tear that comes with it. Carey Price was only good enough to rely on for a specific era, the Habs should've been more aggressive in that window to trade futures for presents. Instead they got neither. I don't want a repeat of that.

With the draft lottery being what it is and the Habs' horrific record of drafting and developing talent, there is no question that I'd rather trade for 70+ pt players than hope and pray the magic beans sprout on time to get them through the 'right way'. I genuinely cannot think of the last Habs player drafted by the Habs who has hit 70 points in Habs colours.

Good Lord these takes.

I'll acknowledge that rebuilding doesn't always work when you have horrible management. However, it is also THE ONLY THING THAT WORKS if you look at cap era NHL.

Chicago: Kane and Toews
Tampa: Stamkos and Hedman
Pittsbugh: Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury
Washington: Ovechkin and Backstrom
Colorado: Mackinnon and Makar
Kings: Kopitar, Doughty

Throw this year's Florida and Carolina teams in there for good measure. They'll only be getting better. And Toronto, for all the hilarity of them being unable to leave the first round, have a good competitive hockey team.

TOP-END TALENT. Top-end talent is how you create a long-term competitive team.

Like I try to be understanding of different viewpoints here... But tanking one year and then trying to fill the cupboard with hasbeens (Letang), players that seem to be having trouble reaching their ceiling (Lafreniere), and God knows what else in order to be mediocre rather than acquiring top-end talent for 2-3 years is a strategy so utterly short-sighted that it's as if people live in a a vacuum and don't understand that the last 30 years exist. We've been doing this. It fails.

Shane Wright does not get you to the promised land. You need Bedard (Or Fantilli, or Michkov). You need cost-controlled top-end talent that you can then surround with veterans in order to win.

You need 2-3 year rebuilds minimum to be successful in this league. Look at the teams above. Stop looking for the quick, easy, and ridiculous solution. Pay attention to history and stop being satisfied with garbage.

We've been doing this. Mediocrity for 30 years. Maybe some of you are ok with that, but I'm sure as hell not. I want competence and I want long-term planning and long-term success.

 

[FF de Mars]

The timing is wrong for a 27 year old, but why would they trade him?

Well of course they won't trade him now during the SC finals, but Nichushkin is a UFA after his contract ends when the season is officially over.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Well of course they won't trade him now during the SC finals, but Nichushkin is a UFA after his contract ends when the season is officially over.

...why bust the bank for Nuke when all he'll do is hurt the Discard for Bedard??...we are gonna suck for a couple of years so we can rebuild properly...why do people have a problem with this??...rather go back to the Bargain Bin Era??...scratch and claw our way to backing into the Playoffs and hope Price (if he can even still play, ffs...) goes GOD MODE again??...as much as we luv to bust Laff balls here, it took them sucking hard for an entire DECADE before they could draft some great players and start winning again (albeit in the regular season only)...do we want to build a contender or just be happy languishing in mediocrity for another 30 years??...

 

[Beer and Chips]

Well of course they won't trade him now during the SC finals, but Nichushkin is a UFA after his contract ends when the season is officially over.

 

[Adam Michaels]

It might be in bad timing for the rebuild but a UFA that fits the bill is Nichushkin. Why draft Slaf when you can sign Nuke? They are basically the same player. Nuke is a late bloomer but he learned from the best and you have to bet he's top 6 bound. I remember how highly touted he was in his draft year, he was as touted as Slaf is right now.

I don't think Nuke will hit the market. I expect him to be extended in Colorado.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

...why bust the bank for Nuke when all he'll do is hurt the Discard for Bedard??...we are gonna suck for a couple of years so we can rebuild properly...why do people have a problem with this??...rather go back to the Bargain Bin Era??...scratch and claw our way to backing into the Playoffs and hope Price (if he can even still play, ffs...) goes GOD MODE again??...as much as we luv to bust Laff balls here, it took them sucking hard for an entire DECADE before they could draft some great players and start winning again (albeit in the regular season only)...do we want to build a contender or just be happy languishing in mediocrity for another 30 years??...

I think some want to fight for a playoff spot right this second so that we can languish in mediocrity for another 30 years. I don't understand otherwise

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

I think some want to fight for a playoff spot right this second so that we can languish in mediocrity for another 30 years. I don't understand otherwise

...Marc Bergevin burner accounts, I swear...

 

[FF de Mars]

I don't think Nuke will hit the market. I expect him to be extended in Colorado.

What makes you think Nuke won't cash in? He's set up to sign an expensive long contract Colorado can't afford. He could also pull a Crosby and sign for less, sure. However, Avs fans seem to think he's too expensive, that Lekhonen is his replacement.

 

[Adam Michaels]

What makes you think Nuke won't cash in? He's set up to sign an expensive long contract Colorado can't afford. He could also pull a Crosby and sign for less, sure. However, Avs fans seem to think he's too expensive, that Lekhonen is his replacement.

They've already started talking extension with him and his agent. They still have ground to make up to come to an agreement. But it's clear that Avs are making him a priority among their many UFA's.

And IF Nuke does hit free agency, he'd obviously be looking for a pay day. As you say, he'd be looking to cash in. Do you really think Montreal is in a position to meet his demands? They're looking to shed cap, not add to it.

 

[26Mats]

Omg this season needs to end already so we could get on with the draft and see some movement.

man, this year is a DEEP crop of free agents. That, I would think, would lower the demand for our vets...

Not too many point producing D though. So that should help Petry's value. Only Letang and Klingberg had more than the 26 points Chiarot had...

PLAYER (283)	TEAM	TYPE	AGE	POS.	HEIGHT	WEIGHT	SHOOTS	GP	G	A	P	W	GAA	SV%	2021-2022 CAP HIT
Johnny Gaudreau	CGY	UFA	28.8	LW	5' 9"	165	L	82	40	75	115				$6,750,000
Nazem Kadri	COL	UFA	31.7	C	6' 0"	192	L	71	28.	59	87				$4,500,000
Filip Forsberg	NSH	UFA	27.8	C	6' 1"	205	R	69	42	42	84				$6,000,000
Kris Letang	PIT	UFA	35.2	D	6' 0"	201	R	78	10	58	68				$7,250,000
Claude Giroux	FLA	UFA	34.4	C	5' 11"	185	R	75	21	44	65				$8,275,000
Patrice Bergeron	BOS	UFA	36.9	C	6' 1"	195	R	73	25	40	65				$6,875,000
Andre Burakovsky	COL	UFA	27.3	LW	6' 3"	201	L	80	22	39	61				$4,900,000
David Perron	STL	UFA	34.1	LW	6' 0"	200	R	67	27	30	57				$4,000,000
Ryan Strome	NYR	UFA	28.9	C	6' 1"	191	R	74	21	33	54				$4,500,000
Andrew Copp	NYR	UFA	27.9	C	6' 1"	206	L	72	21	32	53				$3,640,000
Philip Kessel	ARI	UFA	34.7	RW	6' 0"	223	R	82	8	44	52				$6,800,000
Valeri Nichushkin	COL	UFA	27.2	RW	6' 4"	210	L	62	25	27	52				$2,500,000
Vincent Trocheck	CAR	UFA	28.9	C	5' 10"	183	R	81	21	30	51				$4,750,000
Ondrej Palat	TBL	UFA	31.2	LW	6' 0"	194	L	77	18	31	49				$5,300,000
John Klingberg	DAL	UFA	29.8	D	6' 3"	190	R	74	6	41	47				$4,250,000
Paul Stastny	WPG	UFA	36.4	C	6' 0"	193	L	71	21	24	45				$3,750,000
Nino Niederreiter	CAR	UFA	29.8	RW	6' 2"	218	L	75	24	20	44				$5,250,000
Evan Rodrigues	PIT	UFA	28.8	LW	5' 11"	184	R	82	19	24	43				$1,000,000
Evgeni Malkin	PIT	UFA	35.8	C	6' 3"	195	L	41	20	22	42				$9,500,000
Rickard Rakell	PIT	UFA	29.1	C	6' 1"	195	R	70	20	21	41				$3,789,444
Max Domi	CAR	UFA	27.2	LW	5' 10"	194	L	72	11	28	39				$5,300,000
Evander Kane	EDM	UFA	30.8	LW	6' 2"	210	L	43	22	17	39				$2,108,696
Reilly Smith	VGK	UFA	31.2	RW	6' 1"	183	L	56	16	22	38				$5,000,000
Ryan Getzlaf	ANA	UFA	37.1	C	6' 4"	220	R	56	3	34	37				$3,000,000
Frank Vatrano	NYR	UFA	28.2	LW	5' 11"	197	L	71	18	14	32				$2,533,333
Ilya Mikheyev	TOR	UFA	27.7	LW	6' 2"	192	L	53	21	11	32				$1,645,000
Nicholas Paul	TBL	UFA	27.2	C	6' 3"	219	L	80	16	16	32				$1,350,000
Sam Gagner	DET	UFA	32.8	C	5' 11"	197	R	81	13	18	31				$850,000
Ryan Donato	SEA	UFA	26.2	C	6' 0"	192	L	74	16	15	31				$750,000
Calle Jarnkrok	CGY	UFA	30.8	C	5' 11"	186	R	66	12	18	30				$2,000,000
Vladislav Namestnikov	DAL	UFA	29.6	C	6' 0"	180	L	75	16	14	30				$2,000,000
Marcus Johansson	WAS	UFA	31.7	C	6' 1"	203	L	69	9	20	29				$1,500,000
Dustin Brown	LAK	UFA	37.6	RW	6' 0"	210	R	64	9	19	28				$5,875,000
Ben Chiarot	FLA	UFA	31.1	D	6' 3"	234	L	74	9	17	26				$3,500,000

 

[FF de Mars]

They've already started talking extension with him and his agent. They still have ground to make up to come to an agreement. But it's clear that Avs are making him a priority among their many UFA's.

And IF Nuke does hit free agency, he'd obviously be looking for a pay day. As you say, he'd be looking to cash in. Do you really think Montreal is in a position to meet his demands? They're looking to shed cap, not add to it.

Montréal is in the perfect position to meet his demands, actually. Price and Weber are off the books, Armia's, Hoffman's, Petry's, Edmunston's, and Douin's contracts will soon fade away, Gallagher is the only real deadweight but maybe he can have a comeback, he's only 30. They can sign Nuke and meet the cap, and then they will still have enough to extend Caufield, Wright and the defensemen.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

I wouldn't sign Nuke to the big contract he will want. He only had 1 great year in the nhl and he did it while playing on a stack offensive team.
His contract has the potential to go very bad.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Montréal is in the perfect position to meet his demands, actually. Price and Weber are off the books, Armia's, Hoffman's, Petry's, Edmunston's, and Douin's contracts will soon fade away, Gallagher is the only real deadweight but maybe he can have a comeback, he's only 30. They can sign Nuke and meet the cap, and then they will still have enough to extend Caufield, Wright and the defensemen.

...honestly, what would be the sense adding Nuke, who would be looking for big money on a long-term deal, when we aren't even close to the middle of the pack, let alone the top of it??...rebuilds rarely start with adding big UFAs...

 

[BaseballCoach]

He was a -18 at 5v5 this year and the remainder of the minuses were from empty nets and shorties. -18 at 5v5 on a last place team with zero depth, playing in front of Montembeault, Primeau, and Hammond, and with Ben Chiarot being used as the #1D for the majority of the season is not something that concerns me.

I truly do not understand all the agita around Suzuki's contract. 7.875 is not superstar franchise player mega money, I've said this a million times but as a percentage of the cap it is the equivalent of paying 5.75M to Plekanec instead of 5M back in 2010. Kevin Hayes costs you 7.1M in UFA these days, Tyler Bozak costs you 5M. By the time next season starts he'll already be ranked in the mid 20s AAV ranking for C's and will drop into the mid 40s to low 50s within a few years. He is currently paid to be an average to below average 1C, and will be paid to be an average 2C through the bulk of the contract.

As a percentage of the cap Suzuki is paid pretty much in line with what Derek Stepan was paid through his prime. The absolute worse case scenario is we paid for Stepan and got Stepan, which is absolutely fine as a 2C. And that's the worst case, given Suzuki at present projects as a much better player than Stepan was. It truly is the absolute least of our worries, at worst we have a great 2C making 2C money, at best we have a tandem 1C like Krejci or Backstrom making 2C money.

My concern is not cap, it is improving the defensive performance of the club, and that includes the forward with the most ice time at this point.

I think Caufield has to move back to his natural side and a decent LW in terms of puck battles needed.

...honestly, what would be the sense adding Nuke, who would be looking for big money on a long-term deal, when we aren't even close to the middle of the pack, let alone the top of it??...rebuilds rarely start with adding big UFAs...

Panarin the exception? Mauybe Chara too. But Nuke is not exceptional like those guys, able to make a huge impact on his own.

 

[FF de Mars]

...honestly, what would be the sense adding Nuke, who would be looking for big money on a long-term deal, when we aren't even close to the middle of the pack, let alone the top of it??...rebuilds rarely start with adding big UFAs...

I want a real rebuild too. I'm just exploring possibilities. Slaf and Nuke would have the same impact on the team, signing him would be the equivalant of drafting a top 5OV player... wouldn't leave Wright dry all alone on his island of a line.

 

[ReHabs]

Good Lord these takes.

I'll acknowledge that rebuilding doesn't always work when you have horrible management. However, it is also THE ONLY THING THAT WORKS if you look at cap era NHL.

Chicago: Kane and Toews
Tampa: Stamkos and Hedman
Pittsbugh: Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury
Washington: Ovechkin and Backstrom
Colorado: Mackinnon and Makar
Kings: Kopitar, Doughty

Throw this year's Florida and Carolina teams in there for good measure. They'll only be getting better. And Toronto, for all the hilarity of them being unable to leave the first round, have a good competitive hockey team.

TOP-END TALENT. Top-end talent is how you create a long-term competitive team.

Like I try to be understanding of different viewpoints here... But tanking one year and then trying to fill the cupboard with hasbeens (Letang), players that seem to be having trouble reaching their ceiling (Lafreniere), and God knows what else in order to be mediocre rather than acquiring top-end talent for 2-3 years is a strategy so utterly short-sighted that it's as if people live in a a vacuum and don't understand that the last 30 years exist. We've been doing this. It fails.

Shane Wright does not get you to the promised land. You need Bedard (Or Fantilli, or Michkov). You need cost-controlled top-end talent that you can then surround with veterans in order to win.

You need 2-3 year rebuilds minimum to be successful in this league. Look at the teams above. Stop looking for the quick, easy, and ridiculous solution. Pay attention to history and stop being satisfied with garbage.

We've been doing this. Mediocrity for 30 years. Maybe some of you are ok with that, but I'm sure as hell not. I want competence and I want long-term planning and long-term success.

Slow down there.

I'm all for adding top-end talent (by any means necessary). I'm not for a perpetual, never ending rebuild where we huddle over magic beans and rub our hands hoping for the good luck candy mountain promised land.

So far I'm sure you'd agree with me.

Now, I disagree that you can draft your way to top-end talent and I also disagree that you can get top-end talent through the draft as if it's a sure thing. 1) Vegas showed that you don't need to draft a single amateur player and still field a formidable team with terrific players and depth and 2) The Habs drafted in the top10 three times in the Bergevin era and have nothing to show for it... other than 40 point oft-injured winger Josh Anderson.

For the Vegas example, they're so aggressive that they get into cap issues but somehow they managed to have better forwards and defenders than the Habs who never "mortgaged the future". On the other hand Edmonton drafted top5 how many years in a row and they don't look like they're close. Colorado went through TWO rebuilds back to back. Buffalo, Ottawa, and Arizona -- gimme a break. Florida got swept and might lose Hubes soon. This is a broken paradigm.

You want to know what else has actually failed? Holding onto late stage 1st round picks and refusing to trade quantity for quality whenever the opportunity was there.

A two year rebuild means after the 2023 draft the Habs start acquiring talent with an eye of making a deep playoff run. I'm 100% behind this. Let's do it. Anything longer exposes the roster to tail risks relating to the ravages of time: contract issues, cap issues, injury issues, etc. Also, imagine you draft a NCAA player in 2024, typically that means by 2027 at the earliest we can expect to see them in the NHL... and who knows how many years until they become "top-end talent", two, three? 2030 you want to compete with a 29 year old, statistically-past-his prime Nick Suzuki? You really want to wait nearly a decade for this Top-End Talent, yeah?

We have Suzuki, we have Caufield, we have the 1OA -- we can acquire the other core pieces without waiting for the magic beans to sprout. I'm tired of mediocrity and the most mediocre thing the Habs can do is to continue the asinine and thoughtless "won't mortgage the future" mantra. It's meaningless at best.

The Habs didn't win anything in these past many many years because they were not aggressive or ambitious. And they hid behind good goaltending if they ever got too close. The fact is good teams constantly build and re-build, and we have three very valuable pieces in hand we don't need to wait three more years to add talent, we can do it today. The Habs never have soil rich enough for the magic beans to sprout anyway -- after ten years all we have to point at is Caufield, a sophomore.

 

[Jack Skellington]

There is guys like Nichushkin available every year. Why would he want to come play on the last place team. I'd rather wait and sign Dubois.

 

[McPhees Moustache]

...honestly, what would be the sense adding Nuke, who would be looking for big money on a long-term deal, when we aren't even close to the middle of the pack, let alone the top of it??...rebuilds rarely start with adding big UFAs...

Exactly - the re-build should finish with adding UFA's
Shop for the specific weaknesses you haven't been able to fill through the draft.
Until our draft picks have started to develop we don't know what our needs actually are - some top picks may bust, other diamonds in the rough may emerge changing what we think our needs are after this draft

 

[Twisted Sinister]

I want a real rebuild too. I'm just exploring possibilities. Slaf and Nuke would have the same impact on the team, signing him would be the equivalant of drafting a top 5OV player...

27 is too old and the player is too inconsistent. He's no Chara

 

[Adam Michaels]

Montréal is in the perfect position to meet his demands, actually. Price and Weber are off the books, Armia's, Hoffman's, Petry's, Edmunston's, and Douin's contracts will soon fade away, Gallagher is the only real deadweight but maybe he can have a comeback, he's only 30. They can sign Nuke and meet the cap, and then they will still have enough to extend Caufield, Wright and the defensemen.

No. They are not in the perfect position to sign him to the money and term he'll be looking for. As I said, Habs are looking to create cap space. Not add to it.

 

[FF de Mars]

27 is too old and the player is too inconsistent. He's no Chara

You have to bet he learned his lesson playing with great players and now is imitating them as role models? Posters on HF are really adverse to risk, but you can't stay confortable if you want things to change. Listen, I want a real rebuild too, I proposed we trade Caufield and Suzuki to ensure it, but no one wants to risk it. From the way things are looking to be, you won't get that, I think the Habs will compete and draft mid range again; hence why not give them something to work with, if that's the direction you're taking? You're fooling yourself if you think a team with so many vets and rising prospects will finish last again, given the vets were exhausted from covid and the last SC run. Given you now have guys like Barron and Guhle and more of them that we don't know about and can't predict their rise, they will come out of nowhere and surprise us playing solid minutes.

 

[ReHabs]

Exactly - the re-build should finish with adding UFA's
Shop for the specific weaknesses you haven't been able to fill through the draft.
Until our draft picks have started to develop we don't know what our needs actually are - some top picks may bust, other diamonds in the rough may emerge changing what we think our needs are after this draft

You can always trade good players to make room for cheaper players. For instance, that's the benefit of having actual depth -- it allows the likes of Roy and Farrell and Kidney to play in the NHL behind a solid, reliable, professional, adult top6. And when the time comes that the youngsters start to demand contracts that price out the veteran ahead of them... you find a way to get rid of the veteran. Way easier than finding NHL-ready young talent.

Example out of a hat: Say the Habs sign Malkin to a 21m/3yr contract and have the following top6. You don't think that'll be a massive benefit to Wright and Caufield and Suzuki alike? It'll help the so-called rebuild because it'll allow them to play while the likes of Malkin and Dvorak take on the hard minutes. That's exactly how Boston did it with Pasternak btw.

 

[Beendair Donedat]

Take it for what it’s worth.

 

[26Mats]

Take it for what it’s worth.

That would be a great return.

Do they have the cap space?