Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 61

[NotProkofievian]

Under what scenario? That you’re retaining salary on 3 players for the next 5 years you mean?

obviously disregarding the logic and realism of that even happening?

You don't have to retain needlessly, but some retention, especially on Price should be on the table. But I'm just wondering what you think happens to those players after a few years?

 

[417]

When do you think this team will be able to compete for championships?

As soon as possible I hope.

But I think a reasonable timeframe is 3-5 years.

And do you think Price, Gallagher and Petry will still be able to contribute at this point, considering that we are already observing a decline in Petry and Gallagher's play?

Yes, I don’t see what not…doesn’t mean I wouldn’t move them if the right deal came long.

The Petry talk is hilarious if you ask me…6 months ago his contract was a steal.

6 months later we have to retain half his salary because we’re so desperate to move him?

I don’t know lol I’m not as bipolar as most Habs fans.

Im not a prisoner of the moment.

If your answer to the first question is in the next two years, I could see why you think they might serve a purpose here, but I don't see what kind of overhaul could turn this bottom of the league team around so fast.

I want and expect this team to be a playoff team within 2 years.

But I know I’m like a unicorn here because I want my team to have success and not suck.

If it's in the line of around 2024-2025 playoffs, which is still optimistic, Price and Petry will be 37, Gallagher 33. Not sure what kind of role they will be able to fill with this team, but at their salary, it won't leave us a lot of room for improvement due to cap reasons, so they better be playing like their were in their primes.

The same roles all veterans on cup winning teams serve.

 

[CHfan1]

Gorton still needs a mandate to act, just as Bergevin’s tenure had parameters.

I too hope that Gorton has wide latitude to act but the only reason this team is where it is, is because of ownership decisions.

Molson did mention he was open to a rebuild:

 

[417]

Why would we spend assets in the near future to replace what we traded? What we trying to do? Rebuild into a contender or be a bubble playoff team?

Because lost in all of this excitement to tank, tank tank...there's also players on your current roster, and/or who will be integrating the roster in the coming years, and they need to be surrounded properly as well.

This is as much part of the "rebuild" as just tanking and drafting 1st overall.

You know...so we don't have Oilers-like situations where they've got Connor McDavid centering Zack Kassian and Drake Caggiula because they never cared about anything else then tanking.

I'll use your "practical" word. "It's not practical to think that we can rebuild in one draft". You rather not draft in the bottom 5 next year if we don't have to? What are these future outcomes where "we don't have too" and we end up with a contender? What are you seeing that I and others don't? MacKinnon is going to sign with us as a UFA? Sounds like more bubble playoff team strategy to me

We've been rebuilding before this year, you're just fooled by the Cup run and thinking this is going to start this year.

It already started, we've just got someone more capable of handling that process now

 

[Runner77]

Molson did mention he was open to a rebuild:

I had seen that. But, that was in response to a question. It doesn’t mean that’s what will ultimately be decided. We’re not privy to backroom dealings but we do have a ten year track record of shortsighted ownership behavior.

When Bergevin’s management failed, Geoff’s idea of “leaving no stone unturned” was to fully entrust Bergevin to conduct a review. The disaster artist was allowed to investigate his own disaster.

Like you, I’m hopeful we get to see Gorton perform to his strengths. That means ownership has to give him a clear mandate to do that.

 

[417]

You don't have to retain needlessly, but some retention, especially on Price should be on the table. But I'm just wondering what you think happens to those players after a few years?

Well what does it matter in that scenario since they're on other teams.

Sorry, not even trying to be a smart ass, I think i'm missing something.

Again, i'm not opposed to retaining salary for Ben Chiarot for example, if that helps facilitate a trade and throws an extra asset our way. I'm all for it.

If a team was interested in Jo Drouin, i'd retain since he's only got 1 year left next season.

I think a GM can reasonably go to his Owner to get the OK for this. He's essentially asking the GM to foot the bill for his mistake, usually, a temporary solution.

But asking an Owner to do this, for 3 players for 4-5 years each???

And it's not like we're talking about 3 scrubs...we're talking about Price going to another team to be the #1 goalie, Jeff Petry to be a top 4 minute eating Dman and Gallagher to be a top 6ish 20 goal scorer.

I don't think this is a realistic ask.

 

[417]

I had seen that. But, that was in response to a question. It doesn’t mean that’s what will ultimately be decided. We’re not privy to backroom dealings but we do have a ten year track record of shortsighted ownership behavior.

When Bergevin’s management failed, Geoff’s idea of “leaving no stone unturned” was to fully entrust Bergevin to conduct a review. The disaster artist was allowed to investigate his own disaster.

Like you, I’m hopeful we get to see Gorton perform to his strengths. That means ownership has to give him a clear mandate to do that.

More importantly..."rebuild" does not have to mean "firesale, everyone must go".

Once more, the Habs are the worst team in the NHL this season in terms of points pecentage WITH those players.

How can anyone argue that they must go in order to "protect a rebuild".

 

[Tim Wallach]

Kypreos suggesting Price may shut down for the season as the rehabilitation isn't going well.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Because lost in all of this excitement to tank, tank tank...there's also players on your current roster, and/or who will be integrating the roster in the coming years, and they need to be surrounded properly as well.

This is as much part of the "rebuild" as just tanking and drafting 1st overall.

You know...so we don't have Oilers-like situations where they've got Connor McDavid centering Zack Kassian and Drake Caggiula because they never cared about anything else then tanking.


We've been rebuilding before this year, you're just fooled by the Cup run and thinking this is going to start this year.

It already started, we've just got someone more capable of handling that process now

Your idea of a rebuild is different than mine. I get some of your concerns and it's not overlooked on my part.

We were not rebuilding before this year. We did a reset/retool. There is a difference

 

[417]

Kypreos suggesting Price may shut down for the season as the rehabilitation isn't going well.

Sure sounds appealing for perspective teams to trade for.

That's exactly what you want to read when you're considering adding almost 45M in cash to your payroll for the next 5 years.

Please do yourselves a favor people - just accept that Price is going to be here for the next little bit. That's not necessarily bad thing.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Well what does it matter in that scenario since they're on other teams.

Sorry, not even trying to be a smart ass, I think i'm missing something.

The answer is that they're going to be retired anyways. At least Petry and Price will be. Train's pulling into the last stop, time to get off.

Again, i'm not opposed to retaining salary for Ben Chiarot for example, if that helps facilitate a trade and throws an extra asset our way. I'm all for it.

If a team was interested in Jo Drouin, i'd retain since he's only got 1 year left next season.

I think a GM can reasonably go to his Owner to get the OK for this. He's essentially asking the GM to foot the bill for his mistake, usually, a temporary solution.

But asking an Owner to do this, for 3 players???

And it's not like we're talking about 3 scrubs...we're talking about Price going to another team to be the #1 goalie, Jeff Petry to be a top 4 minute eating Dman and Gallagher to be a top 6ish 20 goal scorer.

I don't think this is a realistic ask.

Yeah I don't think for all 3 players it makes sense. But for any one of those three, just a little bit of retention to make the deal work?

 

[Tim Wallach]

Sure sounds appealing for perspective teams to trade for.

That's exactly what you want to read when you're considering adding almost 45M in cash to your payroll for the next 5 years.

Disaster if true. His market value (including to his current team) just plunging. That contract

 

[417]

Your idea of a rebuild is different than mine. I get some of your concerns and it's not overlooked on my part.

We were not rebuilding before this year. We did a reset/retool. There is a difference

Call it whatever you want...the result is the same.

 

[Runner77]

More importantly..."rebuild" does not have to mean "firesale, everyone must go".

Once more, the Habs are the worst team in the NHL this season in terms of points pecentage WITH those players.

How can anyone argue that they must go in order to "protect a rebuild".

I don’t want to get into a semantics argument but if it’s a quick turnaround, then it’s not a rebuild but a reset.

I don’t think ownership is game for a long term plan that involves rostering mediocre teams. The loss of revenues from the pandemic plus ownership having invested heavily in adding loges and improving existing ones and ownership’s own decade-long track record suggests to me that this will be a reset.

 

[Runner77]

Kypreos suggesting Price may shut down for the season as the rehabilitation isn't going well.

So the Habs will dangle Allen, if they haven’t been doing that already. At least, they wouldn’t have to retain on Allen in a trade.

 

[417]

The answer is that they're going to be retired anyways. At least Petry and Price will be. Train's pulling into the last stop, time to get off.

Price I kind of agree, he's got 5 years left on his deal and i'd be surprised if he finishes that contract. Which again, is another reason why any team trading for him is highly unlikely.

Petry though?

Again, this is a player that 6 months ago everyone thought his deal was great. I remember reading at some of the Dman contracts handed out this summer how much value Petry's deal was. And he's only signed for 3 more years after this one, with a declining actual salary in every season until it expries.

He's paid like a #3-4 Dman at 6.25M...I don't see what the issue is.

I'm not giving this player away...and this comes from someone whose been extremely critical of his play this season. He's a much better player than what he's shown this season, I haven't forgotten that.

Yeah I don't think for all 3 players it makes sense. But for any one of those three, just a little bit of retention to make the deal work?

I'd consider it for Gallagher only because I think other than Price, he's by far the worse contract on this team, they're also deep at RW and the contract was signed purely based on emotional attachment. I hated the second it was announced.

Not Jeff Petry though...no freaking way.

 

[417]

Disaster if true. His market value (including to his current team) just plunging. That contract

He's never going to play more than 40-45 games in a season, he's likely to have a few more surgeries just to allow him to continue playing, IF that's what he wants to do.

He can still serve as an excellent mentor for a team that is going to try to get younger over the next few years...there's still value in that.

 

[Mandalorian]

Because lost in all of this excitement to tank, tank tank...there's also players on your current roster, and/or who will be integrating the roster in the coming years, and they need to be surrounded properly as well.

This is as much part of the "rebuild" as just tanking and drafting 1st overall.

You know...so we don't have Oilers-like situations where they've got Connor McDavid centering Zack Kassian and Drake Caggiula because they never cared about anything else then tanking.


We've been rebuilding before this year, you're just fooled by the Cup run and thinking this is going to start this year.

It already started, we've just got someone more capable of handling that process now

Most often that not, "Rebuilding" a team means taking a group of veteran, but (mostly) mediocre players, and trading them for younger, unproven players, or good picks, in the hope that the younger players will collectively "grow" into something better than what you started out with.
When was the last time the Habs seriously did this? Actually, they lost their young high pick in Kotkaniemi which was a pillar in the start of a start of a rebuild attempt around 2018 (which actually turned quick in a rushed retool) when we traded Pac and Plekanec, because they refused to pay him/ failed to properly develop him and rushed him instead, and traded valuable picks as a knee-jerk reaction to get Dvorak. They haven't moved any older important pieces of the core to aquire interesting futur assets beside Shaw three years ago (unless you think moves such as Kovalchuk for a 3rd round was part of a great rebuild masterplan). They haven't been any true effort to really rebuild the core of this team in the past 3 years, Bergevin betted on his vets like Weber, Price, Petry and Gallagher instead of trading them while there value was still high.

Only thing they did is rush the rebuild by putting a 18 years old rookie on the team instead of being patient, making some "hockey trade" like Anderson for Domi, traded a couple of picks for Edmunson, Armia, Cousins and Allen, signed Toffoli, Bergevin tried to do some quick patch work instead of properly give a chance to the Habs to build strong foundation for years to come.

 

[417]

I don’t want to get into a semantics argument but if it’s a quick turnaround, then it’s not a rebuild but a reset.

That depends how effectively the people in charge do their jobs. I'm not one who believes it needs to take 5 years.

One way to make sure that task doesn't take 5+ years is to not give away players for the sake of getting worst.

I don’t think ownership is game for a long term plan that involves rostering mediocre teams. The loss of revenues from the pandemic plus ownership having invested heavily in adding loges and improving existing ones and ownership’s own decade-long track record suggests to me that this will be a reset.

Neither am I...but why does it have to be one extreme or the other?

Why does NOT wanting a firesale have to = rostering mediocre teams.

It doesn't have to be that static.

 

[417]

Most often that not, "Rebuilding" a team means taking a group of veteran, but (mostly) mediocre players, and trading them for younger, unproven players, or good picks, in the hope that the younger players will collectively "grow" into something better than what you started out with.

"rebuilding" can mean a lot of things...there's no cookie cutter way of rebuilding.

We can look at different examples and what made some successful vs. others not, and we'll see different principles applied at different times.

There's no reason to be so static about a process that's so fluid.

When was the last time the Habs seriously did this? Actually, they lost their young high pick in Kotkaniemi which was a pillar in the start of a start of a rebuild attempt around 2018 (which actually turned quick in a rushed retool) when we traded Pac and Plekanec, because they refused to pay him/ failed to properly develop him and rushed him instead, and traded valuable picks as a knee-jerk reaction to get Dvorak. They haven't moved any older important pieces of the core to aquire interesting futur assets beside Shaw three years ago (unless you think moves such as Kovalchuk for a 3rd round was part of a great rebuild masterplan). They haven't been any true effort to really rebuild the core of this team in the past 3 years, Bergevin betted on his vets like Weber, Price, Petry and Gallagher instead of trading they while there value was still high.

Trust me, I hated the way the Kotkaniemi situation went down...and when this team was mediocre as ****, try to find anyone who posted here around that time who would tell you that I wasn't pushing FOR trading Plekanec.

Had many heated debates on the topic at the time.

But i'm not holding Gorton/New GM to the standard that Marc Bergevin built..i'm not using how he went about things as the basis.

So it's really not relevant.

IF Gorton decided to do a "reset" (again, I hate getting caught in semantics and titles that are meaningless) I'd expect he'd be A LOT more successful in executing it than his predecessor was.

Only thing they did is rush the rebuild by putting a 18 years old rookie on the team instead of being patient, making some "hockey trade" like Anderson for Domi, traded a couple of picks for Edmunson, Armia, Cousins and Allen, signed Toffoli, Bergevin tried to do some quick patch work instead of properly give a chance to the Habs to build strong foundation for years to come.

Once more...Bergevin's methods aren't the standard i'm measuring the new Management against.

 

[Runner77]

That depends how effectively the people in charge do their jobs. I'm not one who believes it needs to take 5 years.

One way to make sure that task doesn't take 5+ years is to not give away players for the sake of getting worst.



Neither am I...but why does it have to be one extreme or the other?

Why does NOT wanting a firesale have to = rostering mediocre teams.

It doesn't have to be that static.

Cause if it’s a rebuild, it usually involves the adding of a lot of futures and unloading expensive assets to create cap room. It’s tough to do that and expect to be competitive on the short term. What’s worse in our case, is that term was gifted to several mediocre assets on top of it all.

Remember when Bergevin was trying to build through the draft while making the playoffs? You have to choose a path. Expecting to implement the type of roster turnover that a rebuild suggests is not a two year affair typically.

 

[417]

So the Habs will dangle Allen, if they haven’t been doing that already. At least, they wouldn’t have to retain on Allen in a trade.

There's the deal we should be pushing for...Jake Allen has been great on a shitty team this season, he's got a great contract and provides stability for a team like the Oilers that doesn't need someone to be Hasek in 99'-like.

They just need someone to be "Dwayne Roloson" circa 2005-06 went they went to the Finals.

oddly enough he was acquired by the Oilers at the deadline for a 1st round pick that year.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Price I kind of agree, he's got 5 years left on his deal and i'd be surprised if he finishes that contract. Which again, is another reason why any team trading for him is highly unlikely.

Petry though?

Again, this is a player that 6 months ago everyone thought his deal was great. I remember reading at some of the Dman contracts handed out this summer how much value Petry's deal was. And he's only signed for 3 more years after this one, with a declining actual salary in every season until it expries.

He's paid like a #3-4 Dman at 6.25M...I don't see what the issue is.

I'm not giving this player away...and this comes from someone whose been extremely critical of his play this season. He's a much better player than what he's shown this season, I haven't forgotten that.


I'd consider it for Gallagher only because I think other than Price, he's by far the worse contract on this team, they're also deep at RW and the contract was signed purely based on emotional attachment. I hated the second it was announced.

Not Jeff Petry though...no freaking way.

I certainly did not want to sign Petry to that contract. Petry is 34, and has 12 pro seasons under his belt. For all the reasons you've listed here, he might have some serious trade value. But that value is about as high as it's ever going to be. We can either get it, or risk getting nothing at all, as has been the habs' habit since Gainey.

 

[Mandalorian]

Cause if it’s a rebuild, it usually involves the adding of a lot of futures and unloading expensive assets to create cap room. It’s tough to do that and expect to be competitive on the short term. What’s worse in our case, is that term was gifted to several mediocre assets on top of it all.

Remember when Bergevin was trying to build through the draft while making the playoffs? You have to choose a path. Expecting to implement the type of roster turnover that a rebuild suggests is not a two year affair typically.

Even for the Rangers which people love to use as an example of a quick rebuild, it took them 3 seasons before the Fox, Panarin and Trouba aquisition (which are once in a blue moon aquisition on the trade and UFA market for the first two) started to really paid dividend. Zibanejad was a trade made 6 seasons ago. And Shesterkin was a 2014 pick.

This team(the Habs) isn't competitive next season, no way.

 

[Mandalorian]

There's the deal we should be pushing for...Jake Allen has been great on a shitty team this season, he's got a great contract and provides stability for a team like the Oilers that doesn't need someone to be Hasek in 99'-like.

They just need someone to be "Dwayne Roloson" circa 2005-06 went they went to the Finals.

oddly enough he was acquired by the Oilers at the deadline for a 1st round pick that year.

They had Chris freaking Pronger at the blue line in 2005-2006 when they went to the final, this change the game as far as which kind of goaltender you need to compete when you have a HHOF manning your defense.