HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #88: 2024 Off-Season Thread

[Habs10Habs]

Can Laine just get traded elsewhere so people can stop talking about this heavily flawed player as if he’s anything near the 2nd overall talent he was touted to be.

Bro, I can only read so many posts about when Demigod is coming lol

The cost to get him would be no where near the 2nd overall talent he was once touted to be. So I don't think you'll see too many posters here claiming that's what we'd be getting.

 

[Habs10Habs]

On the Roy side, I get the 'earn' it thoughts. But look at what happens to a player's development when he plays with better players. Their play improves - sometimes drastically.

I'm of the mindset that you give the player every chance to succeed. If they don't you re-evaluate. But I don't see how putting Roy with say... Anderson and Dvorak is going to do anything but slow his growth.

I see your point, and I remember one of my Uncles telling me that back in the day. Whenever a young player with potential was added to the team. He'd be put on a line with Beliveau, H. Richard etc..

Being around the team full time and getting solid 3rd line minutes is a good start for Roy. As we both know, our team is far from being ammune from injuries. He may have to start with Anderson and Dvorak. He'll get his chance to play with Dach or Suzuki.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Lol I pray atleast once a day because I'm so grateful we didn't get PLD.

It's possible that obtaining Laine could blow up in our faces. I just feel confident enough in our coaching staff and management group. That they could provide Laine with all he needs to succeed. It's a gamble and definitely not a "no risk" move. IMO we have the assets, we have the cap space. If he crashes, we hold salary and dump him at the trade deadline. If he does well, HuGo looks like a mofo genius.

As I said, I wouldn't do it. But it's not the end of the world if we did.

If we got Laine, I'd hope for the best. No doubt the man has talent. But I don't think he ever reaches the upside we all thought he had when he was drafted.

Ideally if we're cup contending Roy is on the 3rd line, much like toffoli in LA during his time there

I think that's where he and Newhook eventually line up along with Beck. Players of that caliber on the 3rd line is an indication of a really deep team.

I see your point, and I remember one of my Uncles telling me that back in the day. Whenever a young player with potential was added to the team. He'd be put on a line with Beliveau, H. Richard etc..

Being around the team full time and getting solid 3rd line minutes is a good start for Roy. As we both know, our team is far from being ammune from injuries. He may have to start with Anderson and Dvorak. He'll get his chance to play with Dach or Suzuki.

Unless we add a player, I don't see anyone better than Roy on the second line. And I think it would do wonders for his development.

We'll see I guess.

 

[Habs10Habs]

nope he needs a chance with the habs.

but on a lighter topic, some still talking about PLD

Ok new rule. If you mention PLD. You have to drop and give me 20 push ups.

Damn it, now I have to do 20 lol

As I said, I wouldn't do it. But it's not the end of the world if we did.

If we got Laine, I'd hope for the best. No doubt the man has talent. But I don't think he ever reaches the upside we all thought he had when he was drafted.

Repect!

In fairness, I'm a huge fan of Laine's. Even I don't feel he'll ever reach the heights he was expected to reach. In saying that, I can't see us obtaining a player with his tools. For a reasonable price. If he turns it around and reaches 80% of his potential. It's worth the risk.

 

[Habs10Habs]

Unless we add a player, I don't see anyone better than Roy on the second line. And I think it would do wonders for his development.

We'll see I guess.

I"m not against giving Roy a shot. I liked what I saw of him last season. It was too small of a window IMO. I would like him to prove a bit more.

 

[ReHabs]

Simple response format because the quote gore is getting too much @Lafleursguy

1. The roster as it is will not have a substantially better performance than last year (the Weak Roster argument)
That's fine but not the optimal course of action (ie ReHabs is not being impatient; we're just having hockey talk in July)

2. It would be better to improve the roster and enjoy more success and more meaningful games in the regular season (the Incremental Progress argument)
3. Success in the playoffs is generally predicated on experience in the playoffs; experience in the playoffs is predicated on success in the regular season (the No-Flip-Switch argument)
4. To be successful in the playoffs this budding team needs to experience regular season success (the Taste-of-the-Playoffs-is-Valuable argument)
5. Since the Habs have finished bottom5 for two years straight, by definition the top6, bottom6, and d-corps could all be improved (the Rebuilding-requires-Building argument)
6. The top6 is bad because: a) Dach is extremely injury prone and unproven as a secondary scorer, b) Roy is unproven and a long-shot bet, and c) there is no 7th option top6 player in the Habs depth chart in case of injury or underperformance.* (the Bad Top6 argument)

7. The availability of Patrick Laine at a relatively low cost is itself a worthwhile gambit to improve the top6 and is worth pursuing because it would give the Habs sorely needed scoring depth
8. Patrick Laine is not the only way to improve the top6: there is also Rutger McGroarty who is in a completely different situation and has a completely different player profile. There is also Necas, and Zegras, and who knows who else could be available. Some would say there is also Max Pacioretty but at this point there are other considerations and diminishing returns.

Improving the roster with a two-year commitment is almost perfectly in line with what Hughes outright said he wants to do. I believe that's what Hughes sought to do with Marchessault who would've been a more safe gamble than Patrick Laine.

Because there are interesting prospects coming into the picture, the Habs do not need to make long-term or "transformative" commitments until they know how these prospects will fare in the NHL and their trajectory. So as a bridge to help continue the momentum and the gains in pt% and performance, a short-term cap commitment to a top6 player added to the roster will help to 1) improve the roster/top6, 2) contribute to win more points and ensure the Habs are in the playoff race for longer and therefore play more meaningful games, and to a lesser extent 3) raise the trade value of the players around him.

As an aside, I already made the argument that the 6th best forward of a winning team is often considerably more productive than a 32pt forward. The comment seems to have been deleted so I won't make the argument or present the stats again -- I'm sure you can understand.

*I don't even know who would be the first call-up for a skill forward role... 5'9" 174lbs Sean Farrell and his 0.5 AHL PPG?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Simple response format because the quote gore is getting too much @Lafleursguy

1. The roster as it is will not have a substantially better performance than last year (the Weak Roster argument)
That's fine but not the optimal course of action (ie ReHabs is not being impatient; we're just having hockey talk in July)

2. It would be better to improve the roster and enjoy more success and more meaningful games in the regular season (the Incremental Progress argument)
3. Success in the playoffs is generally predicated on experience in the playoffs; experience in the playoffs is predicated on success in the regular season (the No-Flip-Switch argument)
4. To be successful in the playoffs this budding team needs to experience regular season success (the Taste-of-the-Playoffs-is-Valuable argument)
5. Since the Habs have finished bottom5 for two years straight, by definition the top6, bottom6, and d-corps could all be improved (the Rebuilding-requires-Building argument)
6. The top6 is bad because: a) Dach is extremely injury prone and unproven as a secondary scorer, b) Roy is unproven and a long-shot bet, and c) there is no 7th option top6 player in the Habs depth chart in case of injury or underperformance.* (the Bad Top6 argument)

7. The availability of Patrick Laine at a relatively low cost is itself a worthwhile gambit to improve the top6 and is worth pursuing because it would give the Habs sorely needed scoring depth
8. Patrick Laine is not the only way to improve the top6: there is also Rutger McGroarty who is in a completely different situation and has a completely different player profile. There is also Necas, and Zegras, and who knows who else could be available. Some would say there is also Max Pacioretty but at this point there are other considerations and diminishing returns.

Improving the roster with a two-year commitment is almost perfectly in line with what Hughes outright said he wants to do. I believe that's what Hughes sought to do with Marchessault who would've been a more safe gamble than Patrick Laine.

Because there are interesting prospects coming into the picture, the Habs do not need to make long-term or "transformative" commitments until they know how these prospects will fare in the NHL and their trajectory. So as a bridge to help continue the momentum and the gains in pt% and performance, a short-term cap commitment to a top6 player added to the roster will help to 1) improve the roster/top6, 2) contribute to win more points and ensure the Habs are in the playoff race for longer and therefore play more meaningful games, and to a lesser extent 3) raise the trade value of the players around him.

As an aside, I already made the argument that the 6th best forward of a winning team is often considerably more productive than a 32pt forward. The comment seems to have been deleted so I won't make the argument or present the stats again -- I'm sure you can understand.

*I don't even know who would be the first call-up for a skill forward role... 5'9" 174lbs Sean Farrell and his 0.5 AHL PPG?

What do you project points wise for Roy, Dach and Newhook this year? Assuming they are healthy?

 

[ReHabs]

In fairness, I'm a huge fan of Laine's. Even I don't feel he'll ever reach the heights he was expected to reach. In saying that, I can't see us obtaining a player with his tools. For a reasonable price. If he turns it around and reaches 80% of his potential. It's worth the risk.

I like Laine because I like giant viking wingers who can score. It's a primordial thing. He looks cool as hell when he winds up to shoot. I hope the injury stuff is behind him.

 

[waitin425]

What do you project points wise for Roy, Dach and Newhook this year? Assuming they are healthy?

Huge range of point totals possible.

Dach - 55 to 70 points
Newhook - 50 to 60 points
Roy if playing top 6 - 40 to 55 points.

 

[ReHabs]

What do you project points wise for Roy, Dach and Newhook this year? Assuming they are healthy?

You assume much too much if you think Dach, Newhook, and Roy will all be healthy next year. Dach has played about 50% of all possible games iirc, that's terribly bad.

I don't know what Dach is -- I saw him for 4 periods out of a possible 246 last season. When he's not playing next to Suzuki is he a 40point player or a 60pt player? I do not know. I won't project.

I don't know what Roy is -- I was rooting for him last-offseason and season but he didn't light the AHL on fire (but did fine) and he didn't like the NHL on fire and I didn't see enough magic from him to convince me. A commentator here intoned there are off-ice issues with him and the sauce too, I think others can attest to have seen those comments. Is he a 30pt forward or a 50pt forward? Not sure.

Newhook is fine if he's healthy but I don't feel he has untapped upside. I expect a pace of 50ish points. Not stylistically but in terms of profile he reminds me of Chris Higgins somehow -- can fit in anywhere in the top9 and look okay, will never lead, isn't huge but is stocky and solid, isn't a hitter. Newhook is a solid skater though, IIRC Higgins was a bad skater.

---

Your outrage at the notion of acquiring McGroarty and Laine both, the lack of engagement in my arguments, and your insistence that our top6 is good tells me the discussion has hit an end.

 

[BaseballCoach]

IIRC Higgins was a bad skater.

False.

 

[MXD]

*Roy and Dach are uncertainties in terms of health.
*Talks about adding Laine.

Some people are born with the innate faculty to make absolutely no sense.

 

[sampollock]

I like Laine because I like giant viking wingers who can score. It's a primordial thing. He looks cool as hell when he winds up to shoot. I hope the injury stuff is behind him.

I agree.. wicked shot
KH will investigate I hope

 

[MXD]

Chris Higgins was an above-average-at-NHL-level skater. At least when with us (he did logically lose a step at some point)

 

[Rapala]

Hutson is on the 2nd pairing solid already, stop it with Hutson in the AHL, he will never play a game there unless he returns from an injury. They need to play him to see if they have to sign Matheson or not, it's a lot more critical a decision that anything else in the Habs rebuild.

No he isn't he still has to beat out both Xhekaj and Struble for that spot. Then he'll have to beat out Matheson for PP1.
Laval or sheltered third line minutes with PP2 is my guess. There is a heirarchy that will be respected unless there is a trade.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Huge range of point totals possible.

Dach - 55 to 70 points
Newhook - 50 to 60 points
Roy if playing top 6 - 40 to 55 points.

Not bad for a second line.

I think you can count on 50 for Dach and Newhook and 40 for Roy. You and I are on the same page.

70 points for Dach would definitely be high end. I don't think he gets there but it's not crazy to think he could do it. I think he's 50-60.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You assume much too much if you think Dach, Newhook, and Roy will all be healthy next year. Dach has played about 50% of all possible games iirc, that's terribly bad.

That's almost the exact percentage of games Laine has played in over the last four seasons. Last year Laine played in 18 games.

I don't know what Dach is -- I saw him for 4 periods out of a possible 246 last season. When he's not playing next to Suzuki is he a 40point player or a 60pt player? I do not know. I won't project.

I don't know what Roy is -- I was rooting for him last-offseason and season but he didn't light the AHL on fire (but did fine) and he didn't like the NHL on fire and I didn't see enough magic from him to convince me. A commentator here intoned there are off-ice issues with him and the sauce too, I think others can attest to have seen those comments. Is he a 30pt forward or a 50pt forward? Not sure.

Newhook is fine if he's healthy but I don't feel he has untapped upside. I expect a pace of 50ish points. Not stylistically but in terms of profile he reminds me of Chris Higgins somehow -- can fit in anywhere in the top9 and look okay, will never lead, isn't huge but is stocky and solid, isn't a hitter. Newhook is a solid skater though, IIRC Higgins was a bad skater.

---

Your outrage at the notion of acquiring McGroarty and Laine both, the lack of engagement in my arguments, and your insistence that our top6 is good tells me the discussion has hit an end.

You've said that it's an awful top six. Back it up.

What do you think they get if healthy?

Again, this isn't a trick question or a gotcha. If you want to have a debate, be honest about it. What do you think these guys project at?

Stop evading the questions with 'Gosh I really don't know'. If you don't know, then don't sit there and tell us it's a terrible top six.

 

[SOLR]

No he isn't he still has to beat out both Xhekaj and Struble for that spot. Then he'll have to beat out Matheson for PP1.
Laval or sheltered third line minutes with PP2 is my guess. There is a heirarchy that will be respected unless there is a trade.

He already jumped Xhekaj and Struble in 2 games. Wake up, you don't block a prime prospect with expendable pieces.

What rank was our PP last year? Yeah ok.

 

[Gravity]

Mailloux and Hutson should make the team

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No he isn't he still has to beat out both Xhekaj and Struble for that spot. Then he'll have to beat out Matheson for PP1.
Laval or sheltered third line minutes with PP2 is my guess. There is a heirarchy that will be respected unless there is a trade.

That ship sailed the moment he stepped on the ice in his first game. He's 2nd pairing.

 

[Rapala]

He already jumped Xhekaj and Struble in 2 games. Wake up, you don't block a prime prospect with expendable pieces.

What rank was our PP last year? Yeah ok.

Two meaningless games at the end of the season do not mean a damn thing.
There is a camp and he'll have to earn it just like anybody else.
That is how it works that is how it's always worked.

 

[Habs10Habs]

Mailloux and Hutson should make the team

I'm looking forward to seeing him in camp. I still think he starts the year in Laval. But it's not going to be an easy decision for management IMO.

 

[le_sean]

Bro, I can only read so many posts about when Demigod is coming lol

The cost to get him would be no where near the 2nd overall talent he was once touted to be. So I don't think you'll see too many posters here claiming that's what we'd be getting.

Well they all point to his points per game as if that’s to be expected playing 2nd line minutes here and likely not even on PP1 because he’s not taking Cole’s spot. Doesn’t seem to concern them that he hasn’t played over 60 games in like 5-6 seasons or that he’s shit defensively. All for $9m per year.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Two meaningless games at the end of the season do not mean a damn thing.
There is a camp and he'll have to earn it just like anybody else.
That is how it works that is how it's always worked.

That's how it used to work. And it's why our old regime was so terrible at developing prospects.

 

[Habs 4 Life]

I'm looking forward to seeing him in camp. I still think he starts the year in Laval. But it's not going to be an easy decision for management IMO.

I might get in trouble here but personally I think Mailloux is more ready than Hutson in terms of overall and physical play