HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #88: 2024-25 Season

[Mrb1p]

Bruins rebuilt 2005-2008 and were contending after. Penguins 2001-2006 and were contending after. Tampa was a bit unique but they weren’t ever rebuilding for longer then three years during the late 2000’s/early 2010’s. Chicago rebuilt 2005-2008. The only team I can think of that had any real success in the salary cap era, and somebody can correct me if I’m wrong, that spent more then 5 years rebuilding were the Oilers. And they got lucky winning a lottery with McDavid. Most teams that spend longer then that 3-5 year risk developing a losing culture like the Sabres. If you use the same logic our fans use that the 21/22 season doesn’t count as part of the rebuild on the teams I mentioned, you can argue some of those teams rebuild even faster then I mentioned.

There's the Avs, that's about it.

Maybe one could include the Canes but it's very murky then.

The problem is HuGonites starts the rebuild on a very firm date that makes no real sense and start every other rebuild on arbitrary dates that don't fit their own criteria. Why should HuGo get the benefit of their "rebuild" announcement and not other teams?

A team like the Sabres have been losing for 16 years but in that span, they've had 4 GMs.

Their situation isn't that different than us, going back to 1997 and it's not that different than us since 2014 /Carey Price induced contending years. It's very tough to navigate all this, just like the Mcdavid acquisition. We got a top 5 of all time goaltender with a 5th overall, the Sabres got Eichel, a very good player, who quit on them (for good or bad, not debating this.)

 

[Andy]

There's the Avs, that's about it.

Maybe one could include the Canes but it's very murky then.

The problem is HuGonites starts the rebuild on a very firm date that makes no real sense and start every other rebuild on arbitrary dates that don't fit their own criteria. Why should HuGo get the benefit of their "rebuild" announcement and not other teams?

A team like the Sabres have been losing for 16 years but in that span, they've had 4 GMs.

Their situation isn't that different than us, going back to 1997 and it's not that different than us since 2014 /Carey Price induced contending years. It's very tough to navigate all this, just like the Mcdavid acquisition. We got a top 5 of all time goaltender with a 5th overall, the Sabres got Eichel, a very good player, who quit on them (for good or bad, not debating this.)

The problem is that HuGo inherited a barren offensive pipeline and an overall prospect pool with no elite talent, along with almost 40 million dollars tied to bottom 6 players and bottom pairing dmen.

The habs under 25 offensive depth was literally Suzuki, Caufield, Roy.

Sure the D pipeline was deep, but there was no elite talent and Dman notoriously have long development curves. At the time HuGo took over none of their notable D prospects played any nhl games

When you look at the 3 drafts they’ve participated in, there aren’t any players drafted who have been massive game changers for their clubs.

The reality is that you need good players to improve. The best way to get these are in the draft. It’s entirely unrealistic to expect the rebuild to take off in 3 drafts when 1. There hasn’t been any draftee in those three years that has burned the league 2. Your club had no elite talent in the pipeline with very little depth.

This rebuild was always going to be a slog because the team was missing key pieces everywhere

 

[Mrb1p]

The problem is that HuGo inherited a barren offensive pipeline and an overall prospect pool with no elite talent, along with almost 40 million dollars tied to bottom 6 players and bottom pairing dmen.

The habs under 25 offensive depth was literally Suzuki, Caufield, Roy.

Sure the D pipeline was deep, but there was no elite talent and Dman notoriously have long development curves. At the time HuGo took over none of their notable D prospects played any nhl games

When you look at the 3 drafts they’ve participated in, there aren’t any players drafted who have been massive game changers for their clubs.

The reality is that you need good players to improve. The best way to get these are in the draft. It’s entirely unrealistic to expect the rebuild to take off in 3 drafts when 1. There hasn’t been any draftee in those three years that has burned the league 2. Your club had no elite talent in the pipeline with very little depth.

This rebuild was always going to be a slog because the team was missing key pieces everywhere

Guhle is literally a top pair D and was drafted two years prior to their arrival.

They got two core pieces, including, IMO, the two best ones in Suzuki and Guhle plus two top 6 wingers in Roy and Cole. You can't just ignore 60% of the rebuild because of an arbitrary date.

 

[Andy]

Guhle is literally a top pair D and was drafted two years prior to their arrival.

They got two core pieces, including, IMO, the two best ones in Suzuki and Guhle plus two top 6 wingers in Roy and Cole. You can't just ignore 60% of the rebuild because of an arbitrary date.

Guhle, Suzuki, Caufield, Roy is not enough enough to go anywhere. Their talent is good enough to make up for the holes in the rest of the lineup.

Like I said, no elite talent. Roy is still in the ahl.

You’re just reinforcing my point about how much work needed and still needs to be done.

 

[StCaufield]

No he's not and no evidence ever showed he was a bargain as a 2-3. He always was a 3rd pairing D.

PP minutes are what boosts his minutes, he plays nearly 4 minutes on the PP.


3.5 for one year isnt bad. Just a bit of a puzzle to fit him on the cap.

Don’t forget it’s your opinion not a fact. Matheson a 3rd pairing is absurd. Second I can see. I think every gm in the league would laugh if someone said he’s a third pair d man or border 7th. He could fetch a first no problem

 

[Mrb1p]

Guhle, Suzuki, Caufield, Roy is not enough enough to go anywhere. Their talent is good enough to make up for the holes in the rest of the lineup.

Like I said, no elite talent. Roy is still in the ahl.

You’re just reinforcing my point about how much work needed and still needs to be done.

Suzuki is a top 15 C in the NHL at worst. Give it up with the no elite piece lol. That's so 2021.

Its not about the rebuild being done, it's about the stepping stones being there much earlier than the HuGo dates. You can't just ignore 3 of your 6 best players in a rebuild, that's crazy.

Its like if the Pens said they started their rebuild the day they drafted Staal in 06 with the hiring of Shero. It makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Andy]

Suzuki is a top 15 C in the NHL at worst. Give it up with the no elite piece lol. That's so 2021.

Its not about the rebuild being done, it's about the stepping stones being there much earlier than the HuGo dates. You can't just ignore 3 of your 6 best players in a rebuild, that's crazy.

Its like if the Pens said they started their rebuild the day they drafted Staal in 06 with the hiring of Shero. It makes absolutely no sense.

I’m not IGNORING the 3 best player. I’m saying they aren’t good enough to make up for the fact that the rest of the team has little talent.

 

[Mrb1p]

Don’t forget it’s your opinion not a fact. Matheson a 3rd pairing is absurd. Second I can see. I think every gm in the league would laugh if someone said he’s a third pair d man or border 7th. He could fetch a first no problem

He was a third pair D for seven years prior to coming here. He's playing 2nd pair duties right now and he is still not adequate, not even close. His defensive gaffes wouldn't just disappear if he had 4 minutes less of standing around at the blue line on the PP.

I’m not IGNORING the 3 best player. I’m saying they aren’t good enough to make up for the fact that the rest of the team has little talent.

You'll have to develop that argument because I have no idea why you're making it in response to me saying the rebuild started before HuGos arrival.

 

[Habs Icing]

Don't say that around here, folks are gonna come after you and tell you you're a dinosaur.

Well, with a unicorn and a power donkey already in the system maybe a dinosaur is what we need.

 

[junyab]

He was a third pair D for seven years prior to coming here. He's playing 2nd pair duties right now and he is still not adequate, not even close. His defensive gaffes wouldn't just disappear if he had 4 minutes less of standing around at the blue line on the PP.


You'll have to develop that argument because I have no idea why you're making it in response to me saying the rebuild started before HuGos arrival.

Just wanted to fact check that third pair comment. So according to TOI/GP he was actually almost always Top 4.

Pittsburgh
2021-22 - Top 4
2020-21 - Top 4

Florida
2019-20 - Top 6
2018-19 - Top 4
2017-18 - Top 4
2016-17 - Top 4
2015-16 - Played only 3 games

 

[Mrb1p]

Just wanted to fact check that third pair comment. So according to TOI/GP he was actually almost always Top 4.

Pittsburgh
2021-22 - Top 4
2020-21 - Top 4

Florida
2019-20 - Top 6
2018-19 - Top 4
2017-18 - Top 4
2016-17 - Top 4
2015-16 - Played only 3 games

That's true in TOI. I don't think anyone would say he was a 2md pair D in 16 17.

 

[OnTheRun]

Guhle is literally a top pair D and was drafted two years prior to their arrival.

They got two core pieces, including, IMO, the two best ones in Suzuki and Guhle plus two top 6 wingers in Roy and Cole. You can't just ignore 60% of the rebuild because of an arbitrary date.

Because a rebuild start when you decide to start it.

HuGo could have decided to take the pick from the Bergevin's engineered season (21-22) and to signs a bunch of mediocre UFAs during the offseason then called it a day... Which would have been the same damn thing Bergevin did when he took over in 2012.

The team being bad before the rebuild started and some players drafted before that point ending up being useful pieces for the rebuild, doesn't allow you to retroactively adds years into the rebuild.

 

[Mrb1p]

Because a rebuild start when you decide to start it.

HuGo could have decided to take the pick from the Bergevin's engineered season (21-22) and to signs a bunch of mediocre UFAs during the offseason then called it a day... Which would have been the same damn thing Bergevin did when he took over in 2012.

The team being bad before the rebuild started and some players drafted before that point ending up being useful pieces for the rebuild, doesn't allow you to retroactively adds years into the rebuild.

Yes it does, you're right, but that's just a very vague human concept.

Accumulation can happen in a context of "competition", as it did under Bergevin.

If you end up drafting 1st twice in two years while trying your hardest to win, you're still accumulating. It's stupid to ignore that for PR reasons.

Also, look at the numbers of picks Bergevin had from 17 to 21. That's not a team looking to compete.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Hey Kent if Sakic calls, hang up the phone please. Can't go getting fleeced 3/3

It’s actually impossible for Hughes to lose a trade, because even when he trades for bad players it was always a calculated gamble that maybe the bad players would be good

 

[OnTheRun]

Yes it does, you're right, but that's just a very vague human concept.

Accumulation can happen in a context of "competition", as it did under Bergevin.

If you end up drafting 1st twice in two years while trying your hardest to win, you're still accumulating. It's stupid to ignore that for PR reasons.

Also, look at the numbers of picks Bergevin had from 17 to 21. That's not a team looking to compete.

That's kind of vague tho, because you are always "accumulating" whether you are competing or not. It's how you manage your assets that change when you're rebuilding versus competing. And it's even more murkier when dealing with Bergevin tenure, the man who spent a freaking decade riding the fence without picking a lane and ironically traded away his first 1st round pick (for Dvo of all people) in a year his team was fated to finish dead last in the league.

All the yield from the 2017 and 2018 drafts are gone now, and the only roster player we still carry from the 2018 roster is Gally (and that ain't a good thing)

 

[Benstheman]

I'm not totally against getting Zegras if it costs us a player like Newhook and a 2nd. But i don't trade 1sts or prospects that have a spot on the team on the long term.

 

[junyab]

I wonder what Zegras' issues are now? Have defenders just figured him out or is he just in the doghouse in Anaheim?

 

[HabsCode]

To think Zegras was on the NHL EA cover 2 season ago and seen as the next face of the league, to now being talked about as a mid value asset in thread talk is pretty crazy.

 

[Deebs]

To think Zegras was on the NHL EA cover 2 season ago and seen as the next face of the league, to now being talked about as a mid value asset in thread talk is pretty crazy.

He was on the cover because of dangles and his hair not because he was a good hockey player.

 

[junyab]

He was on the cover because of dangles and his hair not because he was a good hockey player.

I think you'd have a hard time finding many people who at the end of the 2021-22 season thought Zegras was not a good hockey player. And then continued to keep that opinion after the 2022-23 season.

 

[HabsCode]

He was on the cover because of dangles and his hair not because he was a good hockey player.

Michigan Zegras era he was hyped a lot and was playing really goodhockey, but yes his persona and highlights reel made people overrate him a little. But he was on a trajectory to became an elite player

 

[HuGort]

On Zegras it sure can be a red flag. I'm picking up though that Verbeek wants toughness and old time hockey, Zegras is not that. Maybe Verbeek undervalues him and remember I said cheap. I can certainly see Zegras benefiting from MSLs coaching approach.

For us, I am wondering if adding more skill could help. Our 2nd line is in tatters, our whole bottom 9 is actually doing badly.

So I'm just throwing Zegras out there as he may be a bargain right now. But absolutely he may not be the right fit for us at even 40 cents on the dollar.

How do you see Zegras I'm the future here? Centering Caufield and Dach? Suzuki with Slaf and Demidov.

 

[HabsCode]

How do you see Zegras I'm the future here? Centering Caufield and Dach? Suzuki with Slaf and Demidov.

Not the one you replied to, but I see it as he would take the role of Newhook. 3C slotting on the top 6 when needed.

 

[Andy]

You'll have to develop that argument because I have no idea why you're making it in response to me saying the rebuild started before HuGos arrival.

How did the rebuild start before their arrival? The habs played in the cup final the year prior. Bergy continued to try and add depth by bringing in Savard and Hoffman. They finished last that season, but they were in no way or form starting a rebuild at the point in time.

The rebuild with the current regime starts when HuGo took over and you need to look at the assets in place at that time.

In terms of talent under 25 on the offensive side, they essentially had Caufield, Suzuki, Roy. The first two are great, but they are not elite.

Sure, they had a deep D pipeline, headed by Guhle, but D take extremely long to develop. 5 of these d-men have barely played 100 nhl games.

Then you look at the vets left over. HuGo inherited like 40 million in cap tied to Hoffman, Armia, Anderson, Gallagher, Dvorak, Edmundson, Savard, Drouin. That's a heavy list of deadweight, so much so that we're still try to dump half of these players.

Then you look at the D, basically they inherited a Dcore with no nhl ready top pairing talent.

In terms of tradeable assets, all they really had was Toffoli, Lekhonen, Chiarot, and Petry (who no one really wanted).

It was completely brutal.

The non-nhl prospect pipeline was Guhle, Mailloux, Harris, Struble, Roy, Kapanen.

I'm sorry man, there is no universe in which you're turning your team around in less than 5 years when youre inherited assets are Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Mailloux, Roy, Struble, Roy, Kapanen. If these are the assets accumulated from a rebuild already in progress, then it's just plain f***ing awful.

This team needed so much work. So much so that they needed to trade for secondary scoring because they literally had nothing in the pipeline. The top6 offense after Slaf, Caufield, Suzuki is all acquired players.

 

[Positive Vibes]

LOL. Did you just NOW realize that?

no,but it was entertaining for a bit