HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #85 - Offseason Editon

[BaseballCoach]

i don't think it's a "foxhole" issue with KH. Allen is untradable, so he's off the table. Monty is 5 years younger, on a better contract and was very good last year and at the World's as well as being part of the team now. So Monty isn't going anywhere.

If KH could swap out Allen for DeSmith I'm sure he would but Allen isn't going anywhere until the 2025 TDL or if by miracle, the offseason in 2024, at the earliest.

DeSmith is just the odd man out.

If Allen is so bad he is untradeable, then why aren't people suggesting he be handled the way they wanted Drouin, Hoffman, Armia, Dadonov handled?

How does Allen's badness mean we should lose Primeau and DeSmith for nothing?

His value will only be determined if he clears waivers, any team could have traded for him for nothing from Pittsburgh if they wanted him as a backup goalie. With his low cap hit he would make an amazing 3 rd goalie in the AHL for a contender without an experienced backup or as injury protection. The return will probably be a goalie to play the year in Laval with Primeau or Dobes.

That's fine with me if he is not better than two of our other goalies. Save $650,000 on the cap if he is going to be in Laval anyway.

But if he is the best of the four, as he was last year and even more so the previous two, or even second best, then keep him REGARDLESS of what is done with Allen.

 

[BaseballCoach]

i don't think it's a "foxhole" issue with KH. Allen is untradable, so he's off the table. Monty is 5 years younger, on a better contract and was very good last year and at the World's as well as being part of the team now. So Monty isn't going anywhere.

If KH could swap out Allen for DeSmith I'm sure he would but Allen isn't going anywhere until the 2025 TDL or if by miracle, the offseason in 2024, at the earliest.

DeSmith is just the odd man out.

No, ALLEN is the one who should get the fewest or no NHL games if he can't be moved and if he is worse than the other two.

I'm assuming we are not tanking, because if we were we would get rid of deSmith, we would play Allen 30-50 games, trade Petry for nothing, slow down Reinbacher's development by sending him back to Switzerland, and continue to play defensively questionable wingers on their wrong side.

 

[Scriptor]

No, ALLEN is the one who should get the fewest or no NHL games if he can't be moved and if he is worse than the other two.

I'm assuming we are not tanking, because if we were we would get rid of deSmith, we would play Allen 30-50 games, trade Petry for nothing, slow down Reinbacher's development by sending him back to Switzerland, and continue to play defensively questionable wingers on their wrong side.

This does not amount to what you are suggesting it does at all, but nice try.

 

[Sterling Archer]

If Allen is so bad he is untradeable, then why aren't people suggesting he be handled the way they wanted Drouin, Hoffman, Armia, Dadonov handled?

How does Allen's badness mean we should lose Primeau and DeSmith for nothing?


That's fine with me if he is not better than two of our other goalies. Save $650,000 on the cap if he is going to be in Laval anyway.

But if he is the best of the four, as he was last year and even more so the previous two, or even second best, then keep him REGARDLESS of what is done with Allen.

I’m not saying Allen is so bad. I think all 3 are comparable tbh. Allen has two more years at $3.8M left. That’s why he’s untradable. Too much money, for too long.

 

[Tyson]

I’m not saying Allen is so bad. I think all 3 are comparable tbh. Allen has two more years at $3.8M left. That’s why he’s untradable. Too much money, for too long.

I think his veteran leadership and mentorship is why Hughes is keeping him around. Just as hunch

 

[Sterling Archer]

I think his veteran leadership and mentorship is why Hughes is keeping him around. Just as hunch

I’m sure that’s part of it and why he signed him to that extension. But let’s be honest, that contract is not movable. Allen isn’t a no. 1 goalie and that’s a lot of dough for a backup, especially for a non competitive team. No team is trading for that with Allen’s numbers.

 

[BLONG7]

I think his veteran leadership and mentorship is why Hughes is keeping him around. Just as hunch

He has said as much..................we need a couple of vets, who can keep the kids on the right road.
At least Allen can make a few stops, win the odd game. We have vets like Armia and Gally who are basically useless as it pertains to performance, but they can help keep an eye on the kids also.
We also have a few good vets, who can somewhat perform, like Monahan, Savard, Matheson....

 

[BaseballCoach]

I’m not saying Allen is so bad. I think all 3 are comparable tbh. Allen has two more years at $3.8M left. That’s why he’s untradable. Too much money, for too long.

Each of the past three seasons, deSMith had a better SVP than Allen by between .005 and .014. Average .910 vs .901. That's statististically significant.

All I'm saying is that if deSmith is one of 9our top 2 in camp, he should start in Montreal.

If Monty and Primeau on the other hand are the two best, then Allen and deSMith get waived, and no more than one of them is recalled, at most.

Hughes is running a professional club, he has to get the best players ice time or at least get them on the roster for MSL to make his choices.

I’m sure that’s part of it and why he signed him to that extension. But let’s be honest, that contract is not movable. Allen isn’t a no. 1 goalie and that’s a lot of dough for a backup, especially for a non competitive team. No team is trading for that with Allen’s numbers.

So Hughes overpaid?

He has said as much..................we need a couple of vets, who can keep the kids on the right road.
At least Allen can make a few stops, win the odd game. We have vets like Armia and Gally who are basically useless as it pertains to performance, but they can help keep an eye on the kids also.
We also have a few good vets, who can somewhat perform, like Monahan, Savard, Matheson....

LOL at "somewhat" for Matheson.

 

[Miller Time]

Each of the past three seasons, deSMith had a better SVP than Allen by between .005 and .014. Average .910 vs .901. That's statististically significant.

All I'm saying is that if deSmith is one of 9our top 2 in camp, he should start in Montreal.

If Monty and Primeau on the other hand are the two best, then Allen and deSMith get waived, and no more than one of them is recalled, at most.

Hughes is running a professional club, he has to get the best players ice time or at least get them on the roster for MSL to make his choices.

I don't think that's a fitting approach in our situation.

Like it or not, Habs are not a club that is prioritizing winning as the most important consideration this year. Lineup & roster decisions will invariably weigh things like locker room fit, buy in to coach direction, mentorship & leadership qualities et. heavier in a period of development & culture-setting more than they might at a stage where maximizing available talent to position the team for the best point total possible because playoff positioning is the priority.

If the gap btw Allen & DeSmith is massive, then yes, there's always a point where you can't justify keeping someone on the roster ahead of the much better option. But assuming Monty does take the 1A spot by his play in camp, I think it's highly unlikely DeSmith would do enough to unseat Allen as #2, even if he is playing better.

Ylonen/Heineman is another roster battle in a similar situation... Though this BC of waiver wire context. Id bet Heineman would have to be significantly better for Hughes/MSL to put him in the roster ahead of Ylonen... Both because we can't send Ylonen down without waivers & BC giving Ylonen a chance to play NHL games may well boost his trade value.

The similarity I'm drawing here is that roster decisions are rarely made purely on the "who is playing better" or "merit" basis... That matters & should always be a big factor, but there is so muchore context that needs to be considered in making the best overall decision for the team.

 

[Miller Time]

If Allen is so bad he is untradeable, then why aren't people suggesting he be handled the way they wanted Drouin, Hoffman, Armia, Dadonov handled?

Is this a serious question?

If you can't differentiate what qualities might seperate Allen from this group, you may want to go back and read up on the pretty detailed explanations provided as to why the Habs chose to extend him.

The team isn't playing video games or collecting panini stickers here, there is much more involved in player evaluation than the hockeydb stat line.

 

[Scriptor]

I think his veteran leadership and mentorship is why Hughes is keeping him around. Just as hunch

It's certainly one way to wrap your head around being stuck with a 33-yr-old and 34-yr-old G this year and next.

Imagine if he wasn't so on board with the rebuild and such a good mentor for the kids? I'd hate to see that situation unfold...

 

[HuGort]

I’m sure that’s part of it and why he signed him to that extension. But let’s be honest, that contract is not movable. Allen isn’t a no. 1 goalie and that’s a lot of dough for a backup, especially for a non competitive team. No team is trading for that with Allen’s numbers.

Around clubhouse they say Allen good working with young goalies. Notice the uptick in Monty, and Billington in St Louis not same since Allen left. We over paid to keep Allen but get back on Monty and young goalies coming in our system.

Allen will likely morph into goalie coach when playing Career is done.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I don't think that's a fitting approach in our situation.

Like it or not, Habs are not a club that is prioritizing winning as the most important consideration this year. Lineup & roster decisions will invariably weigh things like locker room fit, buy in to coach direction, mentorship & leadership qualities et. heavier in a period of development & culture-setting more than they might at a stage where maximizing available talent to position the team for the best point total possible because playoff positioning is the priority.

If the gap btw Allen & DeSmith is massive, then yes, there's always a point where you can't justify keeping someone on the roster ahead of the much better option. But assuming Monty does take the 1A spot by his play in camp, I think it's highly unlikely DeSmith would do enough to unseat Allen as #2, even if he is playing better.

Ylonen/Heineman is another roster battle in a similar situation... Though this BC of waiver wire context. Id bet Heineman would have to be significantly better for Hughes/MSL to put him in the roster ahead of Ylonen... Both because we can't send Ylonen down without waivers & BC giving Ylonen a chance to play NHL games may well boost his trade value.

The similarity I'm drawing here is that roster decisions are rarely made purely on the "who is playing better" or "merit" basis... That matters & should always be a big factor, but there is so muchore context that needs to be considered in making the best overall decision for the team.

Does the same apply if we find a defenceman who can play in the top 3.... oh never mind.

By the way, boosting trade value is sometimes a useful thing so I'm not totally pooh-poohing it. However, it could also apply to deSmith, who could boost his trade value by beinbg a great backup/1B if we give him a chance to actually play some games.

Also having an NHL goalie on the team who is harder to outshine than Allen could pay divikdends in a less expensive Montembeault extension salary demand.

So if Allen is a good guy to just have around, I'd be fine with paper-waiving deSmith or Allen (whoever is weaker), then when they are not claimed, playing both plus Monty on the main roster, maybe 25-25-50%. It's not critical to have 3 extra skaters, we can have 2 plus a goalie. On the other hand, if Primeau grabs a spot, which he well might, I'm ok with trading deSmith for a younger AHL goaltender at minimum salary and keeping Allen as #3 / goalie mentor. Given that we are rebuilding, Primeau absolutely has to have a fair shot to impress after two good seasons in Laval.

Is this a serious question?

If you can't differentiate what qualities might seperate Allen from this group, you may want to go back and read up on the pretty detailed explanations provided as to why the Habs chose to extend him.

The team isn't playing video games or collecting panini stickers here, there is much more involved in player evaluation than the hockeydb stat line.

Sure, but we overpaid by at least $1M and over-termed by at least one year.

 

[Miller Time]

Does the same apply if we find a defenceman who can play in the top 3.... oh never mind.

What's the point of this? Really undermines otherwise interesting discussion about Allen.

But since you poked... Again here id offer that taking a step back to ground your take in the specific context of each situation would help both with understanding & arriving at a more solid take.

Petry's situation has nothing to do with Allen's, conflating the two, even in jest, suggests some very poor assessments.

By the way, boosting trade value is sometimes a useful thing so I'm not totally pooh-poohing it. However, it could also apply to deSmith, who could boost his trade value by beinbg a great backup/1B if we give him a chance to actually play some games.

Also having an NHL goalie on the team who is harder to outshine than Allen could pay divikdends in a less expensive Montembeault extension salary demand.

- I don't think anything either DeSmith or Allen do will impact Monty's extension... If he shows he's our longer term fit at #1, Habs will pay him as such in a deal that meets the needs of both the team & player.

- DeSmith & Allen have vastly different contract situations... The trade value of either is going to be more heavily impacted by that reality than what they do in back up role over 2-3months of the season imo (assuming, as I am, that neither are poised to play at a clear cut #1 level).

So if Allen is a good guy to just have around, I'd be fine with paper-waiving deSmith or Allen (whoever is weaker), then when they are not claimed, playing both plus Monty on the main roster, maybe 25-25-50%. It's not critical to have 3 extra skaters, we can have 2 plus a goalie. On the other hand, if Primeau grabs a spot, which he well might, I'm ok with trading deSmith for a younger AHL goaltender at minimum salary and keeping Allen as #3 / goalie mentor. Given that we are rebuilding, Primeau absolutely has to have a fair shot to impress after two good seasons in Laval.


Sure, but we overpaid by at least $1M and over-termed by at least one year.

Hughes may well do that... Though I suspect it's more likely that a trade offer arises or DeSmith gets picked up on waivers. Clearing his 1.8M alone is about as valuable as whatever late pick some team may throw our way (that space being leveraged later on in other in-season trade negotiations).

And yes, fully agree that the Allen contract is not great. It's the decision by the Habs group I am least fond of thus far, though I do get the rationale of the signing & do think Allen has played a positive role in Monty's progression

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Does the same apply if we find a defenceman who can play in the top 3.... oh never mind.

By the way, boosting trade value is sometimes a useful thing so I'm not totally pooh-poohing it. However, it could also apply to deSmith, who could boost his trade value by beinbg a great backup/1B if we give him a chance to actually play some games.

Also having an NHL goalie on the team who is harder to outshine than Allen could pay divikdends in a less expensive Montembeault extension salary demand.

So if Allen is a good guy to just have around, I'd be fine with paper-waiving deSmith or Allen (whoever is weaker), then when they are not claimed, playing both plus Monty on the main roster, maybe 25-25-50%. It's not critical to have 3 extra skaters, we can have 2 plus a goalie. On the other hand, if Primeau grabs a spot, which he well might, I'm ok with trading deSmith for a younger AHL goaltender at minimum salary and keeping Allen as #3 / goalie mentor. Given that we are rebuilding, Primeau absolutely has to have a fair shot to impress after two good seasons in Laval.


Sure, but we overpaid by at least $1M and over-termed by at least one year.

Allen's pay and term are fine. Habs have a cheap goaltending tandem. They are not going to find a goaltender better than Monty in the next 2 years. Allen will be gone or paid much less LONG before Habs have a #1 unless Monty develops into one.

 

[BaseballCoach]

- I don't think anything either DeSmith or Allen do will impact Monty's extension... If he shows he's our longer term fit at #1, Habs will pay him as such in a deal that meets the needs of both the team & player.

That's my point though. It was not that hard to look better than Allen and have people here suggestnig $5M extensions for Monty.

But if deSmith shows he is as good as Montembeault, I am sure we can extend Monty at well under $3M, maybe even $2M per year.

- DeSmith & Allen have vastly different contract situations... The trade value of either is going to be more heavily impacted by that reality than what they do in back up role over 2-3months of the season imo (assuming, as I am, that neither are poised to play at a clear cut #1 level).

DeSmith is indeed more likely to get picked up by a team that needs a goalie for the rest of the year. He is cheaper, younger and less injury-prone. He just has to keep his SVP over .900 to have value, especially if we retain (there is no one else with an expiring contract save Monahan to trade, and he won't need retention if playing well enough to be sought after).

Hughes may well do that... Though I suspect it's more likely that a trade offer arises or DeSmith gets picked up on waivers. Clearing his 1.8M alone is about as valuable as whatever late pick some team may throw our way (that space being leveraged later on in other in-season trade negotiations).

It's not $1.8M if he is in Lavak to start with or if we stay with 23 players after he is moved. It's more like $650k-$1.000M

And yes, fully agree that the Allen contract is not great. It's the decision by the Habs group I am least fond of thus far, though I do get the rationale of the signing & do think Allen has played a positive role in Monty's progression

What he did for Monty was on his last contract. The extension starts now. One year without raise would have been compatible with the stated goals.

Allen's pay and term are fine.

Not if he is not good enough to be #1B.

 

[NewDef]

Seeing Pinto is still unsigned and the Sens have no cap space, what's your feeling about a trade for him? Say Harris/Farrel +pick(s) vs Pinto + small cap dump?

I don't see a hostile offer being an option. Hugues is trying to maintain good relations which is absolutely the right approach. Nobody likes as**oles that try to screw you.

Dvorak will probably get back after the season 1st game. Wideman is slated as injured and with a few creative moves of waiver exempt players it could be made.

If only we could move a goalie. I would've kept DeSmith and be done with Allen, hopefully he'll be healthy this season but DeSmith has better stats for a lower salary. Just for this year, it would've been worth it.

Your thoughts good sirs?

 

[danyhabsfan]

not realistic
inter division trading and not giving the sens much

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Ottawa needs Pinto. They aren't deep at the forward position and if they ever make the decision on the 2018 WJC fiasco Batherson could be gone for sometime.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

f*** sakes.

Why does any thought that crosses someone's mind feels the need to make a thread for it when there's a proposal thread already.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

That's my point though. It was not that hard to look better than Allen and have people here suggestnig $5M extensions for Monty.

But if deSmith shows he is as good as Montembeault, I am sure we can extend Monty at well under $3M, maybe even $2M per year.



DeSmith is indeed more likely to get picked up by a team that needs a goalie for the rest of the year. He is cheaper, younger and less injury-prone. He just has to keep his SVP over .900 to have value, especially if we retain (there is no one else with an expiring contract save Monahan to trade, and he won't need retention if playing well enough to be sought after).



It's not $1.8M if he is in Lavak to start with or if we stay with 23 players after he is moved. It's more like $650k-$1.000M



What he did for Monty was on his last contract. The extension starts now. One year without raise would have been compatible with the stated goals.


Not if he is not good enough to be #1B.

Whether Allen is a starter or a backup is irrelevant this year since he and Monty make less than a #1 goalie. Now if Montemabault plays well enough to warrant a big raise next year it could be a problem. But it would only be for one season and they won't liklely need the cap space.

 

[StCaufield]

No. We’ve had many Shane Pintos and they never pan out

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

No. We’ve had many Shane Pintos and they never pan out

Pintos do have an explosive nature.

 

[NewDef]

f*** sakes.

Why does any thought that crosses someone's mind feels the need to make a thread for it when there's a proposal thread already.

Sorry dude, forgot about the other thread. First thread ever eh... i really was hoping not to get bashed in the first 4 comments. Lol

I would'nt propose such a trade if the sens were not pinched like that. I like Pinto who is showing a lot more than Ylonen. He seems like a target of opportunity with a profile to play in the top 6 when the team is ready to compete.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Pinto is one of their babies, no way they let him go just because they have no room...they'll make some room.