HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #84: Off-Season edition

[The Great Weal]

If Hughes genuinely believes this team is at least 2-3 years away, then you'd have to think Anderson and Matheson need to get traded soon. Anderson is turning 29 in 2 months, in 2-3 years he will be 31. Guys depending on athleticism are prone to breaking down a lot sooner even though I think he will be fine throughout his contract. Same thing with Matheson and he will also need a new contract by that time too.

Both are great players and we shouldn't trade them for anything, but that's the same age we traded Toffoli since he didn't fit our timeline. Toffoli went for a late first and a B prospect and is producing at a 74 point pace right now with the Flames. I'm sure the main idea was to just get a 1st and a prospect to prevent us from being a middling time and instead accumulate better picks, so you have to wonder why shouldn't the same apply to Anderson and Matheson. I'd even argue that Toffoli would have aged better since he depends on hockey IQ instead of athleticism.

I would say Dvorak too but I doubt he has much value. Maybe if we take on a contract he can get a 1st.

 

[BaseballCoach]

If Hughes genuinely believes this team is at least 2-3 years away, then you'd have to think Anderson and Matheson need to get traded soon. Anderson is turning 29 in 2 months, in 2-3 years he will be 31. Guys depending on athleticism are prone to breaking down a lot sooner even though I think he will be fine throughout his contract. Same thing with Matheson and he will also need a new contract by that time too.

Both are great players and we shouldn't trade them for anything, but that's the same age we traded Toffoli since he didn't fit our timeline. Toffoli went for a late first and a B prospect and is producing at a 74 point pace right now with the Flames. I'm sure the main idea was to just get a 1st and a prospect to prevent us from being a middling time and instead accumulate better picks, so you have to wonder why shouldn't the same apply to Anderson and Matheson. I'd even argue that Toffoli would have aged better since he depends on hockey IQ instead of athleticism.

I would say Dvorak too but I doubt he has much value. Maybe if we take on a contract he can get a 1st.

Toffoli is a forward whose contract is up next year.

Matheson is two years younger and as a D they usually stay at their peak longer. He is signed until June 2026, loves Montreal and would likely extend if we made a fair offer.

Also Toffoli did not fit the fast-skating DNA Hugo want to implement, while Matheson fits perfectly.

 

[The Great Weal]

Toffoli is a forward whose contract is up next year.

Matheson is two years younger and as a D they usually stay at their peak longer. He is signed until June 2026, loves Montreal and would likely extend if we made a fair offer.

Also Toffoli did not fit the fast-skating DNA Hugo want to implement, while Matheson fits perfectly.

You are talking about the current state, I am talking about the state of when we traded Toffoli.

Toffoli was traded when he was 29, Matheson just turned 29, it's the same age. Toffoli got traded to a team for 3 potential playoff runs, that would be the same for Matheson if we were to trade him this year. Toffoli loved Montreal too, he even signed cheaper to be with us.

How fast and good will Matheson be in 3 years which is when Hugo is expecting us to be more competitive? At least Toffoli's IQ will makeup for his skating flaws.

 

[Rapala]

Toffoli is a forward whose contract is up next year.

Matheson is two years younger and as a D they usually stay at their peak longer. He is signed until June 2026, loves Montreal and would likely extend if we made a fair offer.

Also Toffoli did not fit the fast-skating DNA Hugo want to implement, while Matheson fits perfectly.

One can skate the other can't that also plays a huge factor in longevity.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

You are talking about the current state, I am talking about the state of when we traded Toffoli.

Toffoli was traded when he was 29, Matheson just turned 29, it's the same age. Toffoli got traded to a team for 3 potential playoff runs, that would be the same for Matheson if we were to trade him this year. Toffoli loved Montreal too, he even signed cheaper to be with us.

How fast and good will Matheson be in 3 years which is when Hugo is expecting us to be more competitive? At least Toffoli's IQ will makeup for his skating flaws.

IQ does not make up for skating flaws. If a player really slows down he is done like Cheechoo. And Toffoli wanted to go to a playoff team.

 

[ML16]

If Hughes genuinely believes this team is at least 2-3 years away, then you'd have to think Anderson and Matheson need to get traded soon. Anderson is turning 29 in 2 months, in 2-3 years he will be 31. Guys depending on athleticism are prone to breaking down a lot sooner even though I think he will be fine throughout his contract. Same thing with Matheson and he will also need a new contract by that time too.

Both are great players and we shouldn't trade them for anything, but that's the same age we traded Toffoli since he didn't fit our timeline. Toffoli went for a late first and a B prospect and is producing at a 74 point pace right now with the Flames. I'm sure the main idea was to just get a 1st and a prospect to prevent us from being a middling time and instead accumulate better picks, so you have to wonder why shouldn't the same apply to Anderson and Matheson. I'd even argue that Toffoli would have aged better since he depends on hockey IQ instead of athleticism.

I would say Dvorak too but I doubt he has much value. Maybe if we take on a contract he can get a 1st.

Here’s the quote from Hugues’s recent interview with Lebrun:

« Listen, I think it’s going to be another two, three years … but again, we’re hopeful we have opportunities to trade for good, young players like a Kirby Dach, instead of using a draft pick for it. We’ll try to do that, and that’s kind of a way to expedite the timeline. But we won’t go sign a 28-year-old or 29-year-old to a long-term deal at this point in time to be that much better next season. »

We don’t even need to read between the lines; Hughes’ explicitly saying that the Habs’ draft capital is available for U25 talent to expedite the rebuild - and implicitly saying he’s not looking to add veterans, likely rather sell some of them.

People expecting a lengthy rebuild process should thus take note, Hughes’ modus operandi seems on the contrary to be using the assets acquired in the twilight of Bergevin’s tenure - especially the overflow of NHL-quality LHDs - to jumpstart the rebuilding effort in order for the team to become competitive as soon as the emerging core led by Suzuki, Caufield and Dach start hitting their prime.

Moreover, considering that Hughes sees « Dach-like » trades as opportunities to expedite his projected timeframe of 2-3 years, that also means that the Habs might intend to contend much sooner than anticipated… in which case it would likely be with Matheson, Savard and Anderson as veterans to help shelter what would turn out be several impactful ELC players (2023 top-7 pick, Farrell, Roy, Beck, Hutson, Engstrom?, etc.) and a young thriving core in-between led by Dubois-Suzuki-Dach-Caufield up front, Guhle-Barron-Xhekaj in the back and a consistent Montembault between the pipes.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Here’s the quote from Hugues’s recent interview with Lebrun:

« Listen, I think it’s going to be another two, three years … but again, we’re hopeful we have opportunities to trade for good, young players like a Kirby Dach, instead of using a draft pick for it. We’ll try to do that, and that’s kind of a way to expedite the timeline. But we won’t go sign a 28-year-old or 29-year-old to a long-term deal at this point in time to be that much better next season. »

We don’t even need to read between the lines; Hughes’ explicitly saying that the Habs’ draft capital is available for U25 talent to expedite the rebuild - and implicitly saying he’s not looking to add veterans, likely rather sell some of them.

People expecting a lengthy rebuild process should thus take note, Hughes’ modus operandi seems on the contrary to be using the assets acquired in the twilight of Bergevin’s tenure - especially the overflow of NHL-quality LHDs - to jumpstart the rebuilding effort in order for the team to become competitive as soon as the emerging core led by Suzuki, Caufield and Dach start hitting their prime.

Moreover, considering that Hughes sees « Dach-like » trades as opportunities to expedite his projected timeframe of 2-3 years, that also means that the Habs might intend to contend much sooner than anticipated… in which case it would likely be with Matheson, Savard and Anderson as veterans to help shelter what would turn out be several impactful ELC players (2023 top-7 pick, Farrell, Roy, Beck, Hutson, Engstrom?, etc.) and a young thriving core in-between led by Dubois-Suzuki-Dach-Caufield up front, Guhle-Barron-Xhekaj in the back and a consistent Montembault between the pipes.

I'll be honest, it seems like you're really reading between the lines there. It sounds like you think Hughes will be more aggressive than he has been or has suggested he will be. He's going to look for opportunities, but he spends A LOT more time talking about internal growth than trading futures for young guys.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I never used the word bargain. I’m aware it’s laughable to think of $11 million as a “discount.” But Tavares did have at least one offer for an even more outrageous number available and others either the same or more so he did leave money on the table to play in Toronto. And I’d like to think if Dubois would do the same for us. That doesn’t meanI have an aggressive attitude towards PLD. If he wants to bend over a team as a UFA I have no problem with that. Players do it all the time. But let him do it to somebody else.

Again you use language that sounds judgmental to me.

I think it's simple. Hughes assigns a value to a UFA in his head. If the UFA is willing to sign for that number or less, deal !! If he wants more, we don't sign.

This process is not "bending a team over". It's teams and players that are both free to negotiate finding the appropriate fit.

 

[BaseballCoach]

IQ does not make up for skating flaws. If a player really slows down he is done like Cheechoo. And Toffoli wanted to go to a playoff team.

IQ can make up for slower skating, to some degree. Due to smarts, Corey Perry is still in the NHL rather than retired, but he is not making 28 year old Toffoli money, nor even 33 year old Perry money.

 

[Runner77]

I never used the word bargain. I’m aware it’s laughable to think of $11 million as a “discount.” But Tavares did have at least one offer for an even more outrageous number available and others either the same or more so he did leave money on the table to play in Toronto. And I’d like to think if Dubois would do the same for us. That doesn’t meanI have an aggressive attitude towards PLD. If he wants to bend over a team as a UFA I have no problem with that. Players do it all the time. But let him do it to somebody else.

PLD is not Bergeron and shouldn’t have to take a lesser salary cause he might be playing for his childhood team. I understand why Bergeron did it, he has massive career earnings and discounted one year at the tail end of his NHL career.

This is all conjecture upon conjecture as we’re not even sure he’ll end up here. But if he does, let him get paid what the market bears, if it comes down to it, which his agent is very likely to get. I’m much more concerned with what we might have to cough up if there is a pre-emptive move to acquire him.

 

[BaseballCoach]

The main point is adding assets around Suzuki's age or younger and keeping the age spread to around 8 years. It is 8 years from Dubois to the 2024 picks. Same range between Stamkos/Hedman and Point/Sergachev.

I was not on board with trying to trade for Meier but I am with Dubois. Dubois will be 25 next year and Meier will be 27. That spreads it out too much. So yeah, Dubois is on the cusp of how far I would stretch it.

Bergeron is 11 years older than Pastrnak. And of course, Chara was 8 years older than Bergeron, and McAvoy 1.5 years younger than Pastrnak !!

 

[ML16]

I'll be honest, it seems like you're really reading between the lines there. It sounds like you think Hughes will be more aggressive than he has been or has suggested he will be. He's going to look for opportunities, but he spends A LOT more time talking about internal growth than trading futures for young guys.

Well, considering Hughes says from the outset that he hopes the Habs start contending within the next 2-3 seasons - and further adds that Dach-like trades might even expedite that timetrame - it’s clearly indicative that he plans to use some of the Habs’ draft capital to slingshot his way upwards sooner than later, if only to optimize Suzuki, Caufield et al’s upcoming prime. (A timing which fits perfectly with the Habs’ expanding cap space once most expendables are off the books by trade or attrition within the same 2-3 years window.)

In other words, if the Habs’ plan is indeed to compete as soon as 2025-2026, there’s hardly any chance they’re actually thinking about drafting 5 times in the 1st round in-between 2023 and 2025 and will rather actively seek to trade 1 or 2 of these picks to target missing core pieces.

 

[Canadienna]

Well, considering Hughes says from the outset that he hopes the Habs start contending within the next 2-3 seasons

I don't think this is a fair representation of what he said.

I do agree with the premise that he will use draft capital to accelerate though.

 

[Sorinth]

If Hughes genuinely believes this team is at least 2-3 years away, then you'd have to think Anderson and Matheson need to get traded soon. Anderson is turning 29 in 2 months, in 2-3 years he will be 31. Guys depending on athleticism are prone to breaking down a lot sooner even though I think he will be fine throughout his contract. Same thing with Matheson and he will also need a new contract by that time too.

Both are great players and we shouldn't trade them for anything, but that's the same age we traded Toffoli since he didn't fit our timeline. Toffoli went for a late first and a B prospect and is producing at a 74 point pace right now with the Flames. I'm sure the main idea was to just get a 1st and a prospect to prevent us from being a middling time and instead accumulate better picks, so you have to wonder why shouldn't the same apply to Anderson and Matheson. I'd even argue that Toffoli would have aged better since he depends on hockey IQ instead of athleticism.

I would say Dvorak too but I doubt he has much value. Maybe if we take on a contract he can get a 1st.

I'm not sure you can draw those conclusions from Toffoli being traded. Going by the we are now 2-3 years away then when Toffoli was traded we would've been 4-5 years away if not more since both the Dach trade and the emergence of all the rookie D all sped up the rebuild.

There's also the fact that a late 1st is less valuable given we already have extra ones. We are sitting at 7 1st round picks in a 4 year span, adding an 8th one just doesn't have the same relative value as it did when we were sitting at one pick a year.

And finally there's also the stylistic component, Toffoli didn't fit with the style of team Hughes looks like he's trying to build which is big and fast.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Well, considering Hughes says from the outset that he hopes the Habs start contending within the next 2-3 seasons - and further adds that Dach-like trades might even expedite that timetrame - it’s clearly indicative that he plans to use some of the Habs’ draft capital to slingshot his way upwards sooner than later, if only to optimize Suzuki, Caufield et al’s upcoming prime. (A timing which fits perfectly with the Habs’ expanding cap space once most expendables are off the books by trade or attrition within the same 2-3 years window.)

In other words, if the Habs’ plan is indeed to compete as soon as 2025-2026, there’s hardly any chance they’re actually thinking about drafting 5 times in the 1st round in-between 2023 and 2025 and will rather actively seek to trade 1 or 2 of these picks to target missing core pieces.

Except that's not what he said. Rishaug was specifically asking about "a reasonable timeline to get firmly into that playoff discussion and be a regular on the playoff scene." Not contention, being a payoff team. Which is as different as being the Devils this season and being the Jets this season.

And prior to providing a 2-3 year timeline, he also qualified his comment by saying "its hard to pinpoint because its not just what [the Habs] do but what others do."

 

[Habs Halifax]

Bergeron is 11 years older than Pastrnak. And of course, Chara was 8 years older than Bergeron, and McAvoy 1.5 years younger than Pastrnak !!

Maybe after 3-5+ years when we are inside the top 10 consistently, we end up adding someone in their 30’s if the opportunity fits.

We’ll still be drafting after the 24 draft too. Our goalie might come from the 24-26 drafts. Takes time to develop them but you can go with the 3 year max goalie term like the Avs are doing. Not many goalies are top 10 for 5 years in a row. Best to be patient with the goalie search

8 year spread is strategy but it can spread. Just manage it carefully with long game in mind

 

[Benstheman]

If we are taking PLD out of the equation, who fits the description of a U25 player that could expedite the process?

One like Dach, that could be disponible?

 

[Zilo44]

If we are taking PLD out of the equation, who fits the description of a U25 player that could expedite the process?

One like Dach, that could be disponible?

Lafreniere

 

[BaseballCoach]

Lafreniere

What would the Rangers likely want?

What about Kakko or Byfield (LA)?

 

[Belial]

What would the Rangers likely want?

What about Kakko or Byfield (LA)?

Those teams are in contending mode, I doubt they're good trading partners.

 

[RationalExpectations]

What would the Rangers likely want?

What about Kakko or Byfield (LA)?

I don t think those players are on the market. Byfield is taking his time but he is getting better and better and LAK has been patient. Kakko and Laf are good third liners on cheap contracts for NYR who still have upside.

 

[DrBizz4r3]

If we are taking PLD out of the equation, who fits the description of a U25 player that could expedite the process?

One like Dach, that could be disponible?

Happy that someone asked because i lost some time looking dailyfaceoff this afternoon. I think to find an other situation like dach will be difficult… A team that will value a first because they want to garnish their prospect pool but will drop a 20ish player makes little sens (i still scratch my head to the Blackhawks, Hope they don’t win the lottery)…
I’m not sure the Blue Jackets are ready to pass on Cole Sillinger at 19-20, but if they draft a center and they don’t see an upgrade (poor management), they maybe want to recoup on it. I Hope we don’t try our hand on Alex Turcotte (too many concussions)…
Maybe Arizona are feverish on first and trade Victor Soderstrom (don’t see it)
Don’t see Red Wings trade there big man Soderblom even if he realize that he left the retool too soon (Bobrov will cream for this skill big man)
Maybe goalers stuck in their club

PLD fit the narrative

 

[DrBizz4r3]

Happy that someone asked because i lost some time looking dailyfaceoff this afternoon. I think to find an other situation like dach will be difficult… A team that will value a first because they want to garnish their prospect pool but will drop a 20ish player makes little sens (i still scratch my head to the Blackhawks, Hope they don’t win the lottery)…
I’m not sure the Blue Jackets are ready to pass on Cole Sillinger at 19-20, but if they draft a center and they don’t see an upgrade (poor management), they maybe want to recoup on it. I Hope we don’t try our hand on Alex Turcotte (too many concussions)…
Maybe Arizona are feverish on first and trade Victor Soderstrom (don’t see it)
Don’t see Red Wings trade there big man Soderblom even if he realize that he left the retool too soon (Bobrov will cream for this skill big man)
Maybe goalers stuck in their club

PLD fit the narrative

Carter Hart could fit the U25 mold and Flyers would want firsts (and is rumored to be available)

 

[Belial]

Carter Hart could fit the U25 mold and Flyers would want firsts (and is rumored to be available)

No way are they trading big assets for a goalie...

Motormouth has similar numbers... and he's slightly older...

I'd rather build an exciting team that can score and then fix the goaltending position rather than have another Carey situation.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Carter Hart could fit the U25 mold and Flyers would want firsts (and is rumored to be available)

I'm not sure Carter is consistent enough to be a #1. I would not overpay to gamble on him, but if PHI is willing to cut bait with him, we should listen and see if a reasonable offer could work.