HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #84: Off-Season edition

[Guy Larose]

Yes. When they know what they have with the assets they are accumulating. Or they decide a prospect is not going to be a top 6 forward or top 4 d and other teams are willing to offer top 4, top 6 value for them.

That's up to them to evaluate

 

[Scriptor]

They are pretty sharp not gonna turn on them lol... your price is extremely heavy though . I do believe they will go after him this year but personally I would wait and see if he really wants to come. Btw what happens if they draft a top center like Smith , do they still go after him?

FLA 1st + Beck + Edmundson stings a bit, I'll admit, but it's still a mere flesh wound.



If we draft a top C like Smith (assuming Smith can become a top C in the NHL), I'd still trade for Dubois.

Talent is talent and you never have enough of that. At some point, if you become overstocked with talent, things will shake out by themselves as you move more expensive, established players, close to exiting their prime years, to teams with closing windows for futures that can keep your own Cup window open longer.

It's a wheel and, if properly managed, a good thing.

IMO, Dubois is a power forward that can play C or W as efficiently as the other.

I think you never have enough top-6 Cs, personally. It adds insurance in case of injuries and it's much easier for a C to play wing with impact than a winger to do as much as a pivot.

We've seen how depth at C can be fragile with all the injuries this year.

 

[Scriptor]

Dominic Moore was our 3C in the 2010 Cup run, not 4C.

Pezzetta at the moment is a borderline 12th-14th F in my view. RHP is better, but Pezz brings sandpaper that may earn him a roster spot until the day someone else can paly that role just slightly better.

Kostopoulos and Metropolit were replacement level players, not as good at their job as Maroon has been.

To each his own. Don't see the fixation with Pezzetta all of a sudden, but, I agree that, at this time, he's fine for the position. Apparently, he's liked by his team mates who get cheered by seeing him get pummelled when he fights.

All good.

I'd prefer a Corey Perry type to Pezzetta, but those players can be targeted and added at the last minute.

Again, to each his own.

 

[Scriptor]

Yes. When they know what they have with the assets they are accumulating. Or they decide a prospect is not going to be a top 6 forward or top 4 d and other teams are willing to offer top 4, top 6 value for them.

You are talking as though we are contemplating adding a 29, 30 or 31 year old veteran to push for a Cup win in the short term.

Not the case. A guaranteed talent with a track record to confirm it, good for 8 years in his prime, is better than waiting to see if Beck can become 70% as good or if Harris can be a soft top-4 LHD or if a 15th, 16th, 17th or 18th OA pick will be one of the good ones?

Personally, I want the more fully developed player with talent to help develop the less fully developed players with talent.

I don't want just Dubois type players, but one or two doesn't hurt.

Dach wasn't as developed and is panning out. Dubois would be a level up in development and we'd basically be missing a young RHD somewhere between Dach (when we acquired him) and Dubois in terms of development.

Then, bring on the kids and they will be properly surrounded, playing in the right chairs with competent line mates to nurture their growth.

How this sounds alien a concept to some is beyond me?

 

[Andy]

The Tavares signing threw the entire cap structure down the window for the Leafs. Suddenly they went from Kadri making 4.8 as 2C to Tavares making 11 mil as 2C. Couple that signing in with the Matthews/Marner and Nylander contracts, they never had much flexibility to truly improve their blueline or to draft well for one more year. It also rushed their rebuild.

Tavares has 343 points in 349 games with the Leafs, and scored 139 goals in the same period. That's a pace of 35g, 80.5 points over 82 games during his tenure with the leafs.

I would say he's well worth the money, considering the amount other centres in the league are making and that was the contract signed during UFA, not his post entry level deal.

The issue is that global economy was such that impacted the cap rising at a certain pace.

In any event, I don't even think the leafs have been missing that much the last 5 seasons to compete. They've literally had really poor match ups in the playoffs, and lost a couple of 1st rounds due to just bad luck.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Tavares has 343 points in 349 games with the Leafs, and scored 139 goals in the same period. That's a pace of 35g, 80.5 points over 82 games during his tenure with the leafs.

I would say he's well worth the money, considering the amount other centres in the league are making and that was the contract signed during UFA, not his post entry level deal.

The issue is that global economy was such that impacted the cap rising at a certain pace.

In any event, I don't even think the leafs have been missing that much the last 5 seasons to compete. They've literally had really poor match ups in the playoffs, and lost a couple of 1st rounds due to just bad luck.

Great breakdown of the numbers and I agree that Tavares has been very good with the Leafs. No doubt about that.

The issue for me is that the Leafs needed defence more than offence to have a more rounded and complete team. Adding Tavares didn't allow them the cap to add to a defence that was very flawed to say the least and left them to rely on high scoring games to beat their opponents. That works great in the regular season, but no so much in a playoff series where things tighten up and offence dries up in close checking, tight games. That is their fatal flaw IMO and why they won't go far unless they get a performance of a lifetime from their goaltending. You saw Campbell out play/had better numbers than Price but Habs still beat them. That's not a good sign and typical of Leaf playoff hockey.

 

[Sorinth]

It's not crucial, but BOS won its latest Cup because of their depth in their bottom-6 and spectacular goaltending.

Your fourth line makes a difference in the playoffs.

Your original claim was that Pezzatta on the 4th line means you aren't a contender which is much different then saying a 4th line(r) can make a difference in the playoffs. Your original statement was that if Colorado was using Pezzetta on their 4th line then you wouldn't consider them contenders, it wouldn't matter that they have MacKinnon, Makar, and all their other stars, Pezzetta is so bad that he would sink their chances. It's absurd.

 

[Sorinth]

Great breakdown of the numbers and I agree that Tavares has been very good with the Leafs. No doubt about that.

The issue for me is that the Leafs needed defence more than offence to have a more rounded and complete team. Adding Tavares didn't allow them the cap to add to a defence that was very flawed to say the least and left them to rely on high scoring games to beat their opponents. That works great in the regular season, but no so much in a playoff series where things tighten up and offence dries up in close checking, tight games. That is their fatal flaw IMO and why they won't go far unless they get a performance of a lifetime from their goaltending. You saw Campbell out play/had better numbers than Price but Habs still beat them. That's not a good sign and typical of Leaf playoff hockey.

They easily could have traded a guy like Nylander for help on D or G and still had a high powered offence. So even if the argument that they spent too much cap space on F and not enough on D was true the problem wasn't Tavares.

 

[nhlfan9191]

I don't share this kind of aggressive attitude toward PLD. Any player by the time he is UFA is entitled to choose his one or multiple acceptable teams to play for. Any player approaching UFA is entitled to arbitrate (and thus negotiate) only up to that date and then to hit the market.

Whenever a contract is up, teams have the discretion and right to set the salary range for a position and be as firm as they like in not going over if they don't want to. Even arbitration can be avoided by simpolyt not making a qualifying offer.

Players do not owe anyone a hometown discount, but they also have no power to beat up suitors in contract negotiations. They are not obliged to include a team on their negotiating list nor to accept the highest bid, or any particuplar bid.

Restricted free agents have partial autonomy, unrestricted free agents are totally free.

I don’t think it’s aggressive at all to expect some kind a hometown discount from the UFA market. I’m not talking about not paying him, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to get the Tavares treatment where you’re not being forced to bid up because your offer isn’t the highest on the table.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I don’t think it’s aggressive at all to expect some kind a hometown discount from the UFA market. I’m not talking about not paying him, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to get the Tavares treatment where you’re not being forced to bid up because your offer isn’t the highest on the table.

LOL $11M "bargain" for Tavares who has won how many playoff series in his life? $40M for the top 4 forwards with inadequate dollars for 3 more forwards, 3 strong defencemen and a goalie is not a good mix.

Anyway, no one can "force" you to bid up above the level you set as value. Dubois should be earning around $8M based on my perceived value of this player in relation to the other players we will need to compete properly and respect the cap. I don't expect a hometown discount. I'd simply offer him or any other UFA a place on the squad based on my assessment of his future contribution.

That's it, that's all.

 

[nhlfan9191]

LOL $11M "bargain" for Tavares who has won how many playoff series in his life?

I never used the word bargain. I’m aware it’s laughable to think of $11 million as a “discount.” But Tavares did have at least one offer for an even more outrageous number available and others either the same or more so he did leave money on the table to play in Toronto. And I’d like to think if Dubois would do the same for us. That doesn’t meanI have an aggressive attitude towards PLD. If he wants to bend over a team as a UFA I have no problem with that. Players do it all the time. But let him do it to somebody else.

 

[Sterling Archer]

They easily could have traded a guy like Nylander for help on D or G and still had a high powered offence. So even if the argument that they spent too much cap space on F and not enough on D was true the problem wasn't Tavares.

They could've but allocating $11M on D would've been far more significant than $6.9. That's $4.1M more on D, which could net you 2 top two defencman in terms of quality to add to your lineup for the price of Tavares.

Personally, I'd rather have added the 2 quality D than Tavares and givent he team a lot more depth all around than 1ppg.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Repeat after me....we will not use all the assets we currently have, so you need to leverage that in trades.

Bang on bro! Building a very good prospect pool is not just about keeping them all. We do have a deep pool and if a young proven player like Dubois is available, you don't automatically say no because you think all our futures will be hits. We are not trading for a 28 or 29+ type player

Trading for Dubois is not that much different than trading for Dach and using Romanov and other picks. Dach is around 2.5 years younger than Dubois and Dubois is a darn good top 2C that brings a physical element to our team. Suzuki needs it so we get better match up game protection.

 

[Habs Halifax]

They easily could have traded a guy like Nylander for help on D or G and still had a high powered offence. So even if the argument that they spent too much cap space on F and not enough on D was true the problem wasn't Tavares.

A few problems I see with the Leafs:

* Signing Tavares was a move most would make. He did take a bit of a discount cause the Sharks were offering $13M (reported). I would have signed him as well... even knowing they needed help on D.

* How is their drafting after the top 10 picks (Rielly, Nylander, Marner, Matthews)? They have not turned the needle with hits after the top 10. Maybe they finally found a top of the line-up hit with Knies. But with Tampa, they hit with Point and Cirelli. Oilers have also not hit with 2nd+ picks. There are holes in both rosters over the years because of it.

* They missed on the Kadri trade. That was a darn good value contract. I would have been patient in a trade and even if you have to trade him for futures, it stands a better chance at finding guys on D that could be on their roster today on ELC/Bridge deals.

* Covid flat cap for several years. Bad luck yes but that hurt the Leafs and Oilers as well.

 

[DAChampion]

The Habs' trade capital could improve substantially in the next two years if each of Mailloux, Engstrom, Hutson, and Struble progress. It's exciting as I believe in Hughes'ability to make it work.

 

[Mcdonaldz]

@Scriptor just loooooves typing words into the machine… like… he loves it a lot

 

[Habs Halifax]

To each his own. Don't see the fixation with Pezzetta all of a sudden, but, I agree that, at this time, he's fine for the position. Apparently, he's liked by his team mates who get cheered by seeing him get pummelled when he fights.

All good.

I'd prefer a Corey Perry type to Pezzetta, but those players can be targeted and added at the last minute.

Again, to each his own.

I think Pezzetta is nice to have but as an extra forward. Not as a full time 4th liner.

 

[SlafySZN]

Repeat after me....we will not use all the assets we currently have, so you need to leverage that in trades.

Yes.

Doesn’t mean it has to be or will be the trade some people here wants

 

[Habs Halifax]

I never used the word bargain. I’m aware it’s laughable to think of $11 million as a “discount.” But Tavares did have at least one offer for an even more outrageous number available and others either the same or more so he did leave money on the table to play in Toronto. And I’d like to think if Dubois would do the same for us. That doesn’t meanI have an aggressive attitude towards PLD. If he wants to bend over a team as a UFA I have no problem with that. Players do it all the time. But let him do it to somebody else.

Agreed. I am all over adding Dubois either through trade or as a UFA a year later but no way we should be bending over backwards to pay him substantially more than Horvat or Larkin or Hintz. I really do wish we had the chance to know what Brisson would ask because I think Gorton/Hughes already know.

How bad does Montreal want Dubois and how bad does Dubois want Montreal? If this is clear mutual interest, get it done and make sure it's fair to both sides. I have to believe with all the context we know that this is at play but we have to wait it out as fans.

Imagine if the cost to acquire is low (Dvorak, Beck, Engstrom, 2nd rounder) due to leverage where other GM's pass on offering anything? Also imagine if the contract is 8x $7.75M with lots of signing bonus money? Not something most of us are focusing on but you never know.

I doubt Gortgon/Hughes are going to get desperate in both assets to trade and also the contract.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Bang on bro! Building a very good prospect pool is not just about keeping them all. We do have a deep pool and if a young proven player like Dubois is available, you don't automatically say no because you think all our futures will be hits. We are not trading for a 28 or 29+ type player

Trading for Dubois is not that much different than trading for Dach and using Romanov and other picks. Dach is around 2.5 years younger than Dubois and Dubois is a darn good top 2C that brings a physical element to our team. Suzuki needs it so we get better match up game protection.

It is completely different than Dach. Dach is under contract until 25-26 at a reasonable contract. To get Dach they had to trade for him. They may not need to trade assets to get Dubois. Hopefully they know how serious he is about being a Hab.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yes.

Doesn’t mean it has to be or will be the trade some people here wants

Yes but saying you don't want Dubois cause you want to "rebuild properly" is flawed. What I see is you being confused between a Habs rebuild vs a Blackhawks rebuild. I do think you want the Blackhawks rebuild based on the context you have provided so I repeat, you might as well create a bandwagon where you want to trade Suzuki, Caufield, Dach so you can tank over and over again for a lottery win. Might end up the Oilers or the Sabres.

Like it or not, our rebuild is tracking a Rangers type rebuild. Not like the Oilers. Unless we get really lucky and get Bedard. Hope so but not counting on it.

Question: I'm curious, without Dubois in our line-up next year, what pick do you think we have for the 2024 draft? Do you see the youth not growing more and we have injuries like this again? If we move to a 10-15 range pick next year cause the injuries is less and the youth grows more, is this not rebuilding properly?

 

[Habs Halifax]

It is completely different than Dach. Dach is under contract until 25-26 at a reasonable contract. To get Dach they had to trade for him. They may not need to trade assets to get Dubois. Hopefully they know how serious he is about being a Hab.

It's different but not completely different. Dach is on a bridge and decent contract but Dubois is more proven and you don't have the bridge option. We can nit pick the difference but lets not overlook the main point. The other angle is what it takes to extend Dach after the 4 year contract. If he performs well, that will cost more than what you have to pay Dubois today and that comes at a time when our contending window is happening. Hopefully the cap grows a lot cause Gallagher's contract overlaps Dach by one year. Something to watch out for in the next few seasons.

The main point is adding assets around Suzuki's age or younger and keeping the age spread to around 8 years. It is 8 years from Dubois to the 2024 picks. Same range between Stamkos/Hedman and Point/Sergachev.

I was not on board with trying to trade for Meier but I am with Dubois. Dubois will be 25 next year and Meier will be 27. That spreads it out too much. So yeah, Dubois is on the cusp of how far I would stretch it.

 

[Rapala]

They easily could have traded a guy like Nylander for help on D or G and still had a high powered offence. So even if the argument that they spent too much cap space on F and not enough on D was true the problem wasn't Tavares.

Too much of a good thing is never good.

 

[Expos94]

FLA 1st + Beck + Edmundson stings a bit, I'll admit, but it's still a mere flesh wound.



If we draft a top C like Smith (assuming Smith can become a top C in the NHL), I'd still trade for Dubois.

Talent is talent and you never have enough of that. At some point, if you become overstocked with talent, things will shake out by themselves as you move more expensive, established players, close to exiting their prime years, to teams with closing windows for futures that can keep your own Cup window open longer.

It's a wheel and, if properly managed, a good thing.

IMO, Dubois is a power forward that can play C or W as efficiently as the other.

I think you never have enough top-6 Cs, personally. It adds insurance in case of injuries and it's much easier for a C to play wing with impact than a winger to do as much as a pivot.

We've seen how depth at C can be fragile with all the injuries this year.

I m going to predict we give up Florida 's 1st and Dvorak and maybe a little something else that's it... Winnipeg is not in the driver's seat here

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

They easily could have traded a guy like Nylander for help on D or G and still had a high powered offence. So even if the argument that they spent too much cap space on F and not enough on D was true the problem wasn't Tavares.

The prblem was Tavares. Matthews, Nylander and Marner all have different contributions to the offense. Kadri could have provided what Tavares did and been cheaper.