HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #84: Off-Season edition

[Habitant#1]

Regarding Monahan, I'm not sure why the Habs would sign a UFA just to cross their fingers for a return at the deadline. I think a better use of cap space is doing exactly what they did woth Monahan in the first place: accept compesation in exchange for taking on a big expiring contract. It's better to be paid up front rather than risk the asset being injured IMO.

 

[Tuggy]

No interest in bringing Monahan back. He is broken and very doubtful he is able to remain healthy anymore.

He got us a first round pick. That's great, now move on.

 

[Tuggy]

yeah a rumour circulating was that Brisebois offered Hughes a 4th for Eddy. yikes if true

That's a shit return and I'm glad HuGo declined (if it's true).

Much better chance of selling him next season as a true rental.

 

[Scriptor]

Of our five best players, three came by trade, one was drafted 15th and the final one was drafted 16th.

By the way, only 2 NHL teams have a number one goalie that they drafted themselves in the first round.

Yeah, but it sounded good to the poster when they wrote it. Doesn't need to be factual. The only close thing that could have been factual is saying, "All starting Gs, at some point, were drafted," and even that isn't always true.

But, hey, whatever...

 

[Runner77]

Just cause this crazy trade deadline was quiet for the Habs, does not mean that their level of activity at the draft and during the summer, will be. Why not let it play out and then judge?

 

[Scriptor]

I'd be ok trading prospects in a Dubois trade, but using the Oilers as an example there is a bad idea, since the biggest mistake they made in their long term rebuild was they constantly trying to take shortcuts.

For point of reference, Edmonton didn't have their 2nd or 3rd round picks in the McDavid draft (16th OA - Barzal and 33rd OA for G. Reinhart, 3rd for V. Fast).

They also didn't have a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2014. And even when they were rebuilding, they rarely added picks. From 2009 to 2016, they had one draft with an extra 1st and one draft with two extra 2nds.

Imagine where Edmonton would be in the McDavid era if they added one of Barzal/Connor/Chabot. Plus, if they scouted well, they could have also added a Carlo, Aho or Cernak as well.

It's not the same situation at all. Montreal has multiple first rounders, which it can choose to draft a player that is 18 and hard to project with certainty, or get one it already knows what he amounts to being.

If Montreal picks in the 2023 draft with it's own pick to add one of Bedard, Fantilli, Michkov, Carlsson, Smith, Benson, or Dvorsky, depending where we pick with our own pick (#1 - #7), then trades the FLA pick for Dubois, a player that will, in all likelihood, be better than whomever is picked with the Florida pick becomes, I don't see the problem.

With your logic, it would be, imagine where we could have been with Suzuki, Caufield, one of those seven prospects listed above for the MON pick and, you know, that lesser player to Dubois if we hadn't traded the FLA pick for Dubois.

It makes zero sense because Dubois is not a 30-yr-old player -- he's in the prime age bracket to be part of our young core as it matures over the next 8 years!

It sounds as incoherent as SnapVirus's argument that, you know, Dubois only scored 60 points twice in his career.

Right, only twice by the age of 23 and 99% three times by the age of 24, including 4 times scoring 20 goals or more, with 99% three of those times being 25+ goals! This year, he's likely to have progressed and gotten closer to 70 points than 60 points, considering the amount of games left and him already having 55 points, barring a serious injury.

So yeah that sounds like someone we will be disappointed we missed out on someone else if we acquire him with a mid first round pick.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like someone who, at 24, entering the peak years of his career, is still progressing?

I've read countless opinions on acquiring Dubois and, as much as some would want it to come across as the player being some useless husk that only gets coveted by some Hab fans because his name is Dubois and because he's from Ste-Agathe-Des-Monts in Quebec, it's coming across the other way around.

It's starting to sound like some vocal fans don't want Dubois because his name is Dubois and because he's from Ste-Agathe-Des-Monts in Quebec.

Basically, the reality is that Dubois -- only still 24 -- was chosen as a #3 OA pick because he was a skilled, physical, two-way C with offensive upside and, to date, despite playing under Mind-Fukcer Tortorella at the start of his career, has been progressing exactly s one would expect from a skilled, physical, two-way C that is progressively displaying all of his offensive upside.

Nobody said,"We want the next McDavid," when they professed wanting to acquire Dubois, but it sounds like, without McDavid numbers, Dubois is not a good enough name to play in Montreal?

If he was from DuBoise, Idaho, would he be more attractive to some of his biggest opposers?

This needs to be fuelling a large part of those who vehemently dislike;ike Dubois because everything about this player says, "Go out and get him."

I personally couldn't care less that he is a Quebec-born player. I truly believe that Dubois, in his hey day, will have the same impact that O'Reilly had in St-Louis. He'll just have to learn how to grow a good beard.

Dubois can be a huge part of a winning team, but he is not a saviour.

The attitude of always looking for the next saviour (Wright, before he stopped being the flavour of the week, Bedard?) just prevents us from adding valuable PIECES to form a winning TEAM for a sport that is one of the ULTIMATE TEAM SPORTS.

 

[morhilane]

We are entering the boring part of the season in term of trades. Nothing is going to happen until the draft (June). Although, there are a few cases of players being traded during the playoffs by none competing teams.

Hopefully Hughes managed to setup a few trade framework for the draft for the players with terms (which are harder to move at the deadline). I think Dvorak, Eddy and Hoffman should be moveable. Anderson too if someone is ready to pay a fortune for him.

Too bad that Gallagher and Armia can't be moved, but at the same time, they really love spending time on IR now.

 

[Scriptor]

Ottawa is doing kind of the same mistake. Not that i dislike what they are doing but i feel like it wont be enough and they have only 5 picks in the first 3 rounds total (out of the usual 9) for the next 3 years. AT least the players they acquired are still young (Debrincat and Chychrun). But it will be tough for them to improve the team with so few picks and what they have atm is imo not enough.

Where is MON making that mistake. What is being suggested has nothing to do with getting rid of all their precious picks -- Bugger All!

People are making loose connections that just aren't there.

Unless you are saying that OTT is making the same mistake as EDM made?

 

[Rapala]

Trying to think of another HFBeauty that’s worst than these examples …

Your not wrong.

 

[Scriptor]

So from what I’ve read from multiple “insiders” is that Winnipeg is looking for help on their top 2 lines, preferably someone that plays fast, and they also have a problem attracting players long term. Anderson fills all those boxes.

His market value is a 1st + so I see him plus a 2nd draft pick and a prospect being similar to the return that Vancouver got for Horvat who is a comparable to PLD.

That’s my two cents

Unfortunately, it doesn't address the need to replace Dubois as a C. Perhaps , from within, one can argue that Perfetti might replace Dubois as a top-6 C

adding a prospect that is easily a 3rd line, shutdown C, but also has legitimate top-6 upside in Beck would make your offer more than fair, IMHO.

Anderson + Beck + MON 2023 2nd round pick + Trudeau (Make that Harris and I think this deal covers every base for WIN, actually)

What's even more important than just the quality of the players offered is that they are all under team control for at least 4 years...

That's a shit return and I'm glad HuGo declined (if it's true).

Much better chance of selling him next season as a true rental.

Or in the offseason.

 

[salbutera]

Just cause this crazy trade deadline was quiet for the Habs, does not mean that their level of activity at the draft and during the summer, will be. Why not let it play out and then judge?

Because I want everyone traded and a 10-years full tank rebuild, but never want to lose a single game.

Signed,
Habsfan

 

[Rapala]

I've read countless opinions on acquiring Dubois and, as much as some would want it to come across as the player being some useless husk that only gets coveted by some Hab fans because his name is Dubois and because he's from Ste-Agathe-Des-Monts in Quebec, it's coming across the other way around.

It's starting to sound like some vocal fans don't want Dubois because his name is Dubois and because he's from Ste-Agathe-Des-Monts in Quebec.

Do you really want to go there? Maybe some people just don't think we particularly need Dubois at this time. We've been inundated with PLD posts by both you and your baseball friend ad infinitum I think we know your stance. But to pull this shit out of your hat because people may not agree with you is simply LAME.

 

[gusfring]

No need to trade for him as we don't need him immediately.

Why give any assets when you can get him for free in free agency.

Because there is no guarantee that happens.

 

[Habs 4 Life]

Just cause this crazy trade deadline was quiet for the Habs, does not mean that their level of activity at the draft and during the summer, will be. Why not let it play out and then judge?

Exactly, no point in rushing to try to get something done and end up getting fleeced.

Kent has plenty of time to start thinking about next season and the players he would like to target in the summer, last off season he did pretty dam well

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

View attachment 664425

Wow amazing

 

[Runner77]

Your not wrong.

Not loosing any sleep over this.

A Habs lose tomorrow would be big.

 

[Beendair Donedat]

Just cause this crazy trade deadline was quiet for the Habs, does not mean that their level of activity at the draft and during the summer, will be. Why not let it play out and then judge?

Good luck, the Mob wants immediate results, yesterday.

 

[Canadienna]

Because there is no guarantee that happens.

It's basically a risk probability calculation.

You take the likelihood of Dubois entering FA and signing here, the likelihood of signing him after a trade, the salary required, the cost of the assets for a trade required, and the value he would bring to the team - you put it through a mental algorithm and come up with an answer.

The problem is a lot of the those are pretty unknown to fans, and some are likely unknown to HuGo.

In my opinion, players like it when you show you want them. If we get even a bit of a "Trouba" discount on Dubois this summer, then I pay the price. But I acknowledge I'm working on a lot of unknowns.

 

[MarkovsKnee]

Apologies if this was already mentioned, but listened to 32 Thoughts Podcast today and one of the subjects they mentioned were some deals that didn't end up happening.

Friedman mentioned that Tampa really wanted to add another defenseman. He mentioned they looked at Gudas and they also looked at Edmundson. But eventually, they didn't have the assets necessary to acquire Edmundson.

No kidding. They gave them all away for Jeannot.

 

[Scriptor]

Do you really want to go there? Maybe some people just don't think we particularly need Dubois at this time. We've been inundated with PLD posts by both you and your baseball friend ad infinitum I think we know your stance. But to pull this shit out of your hat because people may not agree with you is simply LAME.

Lame? When you read some of the efforts to confound the truth, it makes you wonder.

Really, because it goes beyond the reasonable arguments and is based on absolutely nothing at times, if not completely disingenuous narratives.

So yeah, I am going there, because it really makes me wonder?

I personally don't give a fukc where he's from and the argument that he is a local player is not anywhere near the top of the list of reasons why I would want Dubois to be a Hab.

It may not apply to you, but I guarantee you it does to some.

The rationale just isn't there not to want the player, or to make it a "he must prove he wants to play here by signing as an UFA" BS.

"I'd only take him if he signed as an UFA?" Really? Just say you don't like the guy and you don't want him. Stop bullshitting... (Again maybe not you).

 

[Scriptor]

It's basically a risk probability calculation.

You take the likelihood of Dubois entering FA and signing here, the likelihood of signing him after a trade, the salary required, the cost of the assets for a trade required, and the value he would bring to the team - you put it through a mental algorithm and come up with an answer.

The problem is a lot of the those are pretty unknown to fans, and some are likely unknown to HuGo.

In my opinion, players like it when you show you want them. If we get even a bit of a "Trouba" discount on Dubois this summer, then I pay the price. But I acknowledge I'm working on a lot of unknowns.

IMO, that is important when you want a cap hit that makes sense for your plan heading forward. If, all you can do is toss coin at a player when they are UFAs, showing that you truly want them is, basically, tossing, more coin at him than the next guy.

I don't want to be in that situation, plus, I think that having Dubois as soon as next season will only be beneficial for the progression of Caufield, Dubois, Dach and Slafkovsky.

If Anderson is not part of a deal for Dubois,

Caufield - Suzuki - Dach
Slafkovsky - Dubois - Anderson

as a top-6, while not what will be in a couple of years, will be solid enough to allow the younger members of that top-6 to take a solid step forward in their development.

That, to me, is priceless and, foregoing that because someone wants to pick top-5 again next year is just senseless.

The following year, there would be enough experienced players to handle a few more rookie forwards on board.

Caufield - Suzuki - Roy
Farrell - Dubois - Anderson
Slafkovsky - Dach - 2023 1st rounder
RHP/Heineman - Beck - Heineman/Mesar

The following could see us trade Anderson for a 1st round pick and a prospect and players moving uo the depth chart.

Caufield - Suzuki - Roy
Farrell - Dubois - 2023 1st rounder
Salfkovsky - Dach - Mesar
RHP - Beck - Heineman

 

[Rapala]

Lame? When you read some of the efforts to confound the truth, it makes you wonder.

Really, because it goes beyond the reasonable arguments and is based on absolutely nothing at times, if not completely disingenuous narratives.

So yeah, I am going there, because it really makes me wonder?

I personally don't give a fukc where he's from and the argument that he is a local player is not anywhere near the top of the list of reasons why I would want Dubois to be a Hab.

It may not apply to you, but I guarantee you it does to some.

The rationale just isn't there not to want the player, or to make it a "he must prove he wants to play here by signing as an UFA" BS.

"I'd only take him if he signed as an UFA?" Really? Just say you don't like the guy and you don't want him. Stop bullshitting... (Again maybe not you).

What do you mean Maybe not you. I've been steadfast in my belief that Hughes may not have this on his plate at all wanting to give Kirby Dach the role. I don't see a huge reason to rush on Dubois. Winnipeg are handcuffed and will remain so next season. As much as we won't sell assets unless our price is met we won't buy them either. With everything that's been said on this topic I have to believe that Winnipeg will always circle back if they are getting ready to pull the trigger. I don't think we have to blink until then.

 

[Scriptor]

What do you mean Maybe not you. I've been steadfast in my belief that Hughes may not have this on his plate at all wanting to give Kirby Dach the role. I don't see a huge reason to rush on Dubois. Winnipeg are handcuffed and will remain so next season. As much as we won't sell assets unless our price is met we won't buy them either. With everything that's been said on this topic I have to believe that Winnipeg will always circle back if they are getting ready to pull the trigger. I don't think we have to blink until then.

But you act like, if something happens this offseason, it's Montreal on their knees with their pants pulled down and their rear right up in WIN's face, hiding over a broom stick and ready to undergo some unfortunate initiation rite.

I think it's in WIN's interest to get a deal done for Dubois this summer and, if you're true to what you write, that could be them circling back, ready to pull the trigger.

You'd be for it then?

No, too soon?

Say no to WIN and wait until the trade deadline, or that year's UFA market if Dubois isn't traded at the trade deadline?

I don't think there is a scenario where you think Dubois comes here, from your statements, when I break them down.

I disagree with your premise -- not that Hughes might want to see Dach progress at C -- he just well might because it's all to his/our advantage (you never have enough top-6 Cs).

I disagree with the portion where you say, as much as we won't sell assets unless our price is met, we won't buy them either.

What do you mean by that -- I disagree either way, but I'd like to be clearer on this -- that we won't buy, period, or that we won't buy unless our price is met?

If it's that we won't buy, period, I find that doubtful when I look at what Gorton did while he was GM in New York.

As far as it being that we won't buy assets unless our price is met, what's to say what Hughes pays for Dubois this summer isn't the price he set?

Not every trade needs to be one GM fleecing another, but I expect WIN doesn't get the haul they expect since they are not in a position to command such a haul.

We also all witnessed Hughes being willing to trade Romanov for a 13th OA (which was a great haul in and of itself) and then willing to flip that 13th OA for Kirby Dach.

I think that HuGo and Hughes, period, are a lot more proactive than you might believe.

Adding Dubois does not screw up the rebuild in the least and it might not even prevent Dach from being groomed as a C. We don't have that information and your fears it would don't amount to fact.

 

[ReHabs]

Just cause this crazy trade deadline was quiet for the Habs, does not mean that their level of activity at the draft and during the summer, will be. Why not let it play out and then judge?

It's more fair to people to judge at the moment of the action, with the information they have on hand, and then evaluate as more information comes out or things develop. There's no shame in changing your mind about something like this.

If judgement is suspended until the undefined future, you end up with the same sort of effect as the Bergevin era where people would insist that next year is the year that he'll have to put it all together so we should wait just a bit longer.

Hughes put together a better team than expected this year and his gamble with all the rookie D-men worked out marvellously to add, his best move was hiring MSL for sure. I think there are many encouraging and optimistic things around the Habs these days for sure but it's fair to say the TDL is usually where you pick up draft assets and he didn't manage to do so this year. Is it worthy of criticism? I think sure. And if he manages to improve our draft stock from now until the draft, he'll be worthy of praise.

 

[Runner77]

It's more fair to people to judge at the moment of the action, with the information they have on hand, and then evaluate as more information comes out or things develop. There's no shame in changing your mind about something like this.

If judgement is suspended until the undefined future, you end up with the same sort of effect as the Bergevin era where people would insist that next year is the year that he'll have to put it all together so we should wait just a bit longer.

Hughes put together a better team than expected this year and his gamble with all the rookie D-men worked out marvellously to add, his best move was hiring MSL for sure. I think there are many encouraging and optimistic things around the Habs these days for sure but it's fair to say the TDL is usually where you pick up draft assets and he didn't manage to do so this year. Is it worthy of criticism? I think sure. And if he manages to improve our draft stock from now until the draft, he'll be worthy of praise.

The current context couldn’t be further from Bergevin’s hollow promises and contradictions.

There is really nothing to judge now. There were only 3 assets on expiring contracts this deadline and one of them was an injury concern and obviously had no takers. No one was interested in Drouin and the third, Dadonov found a taker even if most in here thought he’d gather no interest.

As for the players on multi-year contracts, the trading deadline was not the best time to move them and those players with extra contract years that did find takers, were deemed better acquisitions by the market. The only one that perhaps was the exception, Edmundson, scared off potential suitors on account of recurring back issues. What was Hughes supposed to sell, core players just to land another pick?

The point of my post is that there wasn’t much more Hughes could do at this juncture. The idea of focusing on summer activity is that for the first time, Hughes will have substantial cap room to work with. That’s just 3 months away, not next year or on some undefinable timeline as in Bergevin’s universe.

I commend Hughes for staying the course and for having made inroads on the arduous task of ditching excess baggage. And for targeting a player profile that fits a defined strategy of what he wants this team to look like.

The fact that he couldn’t land a third 1st rounder doesn’t make him a failure, nor worthy of criticism. This whole thing of him having to improve the draft stock for him to avert criticism is a huge straw man. Did he not show that he was capable of bold, high upside moves when he orchestrated a move to acquire Dach last summer? Or how he was creatively able to deal off Weber’s contract? Landing a first rounder for Monahan? Selecting Hutson when all teams passed?

Hence my comment — this summer is really the time when the type of assets he’ll have on hand, can actually offer transactional options. If he were to blatantly fail on those opportunities through acts imputable to his negligence, then I can see a reason to let him have it.

Of course, to each their own. We’ll agree yo disagree.