HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #84: Off-Season edition

[Rapala]

Not weighing in either way on Wilde's opinions, but just pointing out his post you quoted isn't an opinion. He's simply pointing out that Pronman has Reinbacher at 7 and Benson at 13 and hence the wild swings in lists are starting to happen.

This is likely to continue to some extent as post season results do tend to have an impact on positioning. The reality however is most players pertinent results usually occur the following season.

 

[Scriptor]

Who said anything about perfect?

But what’s with you guys — just because I don’t trust the new rookie GM who has two losing seasons under his belt today doesn’t mean I’ll be tilting against him forever. Trust is earned and I’m not even tilting against the guy. It’s all up in the air. Call it mild optimism.

Toxic negativity and toxic positivity and toxic tanking and toxic cheering for the team the wrong way are all just as bad as far as I’m concerned.

Maybe trust is the wrong word?

Are you willing to give the new Gm the benefit of the doubt for a year or two until you can actually judge the ramifications of his moves?

Trust is earned, but that should be based on a sum of actions, because not all moves work out, due to the human factor that always comes into play.

Micro-analyzing every move is just a convenient way to be negative, especially when the analysis is done before any data is conclusive.

That's the point. I'll take your negativity with a grain of salt until the data is ripe for analysis.

Anyone biatching about Slafkovsky, Mesar or some other draft prospect, for example, is far from proven right this early in the juncture after the most recent draft.

The same goes for Hughes' choices so far in his tenure.

It's not a question of having a honeymoon phase where the GM can do no wrong -- It's about whether there is anything that can be analyzed quantifiably yet to determine whether he has done anything wrong.

If there is, by all means, bring it up. Personally, I can't imagine what can be conclusively perceived as doing something wrong barely a year after getting the job.

It should be a waiting game...

For some, it's a waiting game with the shotgun firmly planted in anticipation. There are always some like that...

Wilde is an idiot and doesn't know shit about f***

Trial balloon? Wilde is a corporate stooge, at best...

 

[Sterling Archer]

Not weighing in either way on Wilde's opinions, but just pointing out his post you quoted isn't an opinion. He's simply pointing out that Pronman has Reinbacher at 7 and Benson at 13 and hence the wild swings in lists are starting to happen.

In his radio piece, he was very adament that it was an opinion based on someone in the organization telling him who they liked. He said he thought it would be Will Smith around that spot as Hughes coached him, but was told a couple of other names, he didn't mention in the interview but later tweeted about. He went on to say who knows and things change but definitely said it was a Habs source who told him and that Hab fans wouldn't like who they wanted to pick.

Just a very strange piece by the way. Not sure if you heard it or not, but it was all over the place, so difficult to describe,. I'd recommend listening to it if you haven't already.

 

[Scriptor]

GTFO with your attitude and insults and take them elsewhere. Mr. Scriptor is the only one who can have a valid opinion. Like I said before we all know what you think as you keep posting it OVER and OVER. I don't think like or act like you and am happy for it. No need to reply we don't and won't agree.

It definitely ends here on this subject, with a definite impasse. That's fair and okay as well. My goal is not to convince you.

As for what you perceive I act or think as, that's entirely your problem. I don't think I was disrespectful to you in my comments at all.

Attitude? Insults?

WTF are you basing this on? Where in the bolded portion am I insulting you? And what attitude are you referring to -- Not agreeing with you and asking you to explain your position?

All I did was conjure an image to state that, in order to justify not trading for Dubois, you assume doing as much would represent Hughes cowering to WIN's demands in order to get a deal done at all cost.

Nobody serious ever suggested that on this site/forum or any other site/forum I've come across, not even on francophone sites/forums.

I take offense at being described as insulting here. I honestly don't think this is the case.

Maybe my perception of insult is different than yours and, if you find my post to be insulting, I apologize, but I don't know what to say. That's not the intention, anyhow.

My comments can become heated, perhaps, but I wouldn't go through the trouble of outlining my position, or asking what you would do if my purpose was to insult you, or anyone else.

In his radio piece, he was very adament that it was an opinion based on someone in the organization telling him who they liked. He said he thought it would be Will Smith around that spot as Hughes coached him, but was told a couple of other names, he didn't mention in the interview but later tweeted about. He went on to say who knows and things change but definitely said it was a Habs source who told him and that Hab fans wouldn't like who they wanted to pick.

Just a very strange piece by the way. Not sure if you heard it or not, but it was all over the place, so difficult to describe,. I'd recommend listening to it if you haven't already.

The Night Janitor? Someone in the organization?

A discussion with Brobrov telling him, "This is the guy we would pick at this spot," is newsworthy. This BS isn't.

 

[ReHabs]

Maybe trust is the wrong word?

Are you willing to give the new Gm the benefit of the doubt for a year or two until you can actually judge the ramifications of his moves?

Trust is earned, but that should be based on a sum of actions, because not all moves work out, due to the human factor that always comes into play.

Micro-analyzing every move is just a convenient way to be negative, especially when the analysis is done before any data is conclusive.

That's the point. I'll take your negativity with a grain of salt until the data is ripe for analysis.

Anyone biatching about Slafkovsky, Mesar or some other draft prospect, for example, is far from proven right this early in the juncture after the most recent draft.

The same goes for Hughes' choices so far in his tenure.

It's not a question of having a honeymoon phase where the GM can do no wrong -- It's about whether there is anything that can be analyzed quantifiably yet to determine whether he has done anything wrong.

If there is, by all means, bring it up. Personally, I can't imagine what can be conclusively perceived as doing something wrong barely a year after getting the job.

It should be a waiting game...

For some, it's a waiting game with the shotgun firmly planted in anticipation. There are always some like that...


Trial balloon? Wilde is a corporate stooge, at best...

The same applies the other way, right?

If it’s inconclusive with not enough data points you cannot claim that he played the TDL correctly — can you? It’s inconclusive.

I’d be happy to say “let’s see how it plays out” if it wasn’t an identical scenario as with Bergevin’s tenure where many people insist that the GM did everything correctly for months and months until the whole thing falls apart.

So by all means, let’s see how it plays out but don’t go on and insist that he played the TDL as well as he could — it’s inconclusive.

 

[Captain Mountain]

It's not the same situation at all. Montreal has multiple first rounders, which it can choose to draft a player that is 18 and hard to project with certainty, or get one it already knows what he amounts to being.

If Montreal picks in the 2023 draft with it's own pick to add one of Bedard, Fantilli, Michkov, Carlsson, Smith, Benson, or Dvorsky, depending where we pick with our own pick (#1 - #7), then trades the FLA pick for Dubois, a player that will, in all likelihood, be better than whomever is picked with the Florida pick becomes, I don't see the problem.

With your logic, it would be, imagine where we could have been with Suzuki, Caufield, one of those seven prospects listed above for the MON pick and, you know, that lesser player to Dubois if we hadn't traded the FLA pick for Dubois.

It makes zero sense because Dubois is not a 30-yr-old player -- he's in the prime age bracket to be part of our young core as it matures over the next 8 years!

It sounds as incoherent as SnapVirus's argument that, you know, Dubois only scored 60 points twice in his career.

Right, only twice by the age of 23 and 99% three times by the age of 24, including 4 times scoring 20 goals or more, with 99% three of those times being 25+ goals! This year, he's likely to have progressed and gotten closer to 70 points than 60 points, considering the amount of games left and him already having 55 points, barring a serious injury.

So yeah that sounds like someone we will be disappointed we missed out on someone else if we acquire him with a mid first round pick.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like someone who, at 24, entering the peak years of his career, is still progressing?

I've read countless opinions on acquiring Dubois and, as much as some would want it to come across as the player being some useless husk that only gets coveted by some Hab fans because his name is Dubois and because he's from Ste-Agathe-Des-Monts in Quebec, it's coming across the other way around.

It's starting to sound like some vocal fans don't want Dubois because his name is Dubois and because he's from Ste-Agathe-Des-Monts in Quebec.

Basically, the reality is that Dubois -- only still 24 -- was chosen as a #3 OA pick because he was a skilled, physical, two-way C with offensive upside and, to date, despite playing under Mind-Fukcer Tortorella at the start of his career, has been progressing exactly s one would expect from a skilled, physical, two-way C that is progressively displaying all of his offensive upside.

Nobody said,"We want the next McDavid," when they professed wanting to acquire Dubois, but it sounds like, without McDavid numbers, Dubois is not a good enough name to play in Montreal?

If he was from DuBoise, Idaho, would he be more attractive to some of his biggest opposers?

This needs to be fuelling a large part of those who vehemently dislike;ike Dubois because everything about this player says, "Go out and get him."

I personally couldn't care less that he is a Quebec-born player. I truly believe that Dubois, in his hey day, will have the same impact that O'Reilly had in St-Louis. He'll just have to learn how to grow a good beard.

Dubois can be a huge part of a winning team, but he is not a saviour.

The attitude of always looking for the next saviour (Wright, before he stopped being the flavour of the week, Bedard?) just prevents us from adding valuable PIECES to form a winning TEAM for a sport that is one of the ULTIMATE TEAM SPORTS.

This rant is great and all, but you completely, and I mean completely, missed my point. You certainly didn't read the first sentence.

My point was that the focus still needs to be on building. If you can get Dubois for something like the Florida 1st (assuming its not too high) and Anderson then its something you need to seriously consider. If the ask is Florida's 1st, Dach and Farrell, you don't, since you're giving up a lot and aren't getting cap relief, which is still an issue.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

I wish the Habs were in a better spot in their rebuild as JT Miller would be an interesting piece to look at.

 

[BergevinBurner]

I wish the Habs were in a better spot in their rebuild as JT Miller would be an interesting piece to look at.

I'm not sure if I've ever seen a PPG level player get slammed by their own fanbase as much as Miller. That alone makes me not wanna touch that contract.

 

[Habs Halifax]

This rant is great and all, but you completely, and I mean completely, missed my point. You certainly didn't read the first sentence.

My point was that the focus still needs to be on building. If you can get Dubois for something like the Florida 1st (assuming its not too high) and Anderson then its something you need to seriously consider. If the ask is Florida's 1st, Dach and Farrell, you don't, since you're giving up a lot and aren't getting cap relief, which is still an issue.

I agree with your main point. However, I would not make it a deal braker with Anderson in the deal (or not) but I would prefer to retain him. Panthers 1st post lottery (12-16 range) is a prime piece most other teams won't be able to touch. I think adding Anderson on top is going to deep. Edmundson or Armia as the NHL contract is more probable IMO (Maybe Harris or Barron). Then some B+ prospects. Jets are in a difficult spot and I have no doubt Hughes/Gorton use their leverage well. For all we know, their offer is Panthers 1st straight up.

My guess is it falls around the Horvat or Trouba trade. Many fans saying Jets don't want to rebuild but they are also ignoring circumstance that they just don't have that much control and they have to take the best offer. Jets traded Trouba for the 20th pick and Pionk and that was at a time where they had a better contender vs today. Horvat trade included Beauvillier and that's not far off from Hoffman as a NHL contract.

Caufield / Suzuki / Dach
Slaf / Dubois / Anderson
RHP / Monahan / Armia
Hoffman / Dvorak / Gallagher
Evans, Pitlick

If we were to get lucky and get Bedard. Not sure what the roster looks like then.

Imagine if Gorton/Hughes offer Anderson, Harris, and a 2nd rounder? Jets fans would flip out

 

[Habs Halifax]

I wish the Habs were in a better spot in their rebuild as JT Miller would be an interesting piece to look at.

Term is too long. Even for contenders who can fit him in. 5 year term from age 30-34 would be more ideal.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Anybody notice that the Jets moved Connor to the Scheifele line over the last month? This was a move they made prior to Dubois's day/day injury. He's back now and Connor is still with Scheifele.

Consider this. Rick Bowness said before the season that he will do everything in his power to convince Dubois to stay and for most of the season, Connor was on his line. Then the report came out by Kypreos that Dubois is not changing his mind and shortly after, Connor was moved to the Scheifele line. I'm not a big fan of Kypreos but he does have connections.

Pay attention to the context. If you were the Jets GM, you would have started to talk with Brisson after the Holidays about an extension. They need to know one way or another cause they have two others to manage who need new contracts soon... Scheifele and Helle.

Dubois message stays consistent. I really feel for the Jets but it's their own problem cause they are the ones who intervened on when Dubois asked out of Columbus and traded Laine/Rost thinking they can extend him.

 

[sampollock]

Wilde is an idiot and doesn't know shit about f***

he needs to go with Tony or do a sing along with Melnick

Anybody notice that the Jets moved Connor to the Scheifele line over the last month? This was a move they made prior to Dubois's day/day injury. He's back now and Connor is still with Scheifele.

Consider this. Rick Bowness said before the season that he will do everything in his power to convince Dubois to stay and for most of the season, Connor was on his line. Then the report came out by Kypreos that Dubois is not changing his mind and shortly after, Connor was moved to the Scheifele line. I'm not a big fan of Kypreos but he does have connections.

Pay attention to the context. If you were the Jets GM, you would have started to talk with Brisson after the Holidays about an extension. They need to know one way or another cause they have two others to manage who need new contracts... Scheifele and Helle.

Dubois message stays consistent. I really feel for the Jets but it's their own problem cause they are the ones who intervened on when Dubois asked out of Columbus and traded Laine/Rost thinking they can extend him.

Time will tell, if all these rumors of PLD wanting to come here

 

[Habs Halifax]

he needs to go with Tony or do a sing along with Melnick


Time will tell, if all these rumors of PLD wanting to come here

Dubois wanting to come to Montreal is not a rumor. It was words right out of his agents mouth when he was a RFA. Once he signed the one year deal, they had a press conference to calm down the noise and Dubois's main message was he was focused on this season. He basically said what he needed to say and that's it.

The question here is how many teams is Dubois open too? Habs and how many others? Why would the Jets not be one of them? Think about it. I guess you can say he wants to play for a big market team cause that's what he said when he asked out of Columbus.

Only team I'm worried about are the Avs (Sakic). But what do they have to trade? Newhook, Girard, and their 20+ 1st?

With Dubois wanting out of Columbus and Winnipeg (looks like it), who's trading for Dubois and gambling that they can convince him to extend? GM's will no doubt be interested in the sign/trade and the Avs are a team he would consider for sure.

So yeah, I'm thinking Habs or Avs. Would Sakic spend assets for one season of Dubois? Possible

 

[Tim Wallach]

In his radio piece, he was very adament that it was an opinion based on someone in the organization telling him who they liked. He said he thought it would be Will Smith around that spot as Hughes coached him, but was told a couple of other names, he didn't mention in the interview but later tweeted about. He went on to say who knows and things change but definitely said it was a Habs source who told him and that Hab fans wouldn't like who they wanted to pick.

Just a very strange piece by the way. Not sure if you heard it or not, but it was all over the place, so difficult to describe,. I'd recommend listening to it if you haven't already.

Oh yeah, I heard it and it was definitely all over the place. And I'm not defending any of his choices. I was just clarifying that in the tweet of his that you quoted, I don't think he was saying they'll take Benson at 13. He is just showing that Pronman had now dropped Benson to 13 and it's starting the wild changes in lists we're about to see.

 

[Scriptor]

The same applies the other way, right?

If it’s inconclusive with not enough data points you cannot claim that he played the TDL correctly — can you? It’s inconclusive.

I’d be happy to say “let’s see how it plays out” if it wasn’t an identical scenario as with Bergevin’s tenure where many people insist that the GM did everything correctly for months and months until the whole thing falls apart.

So by all means, let’s see how it plays out but don’t go on and insist that he played the TDL as well as he could — it’s inconclusive.

No, we can't possibly maintain that he played the TDL to a tee -- we don't know what was on the table and what wasn't, or even truly what his intentions were, but what is correctly?

If your vision (just a hypothetical for argument's sake) is that there should have been a firesafe of veterans with term such as Edmundson, Anderson, Dvorak, Armia, Hoffman, Matheson and such and Hughes was more moderate, not even having tried to trade those more easily moved such as Dvorak (because he wants to keep some C depth while we continue to groom Dach, test out Beck, look to acquire a young top-6 C perhaps, like Dubois, etc., to solidify the C-line going forward), such as Anderson (because it's too early to bring up prospects that might make him redundant and that, in the meantime, it's better to keep him to help support then youngsters that are there), or such as Matheson (because he feels that a veteran on the left side with skill and leadership, as well as one on the right side in Savard are necessary to help the younger Ds develop, still), he's be in correct in his actions according to you, even if the logic was entirely defendable.

Still, either way, we don't know because he's not tipping his hand to other teams, that's for sure, so, let's wait it out a bit and see what gives, without praising him either, as you say...

 

[Sterling Archer]

Oh yeah, I heard it and it was definitely all over the place. And I'm not defending any of his choices. I was just clarifying that in the tweet of his that you quoted, I don't think he was saying they'll take Benson at 13. He is just showing that Pronman had now dropped Benson to 13 and it's starting the wild changes in lists we're about to see.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

I can't believe for the most historic franchise in the league, we are stuck with reporters like Brian Wilde, Eric Engels, Jack Todd etc.

Wilde is basically like a real life version of Brick Tamland from Anchorman.

Like 2/3 of the posters around here add more value than any of them, without getting paid for it.

Engels is good and there is a galaxy of difference between him and Wilde

 

[Habs Halifax]

Dubois (Oct-Dec):
* 40 pts with 16 goals in 37 games (1.08 pts/game)

Dubois (Jan-Mar 7th):
* 15 pts with 7 goals in 24 games (0.63 pts/game)

Dubois not interest in staying in Winnipeg and he's getting annoyed with management trying to convince him to stay?

 

[Scriptor]

This rant is great and all, but you completely, and I mean completely, missed my point. You certainly didn't read the first sentence.

My point was that the focus still needs to be on building. If you can get Dubois for something like the Florida 1st (assuming its not too high) and Anderson then its something you need to seriously consider. If the ask is Florida's 1st, Dach and Farrell, you don't, since you're giving up a lot and aren't getting cap relief, which is still an issue.

From everything I've read -- and there has been a lot on this thread -- about the subject of trading for Dubois, I thought this was clear eons ago, pretty much shared by any proponents of trading for Dubois.

There is a limit -- with building in mind -- to what should be given up for Dubois. Of course, there can be some difference of opinion between some posters as to what that limit is.

To all, I believe, Dach and Suzuki are off the table, as is Caufield, Guhle and Xhekaj.

But, to some, with a projected C-Line of Suzuki - Dubois - Dach - Evans, sacrificing Beck makes plenty of sense, perhaps?

But the sentiment that you mustn't give away the farm for Dubois is there, within reason.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Oh yeah, I heard it and it was definitely all over the place. And I'm not defending any of his choices. I was just clarifying that in the tweet of his that you quoted, I don't think he was saying they'll take Benson at 13. He is just showing that Pronman had now dropped Benson to 13 and it's starting the wild changes in lists we're about to see.

I think there is one big waive of talent after the top 4. Bob's list after the U18's is the one that is likely to be the closest to the truth.

Bedard
Fantilli, Carlsson
Michkov (Wild Card).
A waive of talent that is likely 2nd tier types.

 

[Scriptor]

Anybody notice that the Jets moved Connor to the Scheifele line over the last month? This was a move they made prior to Dubois's day/day injury. He's back now and Connor is still with Scheifele.

Consider this. Rick Bowness said before the season that he will do everything in his power to convince Dubois to stay and for most of the season, Connor was on his line. Then the report came out by Kypreos that Dubois is not changing his mind and shortly after, Connor was moved to the Scheifele line. I'm not a big fan of Kypreos but he does have connections.

Pay attention to the context. If you were the Jets GM, you would have started to talk with Brisson after the Holidays about an extension. They need to know one way or another cause they have two others to manage who need new contracts soon... Scheifele and Helle.

Dubois message stays consistent. I really feel for the Jets but it's their own problem cause they are the ones who intervened on when Dubois asked out of Columbus and traded Laine/Rost thinking they can extend him.

Clearly, moving Connor to Scheifele's line is an attempt at pleasing the veteran C with contract talks looming.

 

[Habs Halifax]

From everything I've read -- and there has been a lot on this thread -- about the subject of trading for Dubois, I thought this was clear eons ago, pretty much shared by any proponents of trading for Dubois.

There is a limit -- with building in mind -- to what should be given up for Dubois. Of course, there can be some difference of opinion between some posters as to what that limit is.

To all, I believe, Dach and Suzuki are off the table, as is Caufield, Guhle and Xhekaj.

But, to some, with a projected C-Line of Suzuki - Dubois - Dach - Evans, sacrificing Beck makes plenty of sense, perhaps?

But the sentiment that you mustn't give away the farm for Dubois is there, within reason.

Habs and Avs are the two front runners IMO. I can see Dubois considering the Avs as well. What do you think the Avs can offer as their best offer? Newhook, Girard, their 20+ 1st? Avs have to send a contract back to make the cap work IMO and Girard is likely. Wonder how the Jets would feel about that?

Jets will probably ask for Dach or Slaf and we laugh in their face. Beck could be one we spare. Imagine if Gorton/Hughes really make them upset and offer Anderson and Beck only? They ask for the Panthers pick and Hughes says, no deal. .

 

[Sterling Archer]

Dubois (Oct-Dec):
* 40 pts with 16 goals in 37 games (1.08 pts/game)

Dubois (Jan-Mar 7th):
* 15 pts with 7 goals in 24 games (0.63 pts/game)

Dubois not interest in staying in Winnipeg and he's getting annoyed with management trying to convince him to stay?

Might be more a function of trying to play through his injury. The better he plays, the more interest from outside of Winnipeg and better chance of not only leaving but getting paid. Doubt he’s producing less because he’s not motivated.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Clearly, moving Connor to Scheifele's line is an attempt at pleasing the veteran C with contract talks looming.

Yes, I believe so as well. First they tried to make Dubois happy but he keeps telling them the same thing. Ideally, they wanted Dubois to sign first and then the other two. Now they might know for sure Dubois will force his way to UFA and they have to focus on Scheifele. What do you think Scheifele thinks now? Imagine if he tells them that he wants to know their plan to replace Dubois first? . They could be forced into a rebuild.

My Wild Prediction? Dubois to the Habs and Scheifele to the Avs this summer. Jets don't want a 30+ core like the Flames and will build around Morrisey and Connor and recoup futures from the Avs and Habs.

Dubois and Scheifele returns:
* Panthers 1st and Avs 1st
* Newhook, Girard
* Gurianov, Edmundson, Dvorak
* Other B or B+ prospects. Beck maybe part of this.

 

[Captain Mountain]

From everything I've read -- and there has been a lot on this thread -- about the subject of trading for Dubois, I thought this was clear eons ago, pretty much shared by any proponents of trading for Dubois.

There is a limit -- with building in mind -- to what should be given up for Dubois. Of course, there can be some difference of opinion between some posters as to what that limit is.

To all, I believe, Dach and Suzuki are off the table, as is Caufield, Guhle and Xhekaj.

But, to some, with a projected C-Line of Suzuki - Dubois - Dach - Evans, sacrificing Beck makes plenty of sense, perhaps?

But the sentiment that you mustn't give away the farm for Dubois is there, within reason.

Literally every single point of conversation about Dubois has been repeated like 25 times. I've given up complaining about it.

The only thing that this thread generally misses is what the likely cost of Dubois would actually be (both in trade and a new contract). Because most of the common proposals on here don't really match the market comparables.