Trade Deadline - What do you see being done?

[Hellcat]

Did Marc Methot skip last year's playoffs? The team that won plays a high-possession game, isn't super heavy, and relies on analytics.

Kadri, MacKinnon, Landeskog, Manson, Compher (great forechecker) all play a heavier game than anyone on the Leafs (before the ROR trade). You got to be able to lean on other teams in the playoffs. Our roster is about as buttery soft as a roster comes and don't get me started on our D, Lilly is our most physical defender, our #6 D-man is our most physical D. Soft, soft, soft, soft. A team does not have to be monolithic, you can be a high possession team AND a heavy team at the same time. You can't be just a heavy team or just a high possession team. Colorado and TB were both, very balanced rosters.

 

[Notsince67]

Kadri, MacKinnon, Landeskog, Manson, Compher (great forechecker) all play a heavier game than anyone on the Leafs (before the ROR trade). You got to be able to lean on other teams in the playoffs. Our roster is about as buttery soft as a roster comes and don't get me started on our D, Lilly is our most physical defender, our #6 D-man is our most physical D. Soft, soft, soft, soft. A team does not have to be monolithic, you can be a high possession team AND a heavy team at the same time. You can't be just a heavy team or just a high possession team. Colorado and TB were both, very balanced rosters.

The average size and weight of Toronto and Tampa are almost identical. Tampa is a team full of cheapshot artists that play the line on penalties. This size thing is completely an overblown myth.

 

[notbias]

Kadri, MacKinnon, Landeskog, Manson, Compher (great forechecker) all play a heavier game than anyone on the Leafs (before the ROR trade). You got to be able to lean on other teams in the playoffs. Our roster is about as buttery soft as a roster comes and don't get me started on our D, Lilly is our most physical defender, our #6 D-man is our most physical D. Soft, soft, soft, soft. A team does not have to be monolithic, you can be a high possession team AND a heavy team at the same time. You can't be just a heavy team or just a high possession team. Colorado and TB were both, very balanced rosters.

Liljegren is our #6? What? It's Sandin. Our most physical D is Gio.

Colorado doesn't play heavy, and their D is also probably about as soft as ours.

Maybe defining heavy would help, because Colorado and Tampa are not big... and our team forechecks hard as well, so not sure what "heavy" means.

Colorado and Tampa have some big guys playing 10 mins a night, doubt they do too much. We can add Luke Schenn instead of Sandin and throw Clifford on 4th line LW and we are probably now a bigger team than either.

Last years playoffs

 

[Nineteen67]

Kadri, MacKinnon, Landeskog, Manson, Compher (great forechecker) all play a heavier game than anyone on the Leafs (before the ROR trade). You got to be able to lean on other teams in the playoffs. Our roster is about as buttery soft as a roster comes and don't get me started on our D, Lilly is our most physical defender, our #6 D-man is our most physical D. Soft, soft, soft, soft. A team does not have to be monolithic, you can be a high possession team AND a heavy team at the same time. You can't be just a heavy team or just a high possession team. Colorado and TB were both, very balanced rosters.

Engvall is heavy….literally…..but he doesn’t play heavy.

The average size and weight of Toronto and Tampa are almost identical. Tampa is a team full of cheapshot artists that play the line on penalties. This size thing is completely an overblown myth.

Cheapshots? That could be where you misunderstand the game.

 

[1specter]

Engvall is heavy….literally…..but he doesn’t play heavy.


Cheapshots? That could be where you misunderstand the game.

Kucherov and Sergachev are very dirty players who have had multiple incidents over the last few years. Kucherov has even been suspended.

 

[Notsince67]

Engvall is heavy….literally…..but he doesn’t play heavy.


Cheapshots? That could be where you misunderstand the game.

If you watched them play, you would understand this to be true but keep assuming I don't understand the game.

 

[Hellcat]

Liljegren is our #6? What? It's Sandin. Our most physical D is Gio.

Colorado doesn't play heavy, and their D is also probably about as soft as ours.

Maybe defining heavy would help, because Colorado and Tampa are not big... and our team forechecks hard as well, so not sure what "heavy" means.

Colorado and Tampa have some big guys playing 10 mins a night, doubt they do too much. We can add Luke Schenn instead of Sandin and throw Clifford on 4th line LW and we are probably now a bigger team than either.

Last years playoffs

View attachment 655841

Is Sandin injured right now or is he playing? If he's not playing he's not our #6. If you want to be pedantic, Lily is our #5 , does that materially change the point I was making? Nope.

Your definition of heavy and mine are clearly different. Playing heavy for me is making life difficult on the other team, it can be hitting, but its not only hitting. It's being dogs hunting a bone when getting the puck, winning 50/50 battles, crashing the net, keeping the other team playing D more than O, making the other team make mistakes is IMO all ways to play heavy. It's putting people on their assess when they come to the front of the net, it's sticking your nose in the dog pile to get the puck. It's second, third and fourth efforts to win your shift.

 

[1specter]

If you watched them play, you would understand this to be true but keep assuming I don't understand the game.

Just to add, this happened last night and went uncalled:



Fortunately, Tampa received some karma in the form of an uncalled hook on Stamkos by Lyubushkin, who then stripped the puck and took it all the way for a shorthanded goal Stammer also dove so he had it coming.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Liljegren is our #6? What? It's Sandin. Our most physical D is Gio.

Colorado doesn't play heavy, and their D is also probably about as soft as ours.

Maybe defining heavy would help, because Colorado and Tampa are not big... and our team forechecks hard as well, so not sure what "heavy" means.

Colorado and Tampa have some big guys playing 10 mins a night, doubt they do too much. We can add Luke Schenn instead of Sandin and throw Clifford on 4th line LW and we are probably now a bigger team than either.

Last years playoffs

View attachment 655841

Ah, the stats crew strikes again. Heaviness and grit can't be measured by just "hits". Is going aggressively to the front of the opponents net calculated as a hit? Is making sure the opponent can't stand in front off your net counted as a "hit"? Is going hard on the forecheck at all times and not giving your opponent any space counted as a "hit". Is not taking any BS from your opponent counted as a "hit"? Is standing up for your teammates counted as a "hit"?

This stuff isn't measured in Spreadsheet World™, and accounts for a large portion of a team that wins the Cup's success.

 

[Hellcat]

Engvall is heavy….literally…..but he doesn’t play heavy.


Cheapshots? That could be where you misunderstand the game.

I'm with you. Maroon, Perry are kinda dirty from time to time but to call the team dirty might be an overreaching statement

 

[Notsince67]

Just to add, this happened last night and went uncalled:



Fortunately, Tampa received some karma in the form of an uncalled hook on Stamkos by Lyubushkin, who then stripped the puck and took it all the way for a shorthanded goal Stammer also dove so he had it coming.

The whole soft as butter bs is a narrative generated by opposing team fans and digested by self proclaimed home fans who accept everything they hear as gospel. You don't need to look to far from the leafs own games to see what is happening.
I don't have a clip of Kucherov actually kicking marner but this vid should suffice to back up the dirty evidence.

 

[GoonieFace]

If you watched them play, you would understand this to be true but keep assuming I don't understand the game.

So basically players that everyone would love if they are on the Leafs.

 

[notbias]

Ah, the stats crew strikes again. Heaviness and grit can't be measured by just "hits". Is going aggressively to the front of the opponents net calculated as a hit? Is making sure the opponent can't stand in front off your net counted as a "hit"? Is going hard on the forecheck at all times and not giving your opponent any space counted as a "hit". Is not taking any BS from your opponent counted as a "hit"? Is standing up for your teammates counted as a "hit"?

This stuff isn't measured in Spreadsheet World™, and accounts for a large portion of a team that wins the Cup's success.

Pretty sure we rank around Col/Tampa in slot chances, blocked shots, hits, and takeaways.

Are there any stats you use or it is all just "trust me"?

 

[Notsince67]

So basically players that everyone would love if they are on the Leafs.

The players play as they are permitted by the coach and the refs. These players would not be doing this to a huge degree if they were on the leafs.

 

[1specter]

So basically players that everyone would love if they are on the Leafs.

george parros would ban them from the NHL if they did that as Leafs

 

[GoonieFace]

george parros would ban them from the NHL if they did that as Leafs

This is such a cop out. There is not some huge conspiracy against the them.

 

[1specter]

This is such a cop out. There is not some huge conspiracy against the them.

It's not a conspiracy, reputation of teams plays a factor and i'm not sure why you think otherwise - it's even been proven that game management actively takes place and teams that take calls also draw the most calls. Perfect example is the Bruins who built up a culture of being a 'hard-nosed gritty team' that toe the line around the league, and they've gotten far more lenience.



Tell me why this did not only NOT receive a suspension, but not even a f***ing penalty. Chara was fined 5K, that was it. And this was not the first time, he sucker punched JT in the back of the head in the playoffs, there was the whole Pacioretty incident, etc. This was also after Kadri got suspended for his hit to DeBrusk, and this was arguably worse as it was so blatant from Chara to the point where he even mocked Gallagher for snapping his head back. Why is a 6'9" ogre d-man using his stick to hit a guy who is at best 5'9 in the face? Please do explain.

Marchand also gets away with stuff all the time, various slewfoots etc that go uncalled. To act like there isn't different standards for different teams is pure ignorance.

 

[Hellcat]

The whole soft as butter bs is a narrative generated by opposing team fans and digested by self proclaimed home fans who accept everything they hear as gospel. You don't need to look to far from the leafs own games to see what is happening.
I don't have a clip of Kucherov actually kicking marner but this vid should suffice to back up the dirty evidence.

One incident does not make you a dirty player, if occasionally crossing the line makes you dirt, every player is dirty because even if you are a choir boy, everyone who has played the game has done something dirty at one time or the other. When I played the game, I was dirty as F, my goal was to make you hurt every time I was on the ice. If you had the puck, you got chopped like a tree or pasted into the boards, if you were trailing the play behind the ref, I'd chop you in the calves or ankles. Not sure that is Kucherov's goal every time he is on the ice.

If you believe that this Leafs team is not soft, I wont try to convince you otherwise.

 

[Notsince67]

This is such a cop out. There is not some huge conspiracy against the them.

Conspiracy no...but there actually has been a lot of evidence to show both officiating and disciplinary bias against the leafs, if you have been paying attention. The lack of penalties drawn by Matthews has been talked about extensively in the past, for example.

Every top possession team excluding the leafs get among the highest powerplay opportunities. This is a fact.

One incident does not make you a dirty player, if occasionally crossing the line makes you dirt, every player is dirty because even if you are a choir boy, everyone who has played the game has done something dirty at one time or the other. When I played the game, I was dirty as F, my goal was to make you hurt every time I was on the ice. If you had the puck, you got chopped like a tree or pasted into the boards, if you were trailing the play behind the ref, I'd chop you in the calves or ankles. Not sure that is Kucherov's goal every time he is on the ice.

If you believe that this Leafs team is not soft, I wont try to convince you otherwise.

Perhaps you should look at your own biases. Characterizing Maroon, Perry as occasionally dirty when they are among the top of the league dirty is pretty funny. Heck...if there was a hockey hall of fame for dirty, Perry is headed there on a first ballot.

 

[Nineteen67]

Kucherov and Sergachev are very dirty players who have had multiple incidents over the last few years. Kucherov has even been suspended.

Absolutely. Don’t forget Brayden Point.

If you watched them play, you would understand this to be true but keep assuming I don't understand the game.

I watched them play and was the first on this board to point out they were mean as snakes.

 

[Notsince67]

Absolutely. Don’t forget Brayden Point.


I watched them play and was the first on this board to point out they were mean as snakes.

I agree with mean. Clearly mean doesn't mean heavy

 

[Nineteen67]

I'm with you. Maroon, Perry are kinda dirty from time to time but to call the team dirty might be an overreaching statement

They play hard and with emotion.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Focus on a vet goalie (we can't go into the playoffs with these 2), and a d-man or 2. Schenn may be a decent fit for depth and some snarl

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Pretty sure we rank around Col/Tampa in slot chances, blocked shots, hits, and takeaways.

Are there any stats you use or it is all just "trust me"?

And right on cue, Spreadsheet World™ proves my point.

 

[Hellcat]

Perhaps you should look at your own biases. Characterizing Maroon, Perry as occasionally dirty when they are among the top of the league dirty is pretty funny. Heck...if there was a hockey hall of fame for dirty, Perry is headed there on a first ballot.

What I said was accurate, occasionally dirty. Are they dirty on every shift? No, are they dirty 50% of the shifts? Probably not. Less than half the time would in my books fit the occasionally dirty bucket. Selling the narrative that Kucherov is dirty is a stretch at best.