Trade and Free Agency Thread - 2021/22 - Post Deadline

[Kurtz]

Man you guys are either severely overrating JT or severely underrating Kawhi.

A healthy Kawhi is a top 5 NBA player. A healthy JT Miller is a top 15ish NHL forward.

A Kawhi trade for the Leafs would be like Nylander for Cale Makar or Morgan Rielly for Igor Shesterkin.

Yeap. I was thinking like Nylander for Crosby as a good comparable.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I give Dubas credit for graduating Gauthier but Johnsson/Dermott/Kapanen were part of the playoff roster in 17/18. Nylander I’m not giving Dubas credit for. I understand if you do. Personally I liked Moore and he was on a sweetheart contract which would have been perfect for this team. Marchment was just a miss by this management team and he only received 4 games.

Well I was just referring to former Marlies on the roster. If we are talking about guys who Dubas graduated, there were no prospects to graduate. The ones we can graduate are coming up now. Liljegren, Sandin, Steeves, Anderson, etc. We drafted a lot of guys who were complete busts before Dubas took over and now we are having to turn to creative methods to fill that void, which Dubas has done well (Mikheyev, Kampf, Bunting, Kase, etc.).

And as someone who watched Marchment play on the Marlies for 2.5 years, there wasn't much to miss. He provides no defensive value. He wasn't consistently physical. He wasn't consistent offensively. He was a 'meh' skater at best at the AHL level. There was nothing he provided which would have made him valuable in Toronto's system... And guys like Engvall, Kapanen, Johnsson, Moore, etc. passed over him because they learned how to PK, and were far more consistent in bringing value to various situations to the game. Most of Marchment's value was being an AHL version of Nick Ritchie.

Perhaps Florida's system is just a better fit for him, or he had one randomly good year in a contract year and he will turn back into a pumpkin next year (just like he did last year after a hot stretch to start the season). You would have to bet he maintains his 15% shooting percentage, and I wouldn't take that bet. He was a complete long shot that hit. It happens. It is hardly anything Dubas or anyone else in Leafs management is going to lose sleep over, because they'd make that type of trade again and again, and there is nothing to really learn from it other that 1/100 is not 0/100... And our playoff success is more than indicative of that as it is.

 

[Knies iT]

And as someone who watched Marchment play on the Marlies for 2.5 years, there wasn't much to miss. He provides no defensive value. He wasn't consistently physical. He wasn't consistent offensively. He was a 'meh' skater at best at the AHL level. There was nothing he provided which would have made him valuable in Toronto's system... And guys like Engvall, Kapanen, Johnsson, Moore, etc. passed over him because they learned how to PK, and were far more consistent in bringing value to various situations to the game. Most of Marchment's value was being an AHL version of Nick Ritchie.

Perhaps Florida's system is just a better fit for him, or he had one randomly good year in a contract year and he will turn back into a pumpkin next year (just like he did last year after a hot stretch to start the season). You would have to bet he maintains his 15% shooting percentage, and I wouldn't take that bet. He was a complete long shot that hit. It happens. It is hardly anything Dubas or anyone else in Leafs management is going to lose sleep over, because they'd make that type of trade again and again, and there is nothing to really learn from it other that 1/100 is not 0/100... And our playoff success is more than indicative of that as it is.

Interesting way of describing his game. I saw it differently:

Recalled/Assigned: - Leafs recall Mason Marchment

Prepping for a Timashov trade.. I like Timashov. It's too bad if it's true that he wants out. He's a perfect little energy guy

hfboards.mandatory.com

There was a lot to like about his play style before he played a single NHL game and yes, there was a lot he could have offered to the bottom six. He always brought selective physicality in the same way that Kadri did; doesn't finish every check, but when he does, he wrecks you.

Sounds like a big undersell of his offensive game and skill. He has a nasty wrist shot and always has, but even if you chop his production in half, it's better than what we get from the 4th line, of which is a defensive tire fire. Complete rush job after investing in his development.

 

[Rude Dog]

I know it's Dangle but he has some connections and his source says Leafs are comsidering removing Dubas. I think thats the dumbest thing they can do, but could happen. If thats true, Keefe is right there too and Shanny is probably next to be gone. The way this could go and lot of people are going to miss this management group.

That would be a leaf thing to do. Dubas should be back despite his detractors.

 

[Buds17]

The ony Kawhi trade equivalent is definitely something like Nylander+ for JT Miller. Super short sighted move as Miller is a UFA next season and the leafs will almost certainly not be able to re-sign him. It would make the team better though as an all-in move.

That's a lot of what makes any such trade a Kawhi equivalent. The Raptors traded away contract certainty for potentially short term upgrades on the court. The deal is fondly remembered since the team won the championship. The move isn't nearly as well regarded if the team falls short and both players end up walking (which they of course did).

 

[BertCorbeau]

That would be a leaf thing to do. Dubas should be back despite his detractors.

I would agree. Dubas has done a good job building depth around the core, especially on D.

That being said if he

a) continues to believe in the core
b) cannot secure stable goaltending

Those are big areas of concern. Friedman mentioned a potential core shakeup and I believe at this point you have to do that. But in a smart way.

At the same time Dubas needs to secure a goaltender. It's not easy though as goalies are generally voodoo.

 

[SoftDumpNtheCorner88]

Realistically, what could we get for Nylander?

 

[I am Canadian]

Alright, I went crazy here. Tell me I'm stupid. Started making random trades and I'm here

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Interesting way of describing his game. I saw it differently:

Recalled/Assigned: - Leafs recall Mason Marchment

Prepping for a Timashov trade.. I like Timashov. It's too bad if it's true that he wants out. He's a perfect little energy guy

hfboards.mandatory.com

There was a lot to like about his play style before he played a single NHL game and yes, there was a lot he could have offered to the bottom six. He always brought selective physicality in the same way that Kadri did; doesn't finish every check, but when he does, he wrecks you.

Sounds like a big undersell of his offensive game and skill. He has a nasty wrist shot and always has, but even if you chop his production in half, it's better than what we get from the 4th line, of which is a defensive tire fire. Complete rush job after investing in his development.

His wrist shot wasn't that great. He scored a lot of goals, like you said in your post, from in front of the net. His wrist shot was worse than Engvall's, and we aren't exactly seeing Engvall snipe on goalies in the NHL too often either.

I said he could be a Matt Martin if he was more consistent with his physicality. Maybe Nick Ritchie is more of an effective comparable. Ritchie is not a guy who runs around hitting guys either but he does "wreck" people when he does decide to hit people. However I would rather he win more puck battles and find ways to use his body more consistently than occasionally wreck people. He could score from outside on occasion, but most of his goals came from right in front of the net and cleaning up garbage, and for that being his best quality, he didn't exactly score an abnormal amount of goals from that area either.

I guess he could replace what Simmonds or Clifford brought to the table, assuming once again that he was more consistent with his physicality, but I think there is an argument to be made that Simmonds and Clifford are not exactly good enough to be in our lineups either, and they at least bring a veteran presence/experience that Marchment did not have.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Alright, I went crazy here. Tell me I'm stupid. Started making random trades and I'm here
View attachment 548134

2nd pairing is awful. Defensive depth is awful. Bottom 6 is really questionable too. And I have no idea how many picks you are moving but I already know you moved Sandin to get this lineup to work.

I would agree. Dubas has done a good job building depth around the core, especially on D.

That being said if he

a) continues to believe in the core
b) cannot secure stable goaltending

Those are big areas of concern. Friedman mentioned a potential core shakeup and I believe at this point you have to do that. But in a smart way.

At the same time Dubas needs to secure a goaltender. It's not easy though as goalies are generally voodoo.

Kuemper will likely be a target, or he may look at Blackwood/Hellebuyck/Varlamov for Mrazek+. Maybe even a combination of sorts.

No idea if he has interest in Husso at all.

 

[stickty111]

2nd pairing is awful. Defensive depth is awful. Bottom 6 is really questionable too. And I have no idea how many picks you are moving but I already know you moved Sandin to get this lineup to work.



Kuemper will likely be a target, or he may look at Blackwood/Hellebuyck/Varlamov for Mrazek+. Maybe even a combination of sorts.

No idea if he has interest in Husso at all.

Helle would bw the big move if he wants. Unlikely for number of reasons but it's an option.
Have to think they look at Kuemper since we have really liked him fir a while

 

[BertCorbeau]

Helle would bw the big move if he wants. Unlikely for number of reasons but it's an option.
Have to think they look at Kuemper since we have really liked him fir a while

Kuemper is 32 though and coming off a good season ... especially of the Av's win the cup.

Mind you he's a UFA .. Helle's price would be interesting. Perhaps buying low?

 

[Martin Skoula]

I think I'm apathetic to a Dubas firing.

On one hand, I think I would appreciate a new fresh management team taking the ax to the group and just cashing in valuable assets in pursuit of a brand new vision and fresh start.

On the other hand, I think we would be firing him today for errors he committed learning on the job, specifically the brutal 2019-20 Leafs. He's done pretty well building a strong regular season team, but it feels like because of the cap he's been spending the past 2.5 years making bets and churning roster year to year than building a great top to bottom program. Like if you need your $1.6 million Money Ball goalie to out duel a $9.5 million best goalie of his generation, your odds of winning are just very long.

Both options suck honestly. Whether it's Dubas or a new guy they're under pressure to make a big move and unlikely to be in the driver's seat of that deal.

 

[OVO16]

Some of you truly don't have a clue about Basketball/NBA if you think JT Miller is comparable to Kawhi Leonard LMAOOOOOOO

Kawhi is a top 5 player in the league. A superstar who's going to be in the Hall of fame.

Comparable for Kawhi Leonard is a Kucherov, Ovechkin, Crosby, etc... lol

 

[TheRumble]

Some of you truly don't have a clue about Basketball/NBA if you think JT Miller is comparable to Kawhi Leonard LMAOOOOOOO

Kawhi is a top 5 player in the league. A superstar who's going to be in the Hall of fame.

Comparable for Kawhi Leonard is a Kucherov, Ovechkin, Crosby, etc... lol

Pretty much said the same thing but a Nylander for JT Miller trade would be like if the Raptors traded Demar Derozan in 2019 for Donavan Mitchell or Zach Lavine.

It's debatable who is better but the improvement is not enough to put you over the top.

Honestly what the Leafs need is for the second generation of prospects to start baring fruit now as depth players. The stars all showed up to play this year and delivered.

Robertson, Knies, Abramov, Niemala Abruzzese etc. have to step in and step up.

The Leafs have had inconsistent performances from their stars in the playoffs over the years. This is the first year they all delivered at the same time but the depth was not there. Most of that depth will be priced out in the next two seasons or will be past their athletic prime which means we will be relying on that second generation soon.

 

[Kiwi]

Realistically, what could we get for Nylander?

He's a PPG forward making around 7M with 2 years term still left on his deal, I'd say his value is pretty bloody good but I seriously doubt you're getting a player better than him back in a trade

 

[Dreakmur]

Pretty much said the same thing but a Nylander for JT Miller trade would be like if the Raptors traded Demar Derozan in 2019 for Donavan Mitchell or Zach Lavine.

It's debatable who is better but the improvement is not enough to put you over the top.

Honestly what the Leafs need is for the second generation of prospects to start baring fruit now as depth players. The stars all showed up to play this year and delivered.

Robertson, Knies, Abramov, Niemala Abruzzese etc. have to step in and step up.

The Leafs have had inconsistent performances from their stars in the playoffs over the years. This is the first year they all delivered at the same time but the depth was not there. Most of that depth will be priced out in the next two seasons or will be past their athletic prime which means we will be relying on that second generation soon.

Robertson, Abamov and Abruzzese are just more of what the team doesn't need. Soft skill doesn't work in the bottom of the lineup.

 

[SnizzNasty88]

Isn't he still unvaccinated.

But yeah he's the type of player the Leafs badly need

Who gives a flying fu** if he is. If anything, that makes my interest in trading for the player way higher

 

[BayStBullies]

Who gives a flying fucck if he is. If anything, that makes my interest in trading for the player way higher

Why would that make your interest higher? Being selfish isn't usually good for a locker room.

 

[deprw]

I would agree. Dubas has done a good job building depth around the core, especially on D.

That being said if he

a) continues to believe in the core
b) cannot secure stable goaltending

Those are big areas of concern. Friedman mentioned a potential core shakeup and I believe at this point you have to do that. But in a smart way.

At the same time Dubas needs to secure a goaltender. It's not easy though as goalies are generally voodoo.

I second this. We have snatched every possible experienced and physical defender from the market, when there was opportunity. How he fixed our defense is good example of fine GM. Acquiring top4 defenders is damn hard as is getting great goalie.

We have to be smart it isn't far fetched that with one lucky bounce we would be preparing for second round. You have to remember that Matthews and Marner are learning every year. After last season everyone was trading Marner, you don't want to trade away anything too special, but it's clear that we have to move something and gain as much value back. Running this same team might make it next year, you'd have to do minimal changes though. Could keep core intact and make it to finals.

Though I wouldn't do that, but the question is how we can acquire that number one goalie and build up strong third line that we can rely on. Is Liljegren or Sandin ready to be bottom pairing in playoffs next year and if so should we go for upgrade on Muzzin or Brodie.

Decision on Shanahan and Dubas can change outcome of next 5 to 10 years and it can be also change to worse. I think Chiarelli destroyed the future of Edmonton Oilers and he was "the experienced guy that was brought in to build a winning team". He forced some moves and lost tons of value and now Edmonton is on no mans land even if they advanced to second round.

 

[mapleleafs34]

Why would that make your interest higher? Being selfish isn't usually good for a locker room.

Selfish? It's called freedom of choice. I'd love Bertuzzi on the Leafs.

 

[SprDaVE]

Selfish? It's called freedom of choice. I'd love Bertuzzi on the Leafs.

Freedom of choices doesn't mean freedom of consequences. Those consequences are seen as selfish and irresponsible.

Who the hell knows what's going to happen in the future. Right now it doesn't seem like a big deal but if travelling is restricted and things pop up again, he might be a player that can barely play. That's a tough pill to swallow if you're going to give up a lot for a player.

On paper Bertuzzi would be a good fit and there's a reason the Leafs have been linked to him heavily before the pandemic. He's a good player. But just like E. Kane and bunch of other players, sometimes the baggage just isn't worth it long-term.

 

[Americanadian]

I don't see Nylander going to detroit for Bertuzzi - they have no need for him before he hits UFA. They would probably want local boy Robertson and a 1st. If I'm the Leafs I'd be weary of Detroit offer sheeting one of Sandin or Liljegren. Either of them could be had for a 2nd if Detroit offers them 3.5-4M/year.

 

[mapleleafs34]

Freedom of choices doesn't mean freedom of consequences. Those consequences are seen as selfish and irresponsible.

Who the hell knows what's going to happen in the future. Right now it doesn't seem like a big deal but if travelling is restricted and things pop up again, he might be a player that can barely play. That's a tough pill to swallow if you're going to give up a lot for a player.

On paper Bertuzzi would be a good fit and there's a reason the Leafs have been linked to him heavily before the pandemic. He's a good player. But just like E. Kane and bunch of other players, sometimes the baggage just isn't worth it long-term.

Fair points. But sometimes the risk of baggage is worth it. I don't think EDM is regretting the "baggage" they took a chance on with E.Kane.

 

[SprDaVE]

I don't see Nylander going to detroit for Bertuzzi - they have no need for him before he hits UFA. They would probably want local boy Robertson and a 1st. If I'm the Leafs I'd be weary of Detroit offer sheeting one of Sandin or Liljegren. Either of them could be had for a 2nd if Detroit offers them 3.5-4M/year.

Hey if they want to give out 4M to Liljegren or Sandin, that's perfectly fine.

I'd gamble 7-8 years x 4M for Liljegren though right now. Not sure I would on Sandin.