GDT: Trade and Free Agency Thread - 2021/22 PART VII

[dubplatepressure]

I know you're right but man that leaves an empty pit in my stomach when I read it. Personally I don't think this team built to play in the playoffs. The thought of trading away the future for a pipe dream, just makes me sick.

IMO the Leafs trading the future for the now is equal to putting a new coat of paint on a house with no insulation and expecting it to keep you warm in the winter.

We need players that can create space for our top 2 lines, we don't have that. We need some stay at home dmen that can play on the 2nd pairing when Muzzin gets hurt, not if, but when. With that said this is the best group of bottom 6 complimentary players we have ever had. Florida, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Pitts and Washington are all really really really good teams. I think we can beat one of them, but to play 3 rounds vs potentially teams that good. I'm not sure if we got the players who can make life hard on our opponents for 3 rounds. If we got out of the East there is only one team in the West that concerns me.

IMO this is the closest we’ve been in 20 years to a contender. It makes sense to move futures for win-now help. It just needs to be the right moves.

 

[TMLAM34]

Per CF, McLeod has this year and next at .975K. An RFA at the end of term. Given his roll and production, yes, I think he would be a manageable salary, certainly through a qualifying offer giving us 2 more years of control. Cost? I don't know, but I'd guess a player of similar value + an asset, value to be determined. For example: Engvall + 3rd round pick...not trying to be specific, it would likely be a different scenario as Engvall is a UFA this year, but I hope you get me drift.

Engvall to McLeod doesn’t really move the needle much if at all. Dermott and a later pick in the 2023 draft would probably get it done if Dermott alone doesn’t. New Jersey’s defence is a disaster.

 

[meefer]

Our (apparent, not yet born fruit) ability to land good players outside of the first was already mentioned, but another thing mitigate the harm to our pipeline is recruitment and UDFA's. We've shown a strong ability to not only land big fish, but have a decent hit rate.

2019- Mikheyev, Duszak, Kivihalme - one strong middle-six forward,
2020-Barabanov, Lehtonen - another .5 point per game middle 6 wing (admittedly buried by our depth, found a home elsewhere and succeeded immediately
2021- Semyonov, Steeves, Gogolev, Kressler - 1 top prospect that has already earned games, a couple of projects.

If we're drafting in the 20's, it's arguable that we've been pulling a 1st rounder (or at least a 2nd) out of recruiting every off season

The thing that has hurt us the most is the years of wasted drafting between the Kadri and Rielly years. Had we competent drafting and development abilities between 2009-13, a 2nd/3rd/4th round drafted player of merit should have emerged. That strong, capable 2nd D or 2nd/3rd line F would already be in place and we wouldn't have to search for that player(s). JFK, Burke, Nonis just screwed us if you consider what we have to work with today.

 

[meefer]

Engvall to McLeod doesn’t really move the needle much if at all. Dermott and a later pick in the 2023 draft would probably get it done if Dermott alone doesn’t. New Jersey’s defence is a disaster.

Why do you say this?

 

[LeafSteel]

I want good trades!

Fixed it for you…..

 

[ToneDog]

The thing that has hurt us the most is the years of wasted drafting between the Kadri and Rielly years. Had we competent drafting and development abilities between 2009-13, a 2nd/3rd/4th round drafted player of merit should have emerged. That strong, capable 2nd D or 2nd/3rd line F would already be in place and we wouldn't have to search for that player(s). JFK, Burke, Nonis just screwed us if you consider what we have to work with today.

You can add Hunter to that list. Passes on Debrincat for Korshkov and trades down with Konecky there for the taking. Even after that mistake, he takes Dermott over Aho. Sigh.

 

[meefer]

You can add Hunter to that list. Passes on Debrincat for Korshkov and trades down with Konecky there for the taking. Even after that mistake, he takes Dermott over Aho. Sigh.

Fair point, Hunter's drafting record did not turn out to be stellar.

 

[4thline]

The thing that has hurt us the most is the years of wasted drafting between the Kadri and Rielly years. Had we competent drafting and development abilities between 2009-13, a 2nd/3rd/4th round drafted player of merit should have emerged. That strong, capable 2nd D or 2nd/3rd line F would already be in place and we wouldn't have to search for that player(s). JFK, Burke, Nonis just screwed us if you consider what we have to work with today.

Burke just absolutely wrecked us with his 09 and 11 drafts
09- 50/58/68 gets us Ryan/Blacker/Devane
11- 25/30/39 gets us Biggs/Percy

Picked between 50 and 73 of 09
Dumoulin, Tatar, Orlov, Barrie, McNabb, Smith

Picked between 25 and 44 of 11
Danault/Namestnikov/Rackell/Mayfield/Jenner/Gibson/Saad

Out of 24 players selected in those ranges 13 became middle 6 or better long term NHLer's, we got nothin when we should have had 2-4 of them.

 

[Morgs]

Engvall is a significantly better player than McLeod. I thought people were finally seeing it this year zzz

 

[ShameOnYouZidlicky]

Trade for Crouse and Manson

Bunting Matthews Nylander
Crouse Tavares Marner
Mikheyev Kerfoot Kase
Engvall/Simmonds Kampf Spezza/Simmonds

Rielly Brodie
Sandin Manson
Muzzin Liljegren
Dermott/Holl

Campbell
Mrazek

Thats a Stanley cup winning team

 

[meefer]

Engvall is a significantly better player than McLeod. I thought people were finally seeing it this year zzz

In what ways? I'm not anti-Engvall, but what does he bring to the table that is substantially better than McLeod? McLeod is significantly better at face-offs, plays the PK as does Pierre while offering a much better chance of winning the puck if dropped in our zone, is nowhere near as physical, both are great skaters, both lack finishing, both are decent 4th line players, Engvall maybe offering a better 3rd line option, but is duplicated by Mikheyev, while McLeod is more the natural center. What am I missing, please? While being cheaper and controlled (edit)

 

[Bluelines]

IMO this is the closest we’ve been in 20 years to a contender. It makes sense to move futures for win-now help. It just needs to be the right moves.

I don't disagree we are a contender. Honestly ask yourself what player would put us over the top in terms of being a favorite vs TB, Fla or Carolina? This is not a we cant win so why try question. This is a, are we better off keeping our 1st and drafting or better off trading our 1st? I've never been of the mindset that just because something has always been done a certain way, you have to continue. Just because teams make trades at the TDL does not mean we have to follow that practice. I'm thinking to myself, we have one of top 5 best centers in the league, 2 of the top 10 centers in the league. One of the best if not the best playmaker in the league. The best combined PK/PP. The best goalie over the last two calendar years, if you exclude Jan ... A pretty sold defense core. Pretty solid 3rd line. Who is that guy that we can trade for with our limited assets and limited cap that will make a difference on the lineup? or do we just have faith in the players we have, grab some cheap injury replacement players, draft a low 1st and hope in the long run that works out? I'm biased towards holding tight and going with the girl who brought you to the show.

 

[Morgs]

In what ways? I'm not anti-Engvall, but what does he bring to the table that is substantially better than McLeod? McLeod is significantly better at face-offs, plays the PK as does Pierre while offering a much better chance of winning the puck if dropped in our zone, is nowhere near as physical, both are great skaters, both lack finishing, both are decent 4th line players, Engvall maybe offering a better 3rd line option, but is duplicated by Mikheyev, while McLeod is more the natural center. What am I missing, please? While being cheaper and controlled (edit)

Much [much] better defensively, drives offense better, better in transition. They're both sneaky decent scorers (based on minutes/linemates), but Engvall is the engine that gets both the 3rd and 4th line going depending on which one he's on.

 

[aingefan]

I want trades!

Common trades!

 

[meefer]

Much [much] better defensively, drives offense better, better in transition. They're both sneaky decent scorers (based on minutes/linemates), but Engvall is the engine that gets both the 3rd and 4th line going depending on which one he's on.

Thanks for the response. I agree his transition game may be better, I don't know as I don't watch enough of NJ, but I do question whether one can say Engvall drives offense. Does Engvall's 44 points in 134 games scream driving offense? Compared to McLeod's pedestrian 34 points in 131 games? At a .275K premium, less the physicality and controllability? If McLeod were to assume 4C and provide an upgrade to Spezza (which isn't difficult) is the difference better for the team than having Engvall at 4LW and Spezz at 4C with Simmons on 4LW, than compared to McLeod at 4C working with Spezz and Simmons at 4RW with Ritchie/Clifford/Robertson at 4LW?

 

[showtime8]

Engvall is a significantly better player than McLeod. I thought people were finally seeing it this year zzz

Engvall on the 4th line gives the Leafs a big mismatch. He is a very good player, but I'm not sure he makes the difference in the playoffs.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Man people talking about Hagel’s career shooting percentage and his shooting percentage this year, do you realize this is only his second NHL season? Lol

So you think shooting at 20% this year isn't anything of note?

 

[PROUD PAPA]

If he's actually available and we could somehow make it work, Hampus Lindholm is the guy to get. He opens the potential D pairings to any number of combinations and puts our D on par with anyone. He'd be expensive but he could be the difference.

 

[Stephen]

Nylander suffers from what I call Nazem Kadri contract syndrome. It’s when a player plays to his contract not his capability. Nylander is good enough to score 90 points IMHO.

I think Nylander has the raw ability to be an 80-90 point guy if he had a more consistent, mature approach. And then if he had a more consistent approach he could probably do it more than one year and be a Markus Naslund type superstar. But that fall off from peak play to average games is always his issue.

Honestly, it wasn’t obvious Kadri ever had this kind of season in him this late in his career. I remember him saying he wanted to be like Tavares and that just seemed far fetched.

 

[nobody]

Trade for Crouse and Manson

Bunting Matthews Nylander
Crouse Tavares Marner
Mikheyev Kerfoot Kase
Engvall/Simmonds Kampf Spezza/Simmonds

Rielly Brodie
Sandin Manson
Muzzin Liljegren
Dermott/Holl

Campbell
Mrazek

Thats a Stanley cup winning team

While I would gladly take either player, the asking price for both is going to be a 1st and a good prospect. Both guys will need new contracts at the end of the season too. Not sure if paying 2 1sts + prospects is worth it for guys who we might not be able to afford to resign.

 

[Morgs]

Thanks for the response. I agree his transition game may be better, I don't know as I don't watch enough of NJ, but I do question whether one can say Engvall drives offense. Does Engvall's 44 points in 134 games scream driving offense? Compared to McLeod's pedestrian 34 points in 131 games? At a .275K premium, less the physicality and controllability? If McLeod were to assume 4C and provide an upgrade to Spezza (which isn't difficult) is the difference better for the team than having Engvall at 4LW and Spezz at 4C with Simmons on 4LW, than compared to McLeod at 4C working with Spezz and Simmons at 4RW with Ritchie/Clifford/Robertson at 4LW?

Driving offense as in "chances". His points are more suspect than what he actually provides due to two things (and I'd imagine it's similar with McLeod),

a) His linemates don't bury nearly as much as they should based on the chances he provides (lack of skill or guys playing in the bottom-6 tend to have worse finishing ability)
b) His minutes/game makes P/60 a better jusgement of his production than PPG would. Based on his P/60 at ES he's ranked 206th, aka right in the middle of 3rd line production. McLeod ranks 298th in the same stat, aka high end 4th line production.

 

[nobody]

I think Nylander has the raw ability to be an 80-90 point guy if he had a more consistent, mature approach. And then if he had a more consistent approach he could probably do it more than one year and be a Markus Naslund type superstar. But that fall off from peak play to average games is always his issue.

Honestly, it wasn’t obvious Kadri ever had this kind of season in him this late in his career. I remember him saying he wanted to be like Tavares and that just seemed far fetched.

Willy needs to be a play driver to reach his max potential. With JT and behind Matthews/Marner, he's a 3rd/4th wheel and just fades into the background too much. If he realizes that he can absolutely be a menace on top of what Matthews/Marner do, we'd be unstoppable. But we very rarely have both of those lines clicking at the same time.

 

[Stephen]

So you think shooting at 20% this year isn't anything of note?

I’ve seen a 1st round pick attached to a Brandon Hagel trade proposal from Leafs Nation. That seems kind of wrong in the sense you’re buying high on what might be outlier numbers. Gotta ask yourself if this was sustainable why is he available from Chicago at all and not an emerging untouchable? I get people are trying to find another Bunting. But part of what makes Bunting so unique is he’s cheap. And didn’t cost the Leafs anything to acquire.

 

[mydnyte]

But if we have the best defence in the league and are an elite team why would we need anyone?

because when they toss out the rule book in the playoffs, our soft players get manhandled on a per shift basis, and Simmonds can only deter so much playing 4-6 mins and then Muzzin gets hurt again.

 

[Morgs]

Engvall on the 4th line gives the Leafs a big mismatch. He is a very good player, but I'm not sure he makes the difference in the playoffs.

He's a borderline elite defensive player that can chip in offense at a 3rd line rate. How could that not make a difference in the playoffs?