Trade and Free Agency Discussion Thread - Don't Expect More Augmenting

[Buds17]

Because I'm bored.

To Toronto: Toews (50% retained)
To Chicago: Kerfoot, Holl, Sandin, 1st and 2nd in '21 (I'd add another pick to this if needed)

Mikheyev Matthews Marner
Nylander Tavares Hyman
Vesey Toews Simmonds
Barabanov Thornton Spezza
Robertson Engvall Anderson/Boyd

Rielly Brodie
Muzzin Dermott/Lehtonen
D/L Bogosian
Rosen/Liljegren/Marincin/???

The price would obviously be high for Chicago to retain the amount they would be for the three seasons. I'd understand Toews wanting to go to a contender. Would he waive to drop all the way down to 3C though for that opportunity? As much as the move fortifies the Leafs at centre - and it very much does that - it appears to also take away perhaps too much from the blueline going forward (Lehtonen and Bogosian would be UFAs, etc.) Of course, if the end result is a Cup...

 

[Martin Skoula]

The price would obviously be high for Chicago to retain the amount they would be for the three seasons. I'd understand Toews wanting to go to a contender. Would he waive to drop all the way down to 3C though for that opportunity? As much as the move fortifies the Leafs at centre - and it very much does that - it appears to also take away perhaps too much from the blueline going forward (Lehtonen and Bogosian would be UFAs, etc.) Of course, if the end result is a Cup...

The only way I can see it making sense is if the plan is to rent Towes at 50% for a one-time all-in run, and then sell him to someone in the offseason at 25% for a haul bigger than we gave up.

 

[meefer]

You're giving up more than half of our tradeable assets for a guy who would be playing 15 minutes a night with Vesey and Simmonds. In those 15 minutes a night with those wingers, how many more goals does Towes score/prevent over Kerfoot? Maybe a net +5-10 goals on the year?

Our 3C has a very low ceiling, your best case is that whoever it is can play some PK minutes and fill in on PP2 sometimes while going even at even strength. Towes can do that but so can Kerfoot and a handful of still unsigned UFAs like Soderberg/Haula.

This is killing a fly with a shotgun, you can get someone who can do 99% of the job 2020 Towes can in those minutes for less than the biggest trade return since the salary cap.

By all means, suggest the player who is currently available (I believe Toews may be available given Chicago's intent) who: a) is as good defensively, b) has the ability to score at his rate, c) brings his pedigree, and d) supports the C position with such clarity should injuries occur.

I accept that Toews is a 'all in' proposition. One can argue against it. No worries. But, he does provide the team a level of competency and depth we've cried out for. I am suggesting he might be the quality of player at 3C is superior to what we have, while possessing the talent to improve those around him, thus making our 4 lines the envy of the league. All while not affecting our cap hit. Of course, our depth and future prospect pool is affected. You have to decide which is of more concern.

 

[meefer]

The price would obviously be high for Chicago to retain the amount they would be for the three seasons. I'd understand Toews wanting to go to a contender. Would he waive to drop all the way down to 3C though for that opportunity? As much as the move fortifies the Leafs at centre - and it very much does that - it appears to also take away perhaps too much from the blueline going forward (Lehtonen and Bogosian would be UFAs, etc.) Of course, if the end result is a Cup...

I appreciate the considerations. I can only state that the money Chicago would be paying out, after retention, would be the same as what they'd be paying Toews alone. They may, like the Leafs probably will do this year, hide Sandin in the minors until Zadorov's contract is up. Regardless, they may find Sandin and Boqvist a tantalizing combination moving forward.

 

[Buds17]

The only way I can see it making sense is if the plan is to rent Towes at 50% for a one-time all-in run, and then sell him to someone in the offseason at 25% for a haul bigger than we gave up.

Could be. Reasonable enough to assume the haul would be bigger the second time around with the greater retention, but a lot would be predicated though on a willingness to waive his NMC once, let alone twice.

 

[Buds17]

I appreciate the considerations. I can only state that the money Chicago would be paying out, after retention, would be the same as what they'd be paying Toews alone. They may, like the Leafs probably will do this year, hide Sandin in the minors until Zadorov's contract is up. Regardless, they may find Sandin and Boqvist a tantalizing combination moving forward.

I could see Chicago finding the offer enticing. Doesn't hurt to be able to address multiple areas with a similar amount of cap space. Would have to know about any other possible and competing offers out there. Toews holds the cards though with the NMC.

 

[Martin Skoula]

By all means, suggest the player who is currently available (I believe Toews may be available given Chicago's intent) who: a) is as good defensively, b) has the ability to score at his rate, c) brings his pedigree, and d) supports the C position with such clarity should injuries occur.

I accept that Toews is a 'all in' proposition. One can argue against it. No worries. But, he does provide the team a level of competency and depth we've cried out for. I am suggesting he might be the quality of player at 3C is superior to what we have, while possessing the talent to improve those around him, thus making our 4 lines the envy of the league. All while not affecting our cap hit. Of course, our depth and future prospect pool is affected. You have to decide which is of more concern.

We could have had E. Staal for cheap, maybe Getzlaf as a rental. If you don't care about pedigree, that list is probably 10+ deep.

For this trade to be a "win", we'd need to have one of Matthews/Tavares get injured and have Towes step up in a big way. If they're both healthy, it's just massive overkill at the position with the lowest potential upside. Sandin + 1st + 2nd + Holl + Kerfoot is more than a 1.5 year rental of Karlsson cost, it's more than Pronger returned. If Columbus flames out, that's a Jones+Jenner 1.5 year rental easily. Jones >>> the difference between Towes and Jenner playing 15 minutes a night.

 

[meefer]

You're giving up more than half of our tradeable assets for a guy who would be playing 15 minutes a night with Vesey and Simmonds. In those 15 minutes a night with those wingers, how many more goals does Towes score/prevent over Kerfoot? Maybe a net +5-10 goals on the year?

Our 3C has a very low ceiling, your best case is that whoever it is can play some PK minutes and fill in on PP2 sometimes while going even at even strength. Towes can do that but so can Kerfoot and a handful of still unsigned UFAs like Soderberg/Haula.

This is killing a fly with a shotgun, you can get someone who can do 99% of the job 2020 Towes can in those minutes for less than the biggest trade return since the salary cap.

To add a final thought: while the base of tradeable assets has been decreased, we've maintained a substantial amount of what we hold dear. Robertson, Liljegen, Amirov, Abramov, Hallander, are still in the picture.

 

[meefer]

We could have had E. Staal for cheap, maybe Getzlaf as a rental. If you don't care about pedigree, that list is probably 10+ deep.

For this trade to be a "win", we'd need to have one of Matthews/Tavares get injured and have Towes step up in a big way. If they're both healthy, it's just massive overkill at the position with the lowest potential upside. Sandin + 1st + 2nd + Holl + Kerfoot is more than a 1.5 year rental of Karlsson cost, it's more than Pronger returned. If Columbus flames out, that's a Jones+Jenner 1.5 year rental easily. Jones >>> the difference between Towes and Jenner playing 15 minutes a night.

What I'm suggesting is what I consider to be fair value. If you think you can achieve the equal or better, than please provide the trade consideration. 1.5 year valuations don't work in the real world. Offer a different trade that makes the team better. I'm all in for seeing the team get better.

 

[mydnyte]

As a 60 point player, who is immediately being replaced by two players who can achieve close to his numbers, while offering the equivalent of two first round picks (and Sandin being considered as a high first rounder) + a 2nd, yes, I'd pursue it. Especially when Chicago is moving in the direction they've stated. Perhaps Toews can realize more of a return, their interests would be best served to investigate that. But, it would be in our interest to see if we could make such a deal. Why would one not try?

after they resign Strome they wont have the cap space to absorb 50% if it was a dollar in-dollar out deal, which its not. Chicago cant afford to retain 50% period!

 

[Menzinger]

Toews and Kane both have a NMC and have apparently told management they have no intention of moving even if they rebuild

 

[Leafs1991]

Can you think of a team that would have a better group of Cs in today's game. I can't. Matthews down for 10-15 games and he's replaced by Tavares and then Toews, followed by Thornton, this is a special group. Toews, a former Selke winner, playing with Hyman and... do you not have a shutdown line? Also capable of 45-50 points on the 3rd line. And his PK abilities. For 3 years. Really, how do you say no?



It's not the give, it's the get. Toews with whomever, on the 3rd line, is that not a shutdown opportunity with some offensive threat? Jonathan Toews on the Leafs would offer us the strongest group of C in the NHL, hands down. Matthews, Tavares, Toews, Thornton: each C makes his line mates better.

I don't know, but Chicago receiving 2 players they can immediately inject into their lineup, 2 first rounders (Sandin being considered a 1st) and a sweetener? Isn't it within the realms of consideration? Our forward group would be gosh darn sexy.

Its a bit overpriced is all. No one is going to disagree with you on what Toews can bring to Torontos lineup. For me, take out Sandin and I'd do that deal.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Fair comment, thank you. But I'd ask that you consider that:
1) Most consider C to be the most important position you can fill.
2) Worth can be considered in a number of ways. One way, which is how I am suggesting, is that it provides the Leafs with a superiority beyond just the value of the player.
3) With Toews, there is no weakness in the Leafs F grouping. There can be two superior offensive lines, a strong defensive line, and a quality 4th line. No other team in the league would be able to match what we could offer.
4) The deal is advantageous to us regarding Cap compliance. We'd be able to accrue money that could be spent at the deadline.
5) Any injury, any (!), at C is covered more than any other team in the league.
6) Our D corp is not affected by this consideration this year. Sandin would be, at best, our 3rd LD. Dermott/Lehtonen adequately fill that position this year and next.
7) At some point you have to make a choice as to whether this is a good time to go for a game changing decision. It's perfectly arguable to view Toews as a player not capable of moving the needle sufficiently to make this type of move. I see it as a golden opportunity. Your 3rd line is strengthened, your PK is strengthened, your C depth is strengthened, your playoff experience is strengthened, your motivation is recognized, your most talented group is/approaching their most productive years, your D is stronger than it has been in years, you've got a 2 year window with the same players (minus replaceable players)...send a message. Tell this group you believe in their abilities and give them the push by saying 'fellas, we can do this'. See: Raptors, Kwai Leonard.
8) Matthews, Tavares, Toews, Thornton, and the options that follow.

I want a Cup. A two year window of this potential group is better than anything I've seen since the 60s. At least consider it, before dismissing it with bland "it's a waste, plain and simple".

Moving all those assets for a guy who'd be on our third line seems like overkill. You're just adding to another strength, unnecessarily IMO. We arent going to lose because of our centers. You said it's an important position, which it is, but, the glaring weakness still remains that workhorse RD. That package should be able to get you a younger #2 who'd hopefully be cheap. A Parayko, Murphy or even a Weegar is a much bigger need. We get one of those guys and I'd say we're a top 5 team. The blue line is why this team will or won't win a cup in the near future.

 

[LeafChief]

For those looking for a Monday night laugh.

Most Improved Team

I try to stay away from the mainboards but sometimes you just need to put a fool in his place.

 

[kb]

As opposed to making a definitive statement suggesting you're a guru, explain why.

If I have to explain why it's a bad idea to trade for a long term $5.25 million #3C who will be 33 this season when the Leafs have a bunch of contracts coming up, I don't know what to tell you, and that's before what you gifted to Chicago to take that hit on.

 

[kb]

Its a bit overpriced is all. No one is going to disagree with you on what Toews can bring to Torontos lineup. For me, take out Sandin and I'd do that deal.

The Leafs will start subtracting D-man if you are adding $2 million to the #3C position.

 

[Pinto]

For those looking for a Monday night laugh.

Most Improved Team

I try to stay away from the mainboards but sometimes you just need to put a fool in his place.

Wow, that sums up the main board for you.

 

[barilko05]

I know that Berger rumour about Chara to TO is K-R-A-P (it's Berger, after all) but it got me to thinking. If Chara signs ANYWHERE else but Boston, especially here, where our players are penalized for looking at the other team funny, only to then be disabled with a crosscheck to the back while everyone looks the other way (I see you PLD!) what would it look like? I mean, the guy gets away with SO much because he's wearing that Beantown uni. Would his "Boston immunity" carry over if he were playing in say, Arizona or Vegas...or here? I would be wary about signing him only to suddenly discover that the refs have begun treating him like any other player...which would mean he would break the PIM record in about a month...or less.
And before you say anything...yes, my tinfoil hat is a trifle tight, but it's quite stylish, don't you think?

 

[justashadowof]

I know that Berger rumour about Chara to TO is K-R-A-P (it's Berger, after all) but it got me to thinking. If Chara signs ANYWHERE else but Boston, especially here, where our players are penalized for looking at the other team funny, only to then be disabled with a crosscheck to the back while everyone looks the other way (I see you PLD!) what would it look like? I mean, the guy gets away with SO much because he's wearing that Beantown uni. Would his "Boston immunity" carry over if he were playing in say, Arizona or Vegas...or here? I would be wary about signing him only to suddenly discover that the refs have begun treating him like any other player...which would mean he would break the PIM record in about a month...or less.
And before you say anything...yes, my tinfoil hat is a trifle tight, but it's quite stylish, don't you think?

I posted this exact same musing about a week or so ago. Somebody responded with a good line about the talking heads explaining the increased penalties away as Chara "losing a step."

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

For those looking for a Monday night laugh.

Most Improved Team

I try to stay away from the mainboards but sometimes you just need to put a fool in his place.

it definitely doesn't help when you get idiots like Craig Button saying Monteal is the best team in Canada (Leafs were #4)

 

[Leafs1991]

The Leafs will start subtracting D-man if you are adding $2 million to the #3C position.

Haha never looked at the cap situation of it to be fair.

 

[LeafChief]

it definitely doesn't help when you get idiots like Craig Button saying Monteal is the best team in Canada (Leafs were #4)

The poster is an absolute homer in the worst way. He was arguing that the Leafs had to give up two good young players (Kapanen and Johnsson) and a quick search of his name and the word 'Kapanen' brought up 6 PAGES of posts of him trashin Kapanen (and generally all things Leafs).

I understand not liking a team but when not liking a team clouds your judgment, I feel bad for these people. We have them on our board too, don't get me wrong.

 

[meefer]

after they resign Strome they wont have the cap space to absorb 50% if it was a dollar in-dollar out deal, which its not. Chicago cant afford to retain 50% period!

Toews at 50% costs them 5.50M. Kerfoot and Holl, 5.5M, resulting in the same cost as Toews for the next 3 years (with Sandin in the minors until next year).

 

[meefer]

Toews and Kane both have a NMC and have apparently told management they have no intention of moving even if they rebuild

I'd not seen Toews say that he wouldn't move. If he has, than anything I suggest is dead on the doorstep. Thank you.

 

[A1LeafNation]

it definitely doesn't help when you get idiots like Craig Button saying Monteal is the best team in Canada (Leafs were #4)

I like what Montreal has done. Building from the net out and hoping to score by committee.

They are built opposite of the Leafs who are heavy on forward and hoping to be good enough defensively to match up with anyone.

These two are the two best in Canada at the moment.