Toronto Sports Media Discussion Thread - v7 (2022 Edition)

[TheShape]

Frankie Corrado's bit on Overdrive was spot on today. And refreshing to hear a different voice.

 

[stickty111]

Odog is such a moron and so are all the leaf fans who think the way he does and can't grasp the simple point that MJ was making. The leafs lost by 1 goal to one of the best teams in modern history. You could run that back with the same players and get a different result from one team getting a couple more bounces/calls. Their previous playoff failures are irrelevant, the only thing that matters is where they were as a team this season and they were good enough to go neck and neck with the 2x cup champs.

Watching Hayes and Jeff get angry and than making a fool out of themselves was cringe worthy stuff. I don't know what they were expecting Dubas, Shanny and Keefe to say. They aren't going to attack the the players in the media. Plus either they are ignorant or missed it but Dubas was less non commitial to the core this time than last year.
To your point I agree. Jeff seemed to think you make a big trade and the team will be better. No guarantees in hockey, and maybe Leafs miss the playoffs with a change. The Atlantic isn't getting easier.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

The Leafs post-mortem archive bit with Al's brother was hilarious.....and really sad

 

[Apex Predator]

Frankie Corrado's bit on Overdrive was spot on today. And refreshing to hear a different voice.

What did he say?

 

[A1LeafNation]

What did he say?

Made sense to run it back. He played for Keefe and he is a great coach; fiery not condescending, matter of fact.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Anthrax442]

 

[francis246]

Odog is such a moron and so are all the leaf fans who think the way he does and can't grasp the simple point that MJ was making. The leafs lost by 1 goal to one of the best teams in modern history. You could run that back with the same players and get a different result from one team getting a couple more bounces/calls. Their previous playoff failures are irrelevant, the only thing that matters is where they were as a team this season and they were good enough to go neck and neck with the 2x cup champs.

The problem is that, you can’t just run it back. It hasn’t worked for 5/6 years with this core & 18 years overall as an organization. I agree with Hayes. You have to make a change to the team if the right deal is there or a better coach is available. Whether it’s a coach fired or a player is traded. Something has to make this team understand that you can’t be comfortable. Hayes’ Masai analogy was spot on. Masai, the off-season before they won the Championship was ruthless. He fired the coach that won coach of the year, he traded the best player on the team for a better star who performs in the playoffs. They were on their way to 60 wins but at the trade deadline he traded their young star Center for an older but veteran Marc Gasol. Masai was willing to do whatever it took to give himself and his staff the best possible roster.

The point being is something has to budge. Explore every possible way to get better.

 

[Peasy]

The problem is that, you can’t just run it back. It hasn’t worked for 5/6 years with this core & 18 years overall as an organization. I agree with Hayes. You have to make a change to the team if the right deal is there or a better coach is available. Whether it’s a coach fired or a player is traded. Something has to make this team understand that you can’t be comfortable. Hayes’ Masai analogy was spot on. Masai, the off-season before they won the Championship was ruthless. He fired the coach that won coach of the year, he traded the best player on the team for a better star who performs in the playoffs. They were on their way to 60 wins but at the trade deadline he traded their young star Center for an older but veteran Marc Gasol. Masai was willing to do whatever it took to give himself and his staff the best possible roster.

The point being is something has to budge. Explore every possible way to get better.

Basketball and hockey are two completely different sports though. Players don't get moved in the NHL like they do in the NBA. One player in the NBA has a way bigger impact than one single NHL player.

 

[francis246]

Basketball and hockey are two completely different sports though. Players don't get moved in the NHL like they do in the NBA. One player in the NBA has a way bigger impact than one single NHL player.

Which is why I said if the right deal is available. Even if you want to use the Washington Capitals analogy for example. People are acting like they didn’t change that roster. They made moves. They added a player like T.J. Oshie who plays completely different than most of the skilled guys on the team. They revamped their bottom six and went out and got guys like Devonte Smith-Pelly. They eventually moved on from Mike Green and Alex Semin. Their approach to drafting changed a bit. They started drafted more two way guys. They promoted young guys on the team. It doesn’t have to be a huge trade. But maybe it’s trading Nylander for a player who makes similar but has more jam and bite.

Fans who think the leafs shouldn’t at the very least EXPLORE the possibility of making moves internally and externally are setting themselves up for another year of failure and I’m not even a pessimistic fan. But to think this team doesn’t need change is outrageous.

 

[Peasy]

Which is why I said if the right deal is available. Even if you want to use the Washington Capitals analogy for example. People are acting like they didn’t change that roster. They made moves. They added a player like T.J. Oshie who plays completely different than most of the skilled guys on the team. They revamped their bottom six and went out and got guys like Devonte Smith-Pelly. They eventually moved on from Mike Green and Alex Semin. Their approach to drafting changed a bit. They started drafted more two way guys. They promoted young guys on the team. It doesn’t have to be a huge trade. But maybe it’s trading Nylander for a player who makes similar but has more jam and bite.

Fans who think the leafs shouldn’t at the very least EXPLORE the possibility of making moves internally and externally are setting themselves up for another year of failure and I’m not even a pessimistic fan. But to think this team doesn’t need change is outrageous.

I do think something needs to change, I just don't think it's that likely and easy to do (unless you make a desperate trade for a loss). And comparing it to the Raps situation doesn't make much sense imo. Those types of trades don't happen in the NHL, and are really not practical (impact by one player way more in the NBA, way more flexible cap/contracts etc) . Good luck finding a trading partner that will give you equal value for nylander back in a trade that you will be able to use next year. You pretty much need a Subban for Weber like trade. But a trade like that can also turn out like hall for Larsson.

I personally can't come up with a realistic proposal that would work out for the leafs and another team with trading nylander.

 

[francis246]

I do think something needs to change, I just don't think it's that likely and easy to do (unless you make a desperate trade for a loss). And comparing it to the Raps situation doesn't make much sense imo. Those types of trades don't happen in the NHL, and are really not practical (impact by one player way more in the NBA, way more flexible cap/contracts etc) . Good luck finding a trading partner that will give you equal value for nylander back in a trade that you will be able to use next year. You pretty much need a Subban for Weber like trade. But a trade like that can also turn out like hall for Larsson.

I personally can't come up with a realistic proposal that would work out for the leafs and another team with trading nylander.

Right, but guess what. That’s why Dubas & co are paid the big bucks. It’s their job to explore if that’s a possibility. I don’t think it’s as impossible as some are making it out to seem. Again I’m not saying it has to be Nylander: it could be a Kerfoot trade. It could be not resigning Campbell. Me personally I think it’s changing the head coach. I don’t think they need to trade a core guy. I just don’t believe Keefe is the guy to lead us to the cup. I think DeBoer would be perfect, he’s been to multiple finals, is a players coach but still firm and is a bit more experienced. But I doubt Dubas has the balls to make that kind of change.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I just don’t believe Keefe is the guy to lead us to the cup

And yet our GM thinks he'll be a hall of famer

 

[TheShape]

What did he say?

Made sense to run it back. He played for Keefe and he is a great coach; fiery not condescending, matter of fact.

Corrado also said they are ultra data driven and aren’t going to make any decisions based off feel. Everything they say in media is calculated and pretty vanilla and believes that bleeds into their play on the ice.

Another point he made that was the leafs don’t score enough goals in tight, they’re always looking for the perfect pass or perfect play. I was screaming about this in games 6,7 most notably. Sometimes you just need to throw the puck in high danger areas and worry less about the percentages.

 

[pcruz]

Corrado also said they are ultra data driven and aren’t going to make any decisions based off feel. Everything they say in media is calculated and pretty vanilla and believes that bleeds into their play on the ice.

Another point he made that was the leafs don’t score enough goals in tight, they’re always looking for the perfect pass or perfect play. I was screaming about this in games 6,7 most notably. Sometimes you just need to throw the puck in high danger areas and worry less about the percentages.

Brodie gave up a few shots in tight and went for a skate and I wanted to puke.

At the same time, we have guys force shots into bad traffic which inevitably get blocked.
My thing was, if the shot is going to get blocked anyway, shoot as hard as you can and make it painful to block it. That way the defenders might hesitate next time.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

The beauty of being in the "run it back" camp is that if they fail next season, you can just act outraged like others and no one will bother to check the receipts and see if you were one of the "high and mighty real fans" who stuck with the team.

But if they succeed next year, you can proclaim how you were always a true fan, others had no faith, etc.

It's a no-lose position to take.

 

[justashadowof]

I expect to see us flooded with summer articles titled "Dubas Is the Man for the Job", "Here is Why the Toronto Maple Leafs Will Win in the Playoffs in 2023", "What You Need to Know About the Leafs 2023 Playoff Push"

The media ocean is dominated by endless apologia written by people with a transparent conflict of interest:
1. Bell Media (TSN, TSN radio) has a minority ownership stake in MLSE.
2. Rogers media (Sportsnet, FAN590) has the majority stake in MLSE.
3. Many on-line influencers/"independent journalists" who receive endless positive feedback and rewards for their openly uncritical, supportive, rationalizing rambles.

Also it's strange how there's always more vicious pushback against criticism of the team's GM than the team's star players.

 

[Deebo]

The beauty of being in the "run it back" camp is that if they fail next season, you can just act outraged like others and no one will bother to check the receipts and see if you were one of the "high and mighty real fans" who stuck with the team.

But if they succeed next year, you can proclaim how you were always a true fan, others had no faith, etc.

It's a no-lose position to take.

The beauty of being in the "blow it up" camp, is that if they win next season, you can celebrate ane be happy and no one will bother to check the recipts and see if you were one of the "fire everyone, dubasss is a moron fans" who shit on the team.

But if they lose next year, you can proclaim how you were right, others were dumb, etc.

It's a no-lose position to take.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

The beauty of being in the "blow it up" camp, is that if they win next season, you can celebrate ane be happy and no one will bother to check the recipts and see if you were one of the "fire everyone, dubasss is a moron fans" who shit on the team.

But if they lose next year, you can proclaim how you were right, others were dumb, etc.

It's a no-lose position to take.

The difference is that anyone saying that we need to make changes are currently being labelled as neanderthals who don't understand the game, etc. There is definitely a "lose" side. I am a big Dubas fan, but when I want to see some kind of drastic change to avoid completely wasting the Matthews era, I get all kinds of comments about how Tampa are the champs, unlucky bounces, blowing it up is stupid, etc.

The safe, agreeable opinion right now is to be in the run it back camp.

 

[Apex Predator]

The beauty of being in the "blow it up" camp, is that if they win next season, you can celebrate ane be happy and no one will bother to check the recipts and see if you were one of the "fire everyone, dubasss is a moron fans" who shit on the team.

But if they lose next year, you can proclaim how you were right, others were dumb, etc.

It's a no-lose position to take.

The beauty of being in the "run it back" camp is that if they fail next season, you can just act outraged like others and no one will bother to check the receipts and see if you were one of the "high and mighty real fans" who stuck with the team.

But if they succeed next year, you can proclaim how you were always a true fan, others had no faith, etc.

It's a no-lose position to take.

Lol there are posters here who will check receipts.

 

[Brobust]

Watching Hayes and Jeff get angry and than making a fool out of themselves was cringe worthy stuff. I don't know what they were expecting Dubas, Shanny and Keefe to say. They aren't going to attack the the players in the media. Plus either they are ignorant or missed it but Dubas was less non commitial to the core this time than last year.
To your point I agree. Jeff seemed to think you make a big trade and the team will be better. No guarantees in hockey, and maybe Leafs miss the playoffs with a change. The Atlantic isn't getting easier.

Actually it was pretty funny how Dubas said he'd look at the core and then said his definition of core is different from ours.

 

[Brobust]

Which is why I said if the right deal is available. Even if you want to use the Washington Capitals analogy for example. People are acting like they didn’t change that roster. They made moves. They added a player like T.J. Oshie who plays completely different than most of the skilled guys on the team. They revamped their bottom six and went out and got guys like Devonte Smith-Pelly. They eventually moved on from Mike Green and Alex Semin. Their approach to drafting changed a bit. They started drafted more two way guys. They promoted young guys on the team. It doesn’t have to be a huge trade. But maybe it’s trading Nylander for a player who makes similar but has more jam and bite.

Fans who think the leafs shouldn’t at the very least EXPLORE the possibility of making moves internally and externally are setting themselves up for another year of failure and I’m not even a pessimistic fan. But to think this team doesn’t need change is outrageous.

Dubas has said multiple times that every person in the organization is evaluated at the end of the season.

Do you expect him or Shanahan to go out there and say we thought about firing the coach and trading a star player but decided not to? They instead said, we're not making lateral or backward moves.

 

[Brobust]

MJ is usually good, but I didn't agree with his Leafs takes at all today. One example: he believes that the Caps just happened to win when Trotz joined them.....implying that it had nothing to do with Trotz.

Trotz literally went over a dozen years without making it out of the 2nd round. This includes a massive streak of not making the playoffs or not getting out of the 1st round.

Also, if the Isles had to play 82 game regular seasons in 19-20 and 20-21, there's a valid argument that they would have missed the playoffs entirely.

 

[Deebo]

The difference is that anyone saying that we need to make changes are currently being labelled as neanderthals who don't understand the game, etc.

And some of the "blow it up" crowd will label those who disagree losers who don't care about winning or delusional etc. None of these add to the discussion. Ignore these types of posters on both sides, they aren't worth the time.

There is definitely a "lose" side.

if random strangers calling you names is the "lose" side, then having either opinion has a lose side.

I am a big Dubas fan, but when I want to see some kind of drastic change to avoid completely wasting the Matthews era, I get all kinds of comments about how Tampa are the champs, unlucky bounces, blowing it up is stupid, etc.

Yes. You post an opinion and if others disagree, they post their responses. This is called discussion, and it's what the board is for.

The safe, agreeable opinion right now is to be in the run it back camp.

Claiming people only hold an opinion because it's "safe" and "agreeable" and not because they beleive in its merits isn't very different than the labelling you are complaining is happening to you.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

The beauty of being in the "run it back" camp is that if they fail next season, you can just act outraged like others and no one will bother to check the receipts and see if you were one of the "high and mighty real fans" who stuck with the team.

But if they succeed next year, you can proclaim how you were always a true fan, others had no faith, etc.

It's a no-lose position to take.

The flip side of this is entirely true as well.