Confirmed with Link: Toronto gets Campbell and Clifford for Moore, 2nd (cond) & 3rd (Part II)

[Mess]

I guess for a guy that doesn't believe in physicality, this is a pretty big admission of error.

I really don't care if he has done a 180 though. I don't care if the Dubas backers are having a tough time with the idea of grit.

I'm glad he finally addressed this with at least a look towards not getting pushed around anymore..

For all Leaf fans that believed the Leafs were too soft and lacked backbone and push back ability, then seeing Dubas bring in Clifford is a welcome site to help address the teams well known and documented weakness.

Last year at the TD, when the need for grit and toughness was required, Dubas brought in Nic Petan who sat in the pressbox all playoffs.. When Michael Ferland and Wayne Simmonds were on the wish list as need players.

I don't suspect Clifford will see much pressbox time and some of the more smaller and softer players more likely to be watching from above.

The next time teams start taking liberties with some of our skilled guys, I trust Clifford will be there to straighten them out.

Perhaps just his presence in the lineup will act as a deterrent and the opposition will think twice, which should allow the Leafs skilled players to focus more on their own games and play bigger knowing they have an insurance policy having their backs..

 

[al secord]

Like a welcoming mat?

Your Swedish is turrible.

 

[Pookie]

Dubas' thoughts couldn't be more clear

Maple Leafs' Dubas believes Clifford trade will make 'big impact' - Sportsnet.ca
It's what people have been saying to you all along, but you seem to only want to drive your narrative.

He plays the same amount of minutes that Matt Martin does.

Martin has played PK this year. He played in the playoffs, averaging the same amount of time as Clifford does. This nonsense about Martin being a player you have to hide is just that. Nonsense.

An argument of convenience for folks who don't want to admit that Dubas has done a 180 and instead pretend that Clifford is a special skilled physical player... with the exact same amount of points on better teams mind you... as a player that some ran out of town.

 

[saltming]

For all Leaf fans that believed the Leafs were too soft and lacked backbone and push back ability, then see Dubas bring in Clifford is a welcome site to help address that team well known weakness.

Last year at the TD, when the need for grit and toughness was required, Dubas brought in Nic Petan who sat in the pressbox all playoffs.. I don't suspect Clifford will see much pressbox time and some of the more small and softer players more likely to be watching from above.

The next time teams start taking liberties with some of our skilled guys, I trust Clifford will be there to straighten them out.

Perhaps just his presence in the lineup will act as a deterrent and the opposition will think twice, which should allow the Leafs skilled players to focus more on their own games and play bigger knowing they have an insurance policy having their backs.

The thing is, this isn't the old days where he can jump the boards to deliver a beating on some player mauling one of our stars. It would have to be some juggling to get that matchup and then there is the instigator penalty to deter any overt attempts at "protecting" our stars.
I do feel he will bring some grit and toughness to the team obviously. I do think he will drop the gloves. But I'm just not sure the idea this will now stop players from taking runs at our stars is a thing anymore.

 

[Pookie]

For all Leaf fans that believed the Leafs were too soft and lacked backbone and push back ability, then seeing Dubas bring in Clifford is a welcome site to help address the teams well known and documented weakness.

Last year at the TD, when the need for grit and toughness was required, Dubas brought in Nic Petan who sat in the pressbox all playoffs.. I don't suspect Clifford will see much pressbox time and some of the more smaller and softer players more likely to be watching from above.

The next time teams start taking liberties with some of our skilled guys, I trust Clifford will be there to straighten them out.

Perhaps just his presence in the lineup will act as a deterrent and the opposition will think twice, which should allow the Leafs skilled players to focus more on their own games and play bigger knowing they have an insurance policy having their backs..

Agreed.

He will replace Martin.

And that probably has some Dubas' supporters squirming but for this Leafs' supporter, I welcome Dubas' admission of error and look forward to seeing the team playing a little taller and with confidence.

 

[KingsHockey24]

What's the context here?

Just about every preseason from 2012/13 he wore the C for split squad games.

Over guys like Carter, Martinez, Muzzin etc.

 

[saltming]

He plays the same amount of minutes that Matt Martin does.

Martin has played PK this year. He played in the playoffs, averaging the same amount of time as Clifford does. This nonsense about Martin being a player you have to hide is just that. Nonsense.

An argument of convenience for folks who don't want to admit that Dubas has done a 180 and instead pretend that Clifford is a special skilled physical player... with the exact same amount of points on better teams mind you... as a player that some ran out of town.

So the entire hockey world say one thing, but you say different, so they are making it up?
Clifford has always been considered very good defensively. Martin? Not so much.

 

[saltming]

Just about every preseason from 2012/13 he wore the C for split squad games.

Over guys like Carter, Martinez, Muzzin etc.

Thanks!
Amazing character. Sorry you're losing him, but not sorry we're getting him

 

[SeaOfBlue]

You’ve seen the career totals right?

Even when influenced by being on a bottom feeder vs a Cup champ for most of their respectively careers.... very similar players.

Dubas made a mistake in ridding the roster of physicality. He corrected it partially by bringing back a Martin.

There is a lot more to one's game than production. Clifford dictates play a lot better than Martin. He defends much better than Martin. He skates much better than Martin. Essentially, he can be used in more scenarios than just hitting or fighting people, which is all Martin can do.

Ridding the roster of guys who were not providing a ton of value outside of physicality was not a mistake. It's was the right move. This team does not need physicality, it needs guys who will work hard and bring a consistent effort every night, in all zones. He wants more Hyman types if anything, and Hyman is not an overly physical guy. Clifford is a little bit more physical, but Dubas' driving factor for bringing him in was likely his playoff experience and work ethic. If he did not have the latter, he would not be a Leaf right now, no matter how many hits or fights he has.

We lose when the other team outworks us or we make mistakes. Most teams are bigger and stronger than us, but we still beat them every time if we outwork them and do not make stupid errors, both of which are in our control.

 

[saltming]

Your Swedish is turrible.

But I learned from this notable tv icon

 

[HamiltonNHL]

I'm going to post this again so more people can see it since the previous thread was closed.

Did he CopyPasta that from Tavares ?

Well played

 

[Pookie]

So the entire hockey world say one thing, but you say different, so they are making it up?
Clifford has always been considered very good defensively. Martin? Not so much.

The "entire hockey world?"

C'mon man.

Martin plays the PK for pete's sake. Trusted by Trotz in the Post Season as well. I'm not saying he's a super star... but that is not "a player you have to hide."

 

[al secord]

But I learned from this notable tv icon

I don't care how bad your day is going, if the Swedish Chef can't put a smile on your face, you are dead inside.

 

[Pookie]

There is a lot more to one's game than production. Clifford dictates play a lot better than Martin. He defends much better than Martin. He skates much better than Martin. Essentially, he can be used in more scenarios than just hitting or fighting people, which is all Martin can do.

Ridding the roster of guys who were not providing a ton of value outside of physicality was not a mistake. It's was the right move. This team does not need physicality, it needs guys who will work hard and bring a consistent effort every night, in all zones. He wants more Hyman types if anything, and Hyman is not an overly physical guy. Clifford is a little bit more physical, but Dubas' driving factor for bringing him in was likely his playoff experience and work ethic. If he did not have the latter, he would not be a Leaf right now, no matter how many hits or fights he has.

We lose when the other team outworks us or we make mistakes. Most teams are bigger and stronger than us, but we still beat them every time if we outwork them and do not make stupid errors, both of which are in our control.

So it sounds like you've watched a lot of LA Kings games this year and compared them with Islanders games this year.

How many?

And what's your secret? How do you find the time?

 

[HamiltonNHL]

He was 10-14-1 and still put up a .928 sv% on a garbage team last year. Pretty sure he was a top 10 draft pick too, as a goalie that is super tough to do.

Interesting

 

[saltming]

The "entire hockey world?"

C'mon man.

Martin plays the PK for pete's sake. Trusted by Trotz in the Post Season as well. I'm not saying he's a super star... but that is not "a player you have to hide."

Polak played the pk
Penalty killing takes strength and positioning.
This is different than not needing to be sheltered 5v5

 

[saltming]

I don't care how bad your day is going, if the Swedish Chef can't put a smile on your face, you are dead inside.

If it didnt put a smile on their face I would say

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Leafs will be out 2 X 1sts + 2 former 2nd round prospects + 3 X 3rds and only have Kerfoot and Campbell to show as remaining pieces just for renting Muzzin, Barrie and Clifford for this year.

Quite a bit.

We only have Matthews guaranteed for 5 years. It's 100% blow up time after that.

 

[4thline]

Polak played the pk
Penalty killing takes strength and positioning.
This is different than not needing to be sheltered 5v5

Matt Martin had ~15 min of SH time (13 secs a game) last year and is on pace for ~10 over a full season this year (8 secs a game). Big time pker.


But 5v5 he's not really sheltered. I think his contract had more to do with his departure than his play, also the rumoured Babcock conflict.

 

[ULF_55]

He plays the same amount of minutes that Matt Martin does.

Martin has played PK this year. He played in the playoffs, averaging the same amount of time as Clifford does. This nonsense about Martin being a player you have to hide is just that. Nonsense.

An argument of convenience for folks who don't want to admit that Dubas has done a 180 and instead pretend that Clifford is a special skilled physical player... with the exact same amount of points on better teams mind you... as a player that some ran out of town.

Clifford has a reasonable contract for a 11 minute a night intangibles player.

I'd be curious if Keefe would have utilized Martin differently than Babcock?

Martin played less than 8 minutes a night his last season with the Leafs. $2.5mm for a 8 minute a game forward?

If the coach won't play a player, especially in a Cap league, best if you get rid of the coach or the player.

 

[saltming]

Matt Martin had ~15 min of SH time (13 secs a game) last year and is on pace for ~10 over a full season this year (8 secs a game). Big time pker.


But 5v5 he's not really sheltered. I think his contract had more to do with his departure than his play, also the rumoured Babcock conflict.

Perhaps, but Clifford is a much better possession player and his advanced stats are better than Martin.
Dubas, being an analytics guy, probably values this highly and thus the distinction between the two in his evaluation of them.

 

[ShaneFalco]

So we're pining for Matt Martin ?

 

[ULF_55]

Quite a bit.

We only have Matthews guaranteed for 5 years. It's 100% blow up time after that.

Yes, so you wonder if the Leafs should be going all in now hoping to cash in these next 4-5 years and say screw the future?

Drafting a player today, outside the top of the draft that won't add value until after Matthews deal is up is less of a concern than trading that pick(s) for someone who can help win today and the next few years?

Scorched earth policy?

Maybe moving marner or Nylander in 4 years before they hit UFA to start the rebuild?

 

[JEI]

Wouldn't be surprised if Clifford is signed before seasons over especially if he comes at a cheaper cost than what LA was paying him.

Reading between the lines I think Dubas was targeting him for a while.

 

[4thline]

Perhaps, but Clifford is a much better possession player and his advanced stats are better than Martin.
Dubas, being an analytics guy, probably values this highly and thus the distinction between the two in his evaluation of them.

Of course, he's a better player. But if Martin's contract was for the 800k that Clifford is at he's likely still a Leaf.