Confirmed with Link: Toronto gets Campbell and Clifford for Moore, 2nd (cond) & 3rd (Part II)

[BertCorbeau]

I've heard too many interviews with him to think he believes in it.

Even the audacity to say he's heard around the league that teams think they can come in and push us around.

He didn't want a fighter... wanted someone who could play.

Just consider this:

Matt Martin Career ATOI - 11:24 - 676 GP and 129 PTS
Kyle Clifford Career ATOI - 10:17 - 660 GP and 129 PTS

We had one. He traded him.

And now... we have one again.

It can be both. Clifford is a very strong possession player which helps suggests he can play and fight whereas Martin is a significantly poorer possession player and we all know he can’t really play a skilled game

 

[Pookie]

It can be both. Clifford is a very strong possession player which helps suggests he can play and fight whereas Martin is a significantly poorer possession player and we all know he can’t really play a skilled game

Anything can be argued.

It is a 180 in my view and I am quite happy

 

[Gabriel426]

I've heard too many interviews with him to think he believes in it.

Even the audacity to say he's heard around the league that teams think they can come in and push us around.

He didn't want a fighter... wanted someone who could play.

Just consider this:

Matt Martin Career ATOI - 11:24 - 676 GP and 129 PTS
Kyle Clifford Career ATOI - 10:17 - 660 GP and 129 PTS

We had one. He traded him.

And now... we have one again.

At the end, Martin was not even the 13th forward on the Leafs. Now, that might have something to do with how Babs was using him but that’s another discussion.
Martin could not break into the lineup.

 

[Pookie]

At the end, Martin was not even the 13th forward on the Leafs. Now, that might have something to do with how Babs was using him but that’s another discussion.
Martin could not break into the lineup.

There’s probably something there between Martin and Babcock.

 

[Gabriel426]

There’s probably something there between Martin and Babcock.

Won’t disagree, since Martin played like a normal 4th liner the moment he got traded to Islanders

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I think it's a bit erroneous to suggest that Dubas didn't believe in grit. His Marlies team had some grit. I think he's just selective about it.

People seem to like to say things while ignoring what's been right in front of them. I mean at the very least they haven't followed the Marlies - which he built - at all. Not sure why people assume we are a finished product?

 

[Nithoniniel]

People seem to like to say things while ignoring what's been right in front of them. I mean at the very least they haven't followed the Marlies - which he built - at all. Not sure why people assume we are a finished product?

Marlies has been a gritty team. Dubas first major trade was for Muzzin, a very gritty player. His consistent position since his junior days has been that he wants those attributes, he just doesn't prioritize them over play-driving qualities.

It's just a narrative that some can't shake because they somehow see that and being a believer in analytics as mutually exclusive concepts.

 

[Nylander88]

Super excited for tonight's game because of the new additions. GLG!

 

[Pookie]

Marlies has been a gritty team. Dubas first major trade was for Muzzin, a very gritty player. His consistent position since his junior days has been that he wants those attributes, he just doesn't prioritize them over play-driving qualities.

It's just a narrative that some can't shake because they somehow see that and being a believer in analytics as mutually exclusive concepts.

“There is concern the Maple Leafs — a group that, comparatively, eschews penalties and body checking — lack the sandpaper on the roster to survive a long, gruelling playoff run, where whistles tend to get tucked away.

Dubas said in constructing his roster — now free of rugged characters like Matt Martin, Leo Komarov and Roman Polak — he looks at the Atlantic Division rivals first.

“For whatever reason, that takes on a life of its own — the whole ‘toughness’ question. I look at Tampa Bay, they’re eight or nine points ahead of us now, and they built their team their way. I understand it’s at every level, whether it’s been Sault Ste. Marie or the Marlies, it’s been the same question,” Dubas said.

“I don’t buy it, myself. I know that there are a lot of pundits that say you have to have it, but I look at the teams that have had success, and I don’t think bringing in one big person is going to change our culture — and it’s not going to have us carry on with the process we’ve started.

“We want to have skill, we want to be fast, and we want to be competitive. I don’t really think that the way that the league is going that having someone that can come in and fight or anything like that is going to change that. We’ve got a way that we want to play, and we’re just going to carry on with that. In the end, people will judge whether it was effective.”

Leafs GM Kyle Dubas talks offer sheets, toughness and blue-line status - Sportsnet.ca
​

Looks like Dubas has judged his own work ineffective in bringing back a player like Martin was.

Thank goodness he can admit a mistake.

 

[Nithoniniel]

“There is concern the Maple Leafs — a group that, comparatively, eschews penalties and body checking — lack the sandpaper on the roster to survive a long, gruelling playoff run, where whistles tend to get tucked away.

Dubas said in constructing his roster — now free of rugged characters like Matt Martin, Leo Komarov and Roman Polak — he looks at the Atlantic Division rivals first.

“For whatever reason, that takes on a life of its own — the whole ‘toughness’ question. I look at Tampa Bay, they’re eight or nine points ahead of us now, and they built their team their way. I understand it’s at every level, whether it’s been Sault Ste. Marie or the Marlies, it’s been the same question,” Dubas said.

“I don’t buy it, myself. I know that there are a lot of pundits that say you have to have it, but I look at the teams that have had success, and I don’t think bringing in one big person is going to change our culture — and it’s not going to have us carry on with the process we’ve started.

“We want to have skill, we want to be fast, and we want to be competitive. I don’t really think that the way that the league is going that having someone that can come in and fight or anything like that is going to change that. We’ve got a way that we want to play, and we’re just going to carry on with that. In the end, people will judge whether it was effective.”

Leafs GM Kyle Dubas talks offer sheets, toughness and blue-line status - Sportsnet.ca
​

Looks like Dubas has judged his own work ineffective in bringing back a player like Martin was.

Thank goodness he can admit a mistake.

It's pretty amazing that you read that quote and think it means that he's got no interest in grit or toughness.

Almost as amazing as your inability to see the difference between Clifford and Martin.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

“There is concern the Maple Leafs — a group that, comparatively, eschews penalties and body checking — lack the sandpaper on the roster to survive a long, gruelling playoff run, where whistles tend to get tucked away.

Dubas said in constructing his roster — now free of rugged characters like Matt Martin, Leo Komarov and Roman Polak — he looks at the Atlantic Division rivals first.

“For whatever reason, that takes on a life of its own — the whole ‘toughness’ question. I look at Tampa Bay, they’re eight or nine points ahead of us now, and they built their team their way. I understand it’s at every level, whether it’s been Sault Ste. Marie or the Marlies, it’s been the same question,” Dubas said.

“I don’t buy it, myself. I know that there are a lot of pundits that say you have to have it, but I look at the teams that have had success, and I don’t think bringing in one big person is going to change our culture — and it’s not going to have us carry on with the process we’ve started.

“We want to have skill, we want to be fast, and we want to be competitive. I don’t really think that the way that the league is going that having someone that can come in and fight or anything like that is going to change that. We’ve got a way that we want to play, and we’re just going to carry on with that. In the end, people will judge whether it was effective.”

Leafs GM Kyle Dubas talks offer sheets, toughness and blue-line status - Sportsnet.ca
​

Looks like Dubas has judged his own work ineffective in bringing back a player like Martin was.

Thank goodness he can admit a mistake.

Yeah there is a big difference between Martin and Clifford...

If Martin was better defensively and a better hockey player, Dubas may have been more inclined to keep him too.

 

[DarkKnight]

Marlies has been a gritty team. Dubas first major trade was for Muzzin, a very gritty player. His consistent position since his junior days has been that he wants those attributes, he just doesn't prioritize them over play-driving qualities.

It's just a narrative that some can't shake because they somehow see that and being a believer in analytics as mutually exclusive concepts.

Aren’t all AHL teams gritty? I mean seriously, that’s the league.

 

[Dayjobdave]

Martin had injuries which had reduced his effectiveness, and he cost 2.5 mil per to sit in the press box.

if we just replaced his grit (I would say more than replaced, Clifford is scary) with a solid defensive player on an 800k to us cap hit, that’s excellent.

whether Dubas believed we needed a grit player and couldn’t find one, or didn’t believe and just got one, is immaterial. We have one, As a fan I’m glad we have one because it will help protect our boys, and we get to watch the result

 

[DarkKnight]

Martin had injuries which had reduced his effectiveness, and he cost 2.5 mil per to sit in the press box.

if we just replaced his grit (I would say more than replaced, Clifford is scary) with a solid defensive player on an 800k to us cap hit, that’s excellent.

whether Dubas believed we needed a grit player and couldn’t find one, or didn’t believe and just got one, is immaterial. We have one, As a fan I’m glad we have one because it will help protect our boys, and we get to watch the result

I think it more, when Dubas didn’t go after grit it was the right call, and now that he’s added grit it’s the right call. I mean the guy can’t lose around here.

 

[Gary Nylund]

@Gary Nylund

Re: "We definitely need picks, it's just that we needed a backup goalie and a guy like Clifford more IMO. We still have a lot of picks and most importantly, we still have our top prospects."

I agree. I acknowledged that in the 1st paragraph of my post as follows:

"Qty two 3rd rounders isn't that big of a deal. And, somehow we found ourselves in a corner without a reliable backup that we could count on. So we addressed an obvious and necessary need, so that's the good part of this, at least short term.

However, as I mentioned in the post, it wasn't just about "this trade" & the two 3rds that were lost. A lot depends on the definition of "lots of picks" I guess. But two 1sts, two 2nds & two 3rds is not exactly a small amount of picks (quantity or quality wise). That's a trend versus an one-off occurrence.

I think we'd need to be extremely lucky for us not to be impacted by this some time in the future. Other teams like Pittsburgh, L.A. and Chicago have found this out and were all impacted eventually. They eventually found out how difficult it was to maintain their high level of success without replenishing their prospect pools with good, low cost ELC talent.

The difference between those teams and us though is those teams had multiple Cup wins versus what we've accomplished. You'd expect them to run out of gas so-to-speak eventually. But, we haven't even really started.

It was also kind of ironic how we've reversed our stance on this subject in just a couple of years.

There's some nuance here, so hopefully this won't fall into the more simplistic bucket of "we needed to do it". I agree with that, but also think like most things, it will have (longer term) consequences.

Would have been easier if the previous thread wasn't closed, so sorry about that.

I think I get what you're saying and I agree picks are important. I think it's natural though that when a team gets good, priorities shift. The impact of trading these picks is also lessened by the fact that earlier we were sellers and picked up a bunch of picks. I would say that each trade should be evaluated on it's own merit and if what you get in return is good enough then I think trading picks is OK, for example one 1st/2nd was used to get Andersen who's the best starter we've had since Belfour, definitely worth it IMO. And then the other was used to get rid of Marleau, if we don't do that then what happens? Are we unable to keep Kapanen and Johnsson? How much are those guys worth? I'm also not sure we can look at all these trades and call it a trend, after all only one of these 1st rounders was traded by Dubas, the other was Lou so there's that as well.

If we resign Clifford (and I believe that is the plan) I just love this trade. He's exactly what this team has been missing IMHO and I think he could have a huge impact on our overall compete level. If I'm right then he alone will be worth what we gave up.

Picks have value, no question about it. But I wouldn't overstate it either. Someone posted somewhere the guys that were picked with the picks we gave up for Boyle and Plecanek, doesn't look like those picks amounted to much. Now of course that doesn't always happen and if we draft well we could get really good players in the 2nd round, I'm just saying we shouldn't overstate the value of picks outside the 1st round. Picks have value, no doubt about it but we shouldn't get dogmatic about it and say never trade picks either. I'll say it again - judge every move on it's own merit and I like the moves Dubas has made, I like them a lot.

 

[4thline]

It's pretty amazing that you read that quote and think it means that he's got no interest in grit or toughness.

Almost as amazing as your inability to see the difference between Clifford and Martin.

Hey, the guy that drafted Darnell Nurse, was David's Broll loudest supporter at the OHL level, loved and kept guys like Greening and Clune around, picked Marchment as his major ECHL development project, and over the last two years has brought in our two toughest players and a coach who's MO isn't "turn the other cheek and get em on the PP" just absolutely hates grit and toughness. It's not a question of priorities or cap allocation, he simply has no use for them. Not tipping your hand in public speaks way louder than actions.

 

[Pookie]

Yeah there is a big difference between Martin and Clifford...

If Martin was better defensively and a better hockey player, Dubas may have been more inclined to keep him too.

You’ve seen the career totals right?

Even when influenced by being on a bottom feeder vs a Cup champ for most of their respectively careers.... very similar players.

Dubas made a mistake in ridding the roster of physicality. He corrected it partially by bringing back a Martin.

 

[Bomber0104]

I think it more, when Dubas didn’t go after grit it was the right call, and now that he’s added grit it’s the right call. I mean the guy can’t lose around here.

That's pretty much it.

The same people who are now applauding Clifford coming aboard are the same ones that would freak out at posters for suggesting that's the type of player(s) this team is missing.

 

[saltming]

“There is concern the Maple Leafs — a group that, comparatively, eschews penalties and body checking — lack the sandpaper on the roster to survive a long, gruelling playoff run, where whistles tend to get tucked away.

Dubas said in constructing his roster — now free of rugged characters like Matt Martin, Leo Komarov and Roman Polak — he looks at the Atlantic Division rivals first.

“For whatever reason, that takes on a life of its own — the whole ‘toughness’ question. I look at Tampa Bay, they’re eight or nine points ahead of us now, and they built their team their way. I understand it’s at every level, whether it’s been Sault Ste. Marie or the Marlies, it’s been the same question,” Dubas said.

“I don’t buy it, myself. I know that there are a lot of pundits that say you have to have it, but I look at the teams that have had success, and I don’t think bringing in one big person is going to change our culture — and it’s not going to have us carry on with the process we’ve started.

“We want to have skill, we want to be fast, and we want to be competitive. I don’t really think that the way that the league is going that having someone that can come in and fight or anything like that is going to change that. We’ve got a way that we want to play, and we’re just going to carry on with that. In the end, people will judge whether it was effective.”

Leafs GM Kyle Dubas talks offer sheets, toughness and blue-line status - Sportsnet.ca
​

Looks like Dubas has judged his own work ineffective in bringing back a player like Martin was.

Thank goodness he can admit a mistake.

Dubas' thoughts couldn't be more clear

“He has some elements that we don’t have in abundance,” Dubas said. “Number 1 is, he’s still a player that you don’t have to hide. He doesn’t need to play two or three minutes a night.

“He’ll be able to play in the bottom end of our lineup and do those things with our group and hopefully get our team onto offense. And let our big guys come out in the offensive zone and roll from there.”

“He’ll make a big impact here right away, knowing his personality,” Dubas said Thursday. “If you have those elements to your game that you’re physical and competitive and you have a presence to you, you have to be able to play.
“He can play — and those guys aren’t in abundance anymore. I think that’s why when they’re available, the cost is pretty high.”

Maple Leafs' Dubas believes Clifford trade will make 'big impact' - Sportsnet.ca
It's what people have been saying to you all along, but you seem to only want to drive your narrative.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I think it more, when Dubas didn’t go after grit it was the right call, and now that he’s added grit it’s the right call. I mean the guy can’t lose around here.

There's grit like Martin, who couldn't crack our lineup, and grit like Clifford who like Dubas said, you don't have to hide. Guys like that are rare these days and costly

 

[al secord]

I think it more, when Dubas didn’t go after grit it was the right call, and now that he’s added grit it’s the right call. I mean the guy can’t lose around here.

He can't win with others.

 

[KingsHockey24]

Fun fact most fan bases probably don't know is that Clifford at times wore the C for the Kings.

 

[saltming]

Fun fact most fan bases probably don't know is that Clifford at times wore the C for the Kings.

What's the context here?

 

[al secord]

What's the context here?

We should be expecting a Mats-like performer.

 

[saltming]

We should be expecting a Mats-like performer.

Like a welcoming mat?