Confirmed with Link: Torey Krug (7 years @ $6.5m)

[ezcreepin]

This seems correct. The offer before FA was likely the discussed 8x8. (Maybe not though)

If that was the case then even if he didn’t say the words “I reject”, he did so by going to FA. The offer was rejected because the offer had a predetermined timeline. Inaction is therefore action. We cannot give 8 years after the predetermined time.

I usually agree with Easton on a lot of things, but this one I cannot. Blues most definitely offered an 8 year contract, to which Alex probably said let me think on it OR he said that is too low. If the latter was the answer, I have to assume Army said this is the max he can go to right now and that this 8-year deal is off the table (obviously) after that allotted time. If the answer was the former, then it's safe to assume he didn't get back to Army in time, therefore removing the 8 -year deal off the table. Either way, Petro's answer, regardless if he rejected the offer or not, was in and of itself, a rejection to the contract. As Rush said in Freewill, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice," this is exactly the scenario at hand. And, if it's true that he neither rejected nor accepted the offer, his agent should be fired, because he should know that going into free agency nullifies the 8-year deal plus we know teams can't wait for their players to make decisions before signing free agents. As Petro says, this is a business.

 

[EastonBlues22]

From JR's recent article:



'It caught me off guard': Alex Pietrangelo era ends as Blues sign Torey Krug

That was before the FA period started. What FA is going to agree then without testing the market at that point?

I was under the impression there was to be contact during FA as well. Are you saying that never happened?

Pietrangelo made it pretty clear he hadn't shut the door on the Blues, and it seems like a no-brainer to at least touch base after FA starts to see if Pietrangelo's market is what he thought it was.

 

[ezcreepin]

if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice

Someone listens to Rush

 

[TruBlu]

if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice

Why do I have a sudden urge to listen to rush?

 

[MissouriMook]

That was before the FA period started. What FA is going to agree then without testing the market at that point?

I was under the impression there was to be contact during FA as well. Are you saying that never happened?

Pietrangelo made it pretty clear he hadn't shut the door on the Blues, and it seems like a no-brainer to at least touch base after FA starts to see if Pietrangelo's market is what he thought it was.

That's one hell of a leap of faith if you think there is no way Petro wouldn't have found an offer to his liking and signed it before giving the Blues a chance to match or beat it. "I'm not shutting the door" is about as good as "the check is in the mail" as far as the business side of these things. You can choose to believe Petro wouldn't have done that but forgive me if I find you naïve for doing so.

 

[TruBlu]

That was before the FA period started. What FA is going to agree then without testing the market at that point?

I was under the impression there was to be contact during FA as well. Are you saying that never happened?

Pietrangelo made it pretty clear he hadn't shut the door on the Blues, and it seems like a no-brainer to at least touch base after FA starts to see if Pietrangelo's market is what he thought it was.

I've never seen anyone come right out and say they are shutting the door on anyone when in contract negotiations. It effectively lets everyone know there's one less team to have to contend with. The only thing I can think is that petro thought because DA offered the nmc and bonuses, when he's never done that before, he was in a better position than he was. That could be where the surprise came from. I don't believe DA hung up the phone with him Thursday night without making it clear he was going to move forward with looking at other options.

 

[ezcreepin]

I've never seen anyone come right out and say they are shutting the door on anyone when in contract negotiations. It effectively lets everyone know there's one less team to have to contend with. The only thing I can think is that petro thought because DA offered the nmc and bonuses, when he's never done that before, he was in a better position than he was. That could be where the surprise came from. I don't believe DA hung up the phone with him Thursday night without making it clear he was going to move forward with looking at other options.

Armstrong may be a difficult negotiator, but he's not dumb. He's fair and I'm going to go out on an limb and say he did his due diligence and let Petro know he would be looking at other options in the meantime

 

[Reality Czech]

I agree 100% with Easton. Army completely screwed the pooch on this because he didn't bother to wait for an answer. If he chose to wait we still would have Pietrangelo whether you want to admit it for not. This is on Army.

Petro knew what the offer was on Thursday and decided not to take it. Not sure why he would change his mind so quickly. You are assuming that Petro was waiting by the phone for the Blues to up their offer but maybe that isn't the case.

 

[Novacain]

Petro knew what the offer was on Thursday and decided not to take it. Not sure why he would change his mind so quickly. You are assuming that Petro was waiting by the phone for the Blues to up their offer but maybe that isn't the case.

Or maybe Petro told them he’d give the Blues a chance to match any offers given to him before he signed anywhere, and was still hoping in spite of his disagreements with Army that he could still work a deal out. Which would explain his surprise when the Blues didn’t give him a chance.

Hey, if you others are gonna make up shit to fit your narrative, I might as well do it too.

 

[EastonBlues22]

That's one hell of a leap of faith if you think there is no way Petro wouldn't have found an offer to his liking and signed it before giving the Blues a chance to match or beat it. "I'm not shutting the door" is about as good as "the check is in the mail" as far as the business side of these things. You can choose to believe Petro wouldn't have done that but forgive me if I find you naïve for doing so.

You're all about taking Armstrong at face value, which I tend to agree with (though I'm sure he's presenting things in a light favorable to his side), but balk at extending that same courtesy to the other side. Seems like a bit of a double standard to me.

What has Pietrangelo ever done to make you think he isn't telling the truth?

 

[EastonBlues22]

I've never seen anyone come right out and say they are shutting the door on anyone when in contract negotiations. It effectively lets everyone know there's one less team to have to contend with. The only thing I can think is that petro thought because DA offered the nmc and bonuses, when he's never done that before, he was in a better position than he was. That could be where the surprise came from. I don't believe DA hung up the phone with him Thursday night without making it clear he was going to move forward with looking at other options.

If that's true, then why was Pietrangelo caught off guard when he did?

Those two things don't jive.

 

[stl76]

That was before the FA period started. What FA is going to agree then without testing the market at that point?

I was under the impression there was to be contact during FA as well. Are you saying that never happened?

Pietrangelo made it pretty clear he hadn't shut the door on the Blues, and it seems like a no-brainer to at least touch base after FA starts to see if Pietrangelo's market is what he thought it was.

So you're asking if the Blues reached out to Pietrangelo after he rejected the Blues offer late Thursday night but before the Krug signing was finalized afternoon/evening? I have no idea, haven't seen any reporting either way that I can recall.

Frankly tho, I don't think it really matters. By that point both sides had probably made their views and expectations perfectly clear to the other side.

 

[TruBlu]

If that's true, then why was Pietrangelo caught off guard when he did?

Those two things don't jive.

Maybe Petro's agent had him convinced there's no way they'll make a move until they hear from him. Maybe petro lied. I'm kind of shocked that a player would legitimately believe a gm as experienced as DA, or really any nhl level gm, would agree to letting the team levy all the risk while letting a player go out and basically better their position. That's like telling your girlfriend you're not happy and asking if you can go sleep around with a few girls to see if you're happier, and then asking her to still be there if you decide you made a mistake.

 

[EastonBlues22]

So you're asking if the Blues reached out to Pietrangelo after he rejected the Blues offer late Thursday night but before the Krug signing was finalized afternoon/evening? I have no idea, haven't seen any reporting either way that I can recall.

Frankly tho, I don't think it really matters. By that point both sides had probably made their views and expectations perfectly clear to the other side.

It matters because before FA Pietrangelo doesn't know if the Blues offer is the best one on the table. After FA opens, he does.

It kind of seems like important information that might drastically affect the dynamics of the conversation.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Maybe Petro's agent had him convinced there's no way they'll make a move until they hear from him. Maybe petro lied. I'm kind of shocked that a player would legitimately believe a gm as experienced as DA, or really any nhl level gm, would agree to letting the team levy all the risk while letting a player go out and basically better their position. That's like telling your girlfriend you're not happy and asking if you can go sleep around with a few girls to see if you're happier, and then asking her to still be there if you decide you made a mistake.

Seems like an odd analogy for what is a fairly standard business practice. You can't set the background of this being just good business and then paint Armstrong as a jilted lover being asked to do unreasonable things by participating in said business.

You paint this like the risk is one-way. It's not. Prime suitors can dry up for Pietrangelo just as easily as prime players can dry up for GMs. Both sides are in this dance together. Multiple GMs are waiting on Pietrangelo right now, and they don't seem to have a problem with that...because, you know, they need a #1 D and they might get Pietrangelo.

It would be one thing if Krug was some sort of viable alternative, but he's not. He fills a different sort of niche altogether, and I don't think it's out of line to say that niche is not a super pressing one. How many Blues fans thought a 7 x $6.5M PMD/PP specialist, even if a very good one, was high on the shopping list of team needs this offseason?

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

It matters because before FA Pietrangelo doesn't know if the Blues offer is the best one on the table. After FA opens, he does.

It kind of seems like important information that might drastically affect the dynamics of the conversation.

But the Blues offer then isn’t as good as the Blues’ offer he had already nixed (7 vs 8 years). It doesn’t seem likely that the Blues inferior offer is suddenly going to be good enough.

What specifically do you think Armstrong should have done? Not pursue other options? For how long?

He talked to at least Brodie and Krug. He can’t negotiate with those guys if he can’t offer them a contract. The situation you describe puts the Blues’ management at a ridiculous disadvantage.

It’s not reasonable to leave Pietro in charge of the timing for when the Blues can address personnel moves. They had a guy on the line (Krug) who actually wants to be here (in contrast to Pietro’s actions).

 

[Spektre]

Too soon?? I can see smoke coming out of @Ranksu ears

 

[TruBlu]

Too soon?? I can see smoke coming out of Ranksu’s ears


View attachment 372012

Bahahaha

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Seems like an odd analogy for what is a fairly standard business practice. You can't set the background of this being just good business and then paint Armstrong as a jilted lover being asked to do unreasonable things by participating in said business.

You paint this like the risk is one-way. It's not. Prime suitors can dry up for Pietrangelo just as easily as prime players can dry up for GMs. Both sides are in this dance together. Multiple GMs are waiting on Pietrangelo right now, and they don't seem to have a problem with that...because, you know, they need a #1 D and they might get Pietrangelo.

It would be one thing if Krug was some sort of viable alternative, but he's not. He fills a different sort of niche altogether, and I don't think it's out of line to say that niche is not a super pressing one. How many Blues fans thought a 7 x $6.5M PMD/PP specialist, even if a very good one, was high on the shopping list of team needs this offseason?

The ‘other GMs’ include pretty much Vegas from what I can tell. They have additional roster moves they need to make to accommodate Pietro. Inaction simply leaves them with the team they already had. I don’t think they’re particularly harmed by the delay.

I can’t detect another team that is holding salary in hopes of attracting Pietro. I CAN see an example in Toronto of another team who talked to him and moved on. Which other GMs are passing on guys now to give Pietro time to mull it over?

I agree with you that Prime suitors can dry up. I think they have. That’s on Pietro. The acquisition cost for obtaining Pietro for Vegas is starting to look like it’s going to be so high it detracts from their competitiveness.

 

[TruBlu]

Petros hold out may have cost the blues a 1D and him a lot of money. In the end everyone loses.

 

[Xanadude]

The ‘other GMs’ include pretty much Vegas from what I can tell. They have additional roster moves they need to make to accommodate Pietro. Inaction simply leaves them with the team they already had. I don’t think they’re particularly harmed by the delay.

I can’t detect another team that is holding salary in hopes of attracting Pietro. I CAN see an example in Toronto of another team who talked to him and moved on. Which other GMs are passing on guys now to give Pietro time to mull it over?

I agree with you that Prime suitors can dry up. I think they have. That’s on Pietro. The acquisition cost for obtaining Pietro for Vegas is starting to look like it’s going to be so high it detracts from their competitiveness.

Obviously Petro makes Vegas much better, but damn if they aren't going to lose some major pieces to fit him, even if they send out Fleury without retention.

 

[EastonBlues22]

But the Blues offer then isn’t as good as the Blues’ offer he had already nixed (7 vs 8 years). It doesn’t seem likely that the Blues inferior offer is suddenly going to be good enough.

Because if it's still the best, it's still the best.

What specifically do you think Armstrong should have done? Not pursue other options? For how long?

Already covered this in another post.

He talked to at least Brodie and Krug. He can’t negotiate with those guys if he can’t offer them a contract. The situation you describe puts the Blues’ management at a ridiculous disadvantage.

It's weird to me that (from what we've heard) being one of the top two teams in the running for the crown jewel of the FA class somehow keeps getting painted as being a ridiculous disadvantaged position just because you're not getting an immediate answer. I think a number of GMs would love to be in that position, and Vegas seems to be sitting pretty happy now because they stuck it out.

To me, it boils down to whether or not the risk is worth taking. I think it's a no-brainer to wait on the only legitimate #1 D when you really need that #1 D, and there aren't really any options elsewhere that would offer improvements elsewhere of similar impact.

It’s not reasonable to leave Pietro in charge of the timing for when the Blues can address personnel moves. They had a guy on the line (Krug) who actually wants to be here (in contrast to Pietro’s actions).

Pietrangelo's actions after the start of FA didn't lean toward any specific team, and certainly didn't preclude signing with the Blues. Most seemed to feel the Blues were still the favorite. That may or may not be accurate, but those impressions certainly wouldn't have existed if Pietrangelo's actions were making it evident that he didn't want to be here.

Anyway, we got a guy who wants to be here (or at least who wants the contract the Blues offered over any alternatives he might have had), which would be great if he was the guy we needed. But, IMO, he's not (and nobody else is, either), so I don't see our signing Krug as anything that needed to be particularly urgent. If we waited and missed out on Pietrangelo, I wasn't going to be devastated if we missed out on Krug as well. I honestly could not have cared less.

 

[Celtic Note]

It would be one thing if Krug was some sort of viable alternative, but he's not. He fills a different sort of niche altogether, and I don't think it's out of line to say that niche is not a super pressing one. How many Blues fans thought a 7 x $6.5M PMD/PP specialist, even if a very good one, was high on the shopping list of team needs this offseason?

In the thread I made a while back, I think it was pretty clear that the consensus for bringing in someone like Krug and losing Petro was not well received.

 

[EastonBlues22]

In the thread I made a while back, I think it was pretty clear that the consensus for bringing in someone like Krug and losing Petro was not well received.

Which seems pretty reasonable to me, but yet a lot of people here seem to be pretty ok with it all of a sudden.

Put the signing in a vacuum by ignoring Pietrangelo altogether for a moment, and I feel like there should be a lot more discussion about whether this is a good contract to be giving out, whether Krug was a good player to target, how this alters the dynamic of the team/defense, and whether the team is positioned to be a legitimate contender as it currently stands.

To me, this is far from a no-brainer signing as it stands alone.

 

[ezcreepin]

Which seems pretty reasonable to me, but yet a lot of people here seem to be pretty ok with it all of a sudden.

Put the signing in a vacuum by ignoring Pietrangelo altogether for a moment, and I feel like there should be a lot more discussion about whether this is a good contract to be giving out, whether Krug was a good player to target, how this alters the dynamic of the team/defense, and whether the team is positioned to be a legitimate contender as it currently stands.

To me, this is far from a no-brainer signing as it stands alone.

Now remove the vacuum and assume the worst in the Pietrangelo talks. Who do you sign if he walks? Are Barrie, Brodie, Shattenkirk, and Hamonic better than Krug? How do they fit within the Blues d-corps? Barrie is pretty bad in his own end, but good for 40-50 points a year, Brodie I believe would've signed in Toronto before anywhere else, Shattenkirk is a no for me, Hamonic maybe? But he's a righty and we already have 2 adequate righties on the team. I just think that there has to be something we don't know about for Army to go and sign a guy like Krug before waiting to see what Pietranglo would be offered in Vegas and elsewhere. And I find it surprising that you, of all people, feel this way about the situation.