Confirmed with Link: [TOR/OTT] Matt Murray (25% retention), a 3rd in 2023 and a 7th in 2024 for Future Considerations.

[Mess]

Not a huge Campbell fan but why wouldn’t they have just brought him back If this was the plan?

Leafs could just have stayed with Freddy Andersen for that matter, who signed for 2 years at $4.5 mil, as we didn't gain anything by moving to Campbell/Mrazek,

His stats this year 52 games .. 35-14-3 record with .922 sv% (2nd best overall) and 2.17 GAA. (3rd best)

I'd imagine Leafs management are hoping those are the exact kinds of #'s for similar cap usage they can get from Matt Murray now, only with a better result come playoff time than Andersen was unable to deliver but Campbell failed to as well, particularly in series deciding games.

 

[kb]

Not a huge Campbell fan but why wouldn’t they have just brought him back If this was the plan?

Because you would have to commit to at least 5 seasons at $5 million.

He may get less term in UFA, but that is only because now the Leafs aren't bidding against whomever eventually signs him.

 

[ToneDog]

Same with any and every player. Imagine paying assets and having that happen?

Let's revist what you said yesterday and see how it went.


He was better than any goalie we had in the "goals saved vs expected", for what it's worth. He was +3.2 (28th)
Every goalie the Leafs had was a negative in that category. (Jack was 68th among all goalies)
So if you work with this and realize he won't be the starter, suddenly you can see that maybe it's not the worst thing in the world for him to play the Mrazek role this season. <<<< OOOooops Murray is the starter and maybe it is the worst thing in the world.


Sens have zero leverage. None. <<< Perhaps you should have emailed Kyle. Apparently nobody told Dumb Dumb Dorion.

They either pay $7.5 million over the next 2 years in retention or $10 million in buyout. Either way, the Leafs don't care. If the Sens try to drive any sort of a bargain, the Leafs will just let them buy out Murray and then circle back to him even more cheaply. <<< Ah so that is what they did not do.

People twist themselves into knots trying to misrepresent situations....


The return will solely depend on how desperately they want to get out from under the contract. << So who was the more desperate GM ??

If he doesn't get bought out (and he can't while on IR), the Sens are on the hook for his $7 million in salary this season, plus whatever they decide to do with him for next season when his salary is $8 million ($5.33 if bought out). So a minimum of $12.33 M spent vs $7.5 M if they give full retention.

They just need to negotiate the value of saving the Sens nearly $5million. If they can't agree, then Ottawa keeps him and his full cap hit for the season. <<< Oops another fail



But as you say, not only does Ottawa want/need to settle Murray's future now, and the Leafs can't be waiting for the second buyout window. So going beyond tomorrow basically leaves Ottawa with no suitors, and they will either be forced to buy him out during the second window (if healthy), or keep him and his cash obligations for at least one more season, escalating his cost to the organization.

Toronto does have some leverage here as they can pivot elsewhere. <<< Really, so why didn't Dubas use it ??



So today you are here defending the trade and shitting on people who are critizing it for some of the same reasons you posted yesterday. Sounds kind of a hypocrite to me. But hey keep up the hard work defending your boy because he is not making it easy on his fanboys.

Later, once again I have seen enough of your bullshit and personal attacks on posters who's opinions differ than yours.

Enjoy your life kissing Dubas' ass.

 

[29Potvin]

Campbell wants a five year contract. A commitment to a goalie with mediocre stats for five years, is less palatable than a commitment for two years.

And the fact that Murray has won two cups and is 2 years younger. Not a fan of this trade as i feel we should have got more retained or better picks. If we get a 1b type of guy for cheap like Hill/Blackwood or sign a UFA for cheap we should be fine. This was not the offseason to pay for a goalie long term

 

[ACC1224]

Campbell wants a five year contract. A commitment to a goalie with mediocre stats for five years, is less palatable than a commitment for two years.

He could always be moved after two if necessary. They need to worry about today not a few years from. Hopefully this wasn’t the main reason behind this.

 

[Tak7]

Why do you do this? Why prop up Dubas by putting another GM down?

Dubas could not pay for Jack because he didn't. They made an offer for him last year. This offseason they never even called him. Jack was not an option. Dubas has moved on from him. This is why TOR lost this deal. Dubas' options were the following:

1. Murray
2. Woll/Källgren

Now I don't want to just put down Kyle completely. If Murray bounces back then Dubas looks great (in regards to this deal).

Just to add: the 6 million dollars left will go into the RFAs, a 3rd line forward, and whole 4th line. Heck he could possibly spend 3 million on the 4th line alone.

What's so sacrilege about comparing GMs? We constantly hear about the Leafs being in "cap hell", but it's not true - spending lots of money, and spending lots of money badly are 2 different things.

While I don't like the Murray contract, and I worry about the way the John Tavares deal will age, the Leafs aren't facing big cap issues - I look at teams like San Jose, who spend lots of money very badly on lots of aging players for lots of term, as a team in cap hell. Not the Leafs.

Dubas also had plenty of other options:

1. Extend Campbell at ~5x5
2. Go after Kuemper at ~6x5
3. Go the trade route for an unproven netminder: Husso, Nedelkovic, etc
4. Go the trade route for an overhyped goaltender: Gibson
5. Go the free agent route for an unproven goaltender: Samsonov, Comrie.
6. Bet on experience with Matt Murray.

While I'm not a fan of this deal, I'm also struggling with alternatives to what I would have done differently - I'm just not convinced there's tons of options out there that represent clear upgrades over what the Leafs had.

 

[kb]

Not one that trumped the #73 that Yzerman sent to St. L for Husso.

And for that, all Leaf fans should be eternally grateful. If people want to talk about Murray being a Hail Mary, this guy had a 3-4 week heater and is getting paid more for longer, and cost a 3rd to do it.

That's a bigger risk IMO.

 

[CupcakeSprinkles]

Personally, I'm going to wait another month or two before I judge this deal. There's a lot of "what ifs" and a decent amount of cap space to use. We are going to need another back-up goalie. Last year, Dubas made a lot stellar moves aside from Mrazek signing.

 

[stealth1]

How many people on here realize Murray had a better year than Campbell if you're looking at expected goals?

Also, the amount of people in the media who still don't realize that the leafs were a good defensive team this year is maddening.

Sorry expected goals is a junk stat. Save% is a better telling of how good a goalie is.

 

[kb]

Difference is Murray has been injury prone the last few years.

And that risk is mitigated by the lower AAV and term, plus taking on a 3rd/7th for nothing but cap space.

If Husso doesn't break out, this will look very ugly.

 

[Fogelhund]

He could always be moved after two if necessary. They need to worry about today not a few years from. Hopefully this wasn’t the main reason behind this.

The big boys contracts are up in two years. People (rightfully) criticize Dubas for paying to get rid of Mrazek.... and we are now suggesting to sign Campbell to a five year deal, and pay to get rid of him after two?

 

[stealth1]

And for that, all Leaf fans should be eternally grateful. If people want to talk about Murray being a Hail Mary, this guy had a 3-4 week heater and is getting paid more for longer, and cost a 3rd to do it.

That's a bigger risk IMO.

Maybe but the BIG DIFFERENCE is one team is still rebuilding while one is trying to win a cup.

 

[CupcakeSprinkles]

What's so sacrilege about comparing GMs? We constantly hear about the Leafs being in "cap hell", but it's not true - spending lots of money, and spending lots of money badly are 2 different things.

While I don't like the Murray contract, and I worry about the way the John Tavares deal will age, the Leafs aren't facing big cap issues - I look at teams like San Jose, who spend lots of money very badly on lots of aging players for lots of term, as a team in cap hell. Not the Leafs.

Dubas also had plenty of other options:

1. Extend Campbell at ~5x5
2. Go after Kuemper at ~6x5
3. Go the trade route for an unproven netminder: Husso, Nedelkovic, etc
4. Go the trade route for an overhyped goaltender: Gibson
5. Go the free agent route for an unproven goaltender: Samsonov, Comrie.
6. Bet on experience with Matt Murray.

While I'm not a fan of this deal, I'm also struggling with alternatives to what I would have done differently - I'm just not convinced there's tons of options out there that represent clear upgrades over what the Leafs had.

6 a. Bet on experience with Matt Murray
6 b. Sign a veteran back-up to a cheap deal / unproven back-up.

 

[stealth1]

And that risk is mitigated by the lower AAV and term, plus taking on a 3rd/7th for nothing but cap space.

If Husso doesn't break out, this will look very ugly.

He's on a rebuilding team. If it doesn't work out they have time to look for better options.

 

[Tak7]

An anchor, no? Overpaid by 2-2.5 mill yes

Respectfully, you need to brush up on your player evaluation skills.

Two simple questions:

1 - if Marner was made available for trade today, do you think teams would be saying "he's only an $8.5m player, we don't want him?"

2 - If Marner was a free agent today, do you think he only gets $8.5m offers?

Feel free to answer when you get a minute: it should be a pretty simple one word answer for both.

 

[ToneDog]

And the fact that Murray has won two cups and is 2 years younger. Not a fan of this trade as i feel we should have got more retained or better picks. If we get a 1b type of guy for cheap like Hill/Blackwood or sign a UFA for cheap we should be fine. This was not the offseason to pay for a goalie long term

This was not an off season to find yourself in need of one goalie, let alone two. But Kyle will do Kyle.

 

[rielledup]

Sorry expected goals is a junk stat. Save% is a better telling of how good a goalie is.

How so? Expected goals actually takes into account the kind of shots a goalie faces.

 

[kb]

Lol and what do you expect to happen at the trade deadline when this blows up in his face. We also paid more to get rid of petr when we got in return. We trade down in the first with no goalie move we would have gotten more then we just got from the sens

When the move is universally panned by absolutely everyone it's probably not a good move.

We literally could have spun a wheel of cheap FA goalies picked two and ended up better.

If he doesn't play in the soo he's not on the team

What happens when Husso is a healthy scratch .900 goalie making $4.75 for 3 seasons?

It's just as likely as your scenario, in fact even more so as Husso has no history.

 

[colchar]

Difference is Murray has been injury prone the last few years.

Stop being logical. There is a spreadsheet somewhere that says Murray will win the Vezina and we all know spreadsheets never lie.

 

[Notsince67]

I’m waiting until 2029 to see how that 7th rounder turned out before passing judgement.

I'm waiting for game 6 and 7 of the playoffs for that 7th rounder because that is all that counts in hockey...or so I'm told.

 

[kb]

Suddenly Husso and Forsberg are 2 budding superstars who would have solved the Leafs goalie problems now.

 

[RoadWarrior]

When the sell to shanny is he might go on a cup run like he did when he was 23, he played for me in the Soo, and we can ltir him with no idea who is going to play in net if we do and shanny didn't laugh in his face then he's going to deserve the firing as much as dubas will if it blows up

I didn't say Shanahan should've bought the argument lol. But I'm sure Murray was oversold as a cup winner who can deliver in the playoffs with lower risk because of LTIR.

However that plan only works with a decent backup. Without a tandem the risk is massive.

 

[4thline]

As of today who would trade

Murray + 3rd +3rd +7th for Husso
Murray + 2nd + 3rd + 7th for Vanecek
Murray + 3rd +3rd +3rd +5th +7th for Georgiev

 

[Razz]

You guys are mad if you think our GM is gonna sign a risky contract beyond our Hart trophy player's contract expiry.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Respectfully, you need to brush up on your player evaluation skills.

Two simple questions:

1 - if Marner was made available for trade today, do you think teams would be saying "he's only an $8.5m player, we don't want him?"

2 - If Marner was a free agent today, do you think he only gets $8.5m offers?

Feel free to answer when you get a minute: it should be a pretty simple one word answer for both.

I'm not going down the Marner path further. Agree to disagree