Confirmed with Link: [TOR/OTT] Matt Murray (25% retention), a 3rd in 2023 and a 7th in 2024 for Future Considerations.

[Dekes For Days]

The first 1/2 of this very thread, where the majority of Leafs nation is outraged at how little the Leafs got only a 3rd and 7th and 25% retention to haul away an injury prone goalie on an unwanted ugly contract, similarly how the Leafs needed to add an asset to dump the Mrazek contract.

Now it has morphed into Murray is the missing piece and answer all Leafs problems in net, huge upgrade and the final solution to when we take on Conn Smythe and 2 time Stanley Cup winning Vasilevskiy and Tampa for the rematch again, only a speed bump now as we sail towards the Stanley Cup uncontested.

The first part seems to be the more realistic portion of the thread, and the later part now the wishful thinking part.

Neither are accurate or realistic representations.

As most neutral people can acknowledge, Murray is a goalie who has shown an ability to be an effective starter, and who has won multiple cups. He had a stretch of down years, before rebounding back to a decent goalie last year despite playing behind horrible defensive play. He has faced some injury struggles, but that was due in part to mishandling by the Ottawa medical team. Toronto has a world class medical team, Murray has familiarity with the coaching and management he will work with here, and they have reportedly identified some weaknesses in his approach that can be fixed.

In a field of similarly risky goalies, Murray at under 4.7m for 2 years + 2 free draft picks at no cost to the team is a reasonable acquisition, and every Leaf fan should be cheering him on to be successful.

 

[Mess]

I suspect this is what drove Leaf management thinking here.

Jack really didn’t rise to the occasion in those final games, and really didn’t last year against the Habs. He certainly played better than game 7 Freddie. Murray has been a big moment player, so I think management wanted that element of feistiness on the back end.

I believe that management believes Murray will be much better with the team in front of him competing for wins than with the team in front of him playing out the lottery string.

It will be great to watch if that’s the case.

Murray has been a big moment player ??

Here is Murray's record his last 2 playoff years in Pittsburgh

2019-20 NHL Playoff Results - Qualifying Round Best of 5 (70 game season).
========================================================

(#5) Pittsburgh Penguins [86 points] vs. (#12) Montreal Canadiens [71 points]

Aug 1 Montreal Canadiens 3 2 at Pittsburgh Penguins OT
Aug 3 Montreal Canadiens 1 3 at Pittsburgh Penguins
Aug 5 Pittsburgh Penguins 3 4 at Montreal Canadiens
Aug 7 Pittsburgh Penguins 0 2 at Montreal Canadiens

Montreal Canadiens win series 3 games to 1

While Toronto was losing to CBJ in 5 games ..
- Matt Murray on the heavily favored Pens was going 1-3 against the lowest ranked team in the playoffs. Looks like Murray didn't rise to the occasion against the lowly Habs either.

2018-19 NHL Playoff Results - Round 1
===============================================

(#4) New York Islanders [103 points] vs (#5) Pittsburgh Penguins [100 points]

Apr 10 Pittsburgh Penguins 3 4 at New York Islanders OT
Apr 12 Pittsburgh Penguins 1 3 at New York Islanders
Apr 14 New York Islanders 4 1 at Pittsburgh Penguins
Apr 16 New York Islanders 3 1 at Pittsburgh Penguins

New York Islanders win series 4 games to 0

NYI's sweep Matt Murray lead Pens in 4 games..
- Murray's record last 2 playoff series .. 1 win 7 losses before he was shipped off to Ottawa.
This is the player coming off 2 injury riddled seasons in Ottawa acquired as a contract dump, now being viewed as "clutch" playoff goalie the Leafs have been missing to go deep in the playoffs?

I apologize,, because I'm just not seeing this money goalie rising to the occasion that even if the Leafs had him the past 2 years against Montreal and Tampa Bay his past performance screams difference maker that Leafs fate would have been any better than Campbell delivered. Did he certainly play better than game 7 Freddie during this same overlapping time period while Leafs were losing to CBJ and Boston?

 

[Dekes For Days]

this sounds strangely similar to the Tavares justifications. Others wanted our target but Dubas rode in on his white stead and snatched them away.

Not sure what this has to do with Tavares at all. Multiple teams are generally interested in players.

I don't get how posters can't grasp the fact that players pass through waivers for different reasons and the logic that a team can't take that cap hit mid season eludes them.
I guess if it doesn't fit a narrative it's overlooked?

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

 

[saltming]

this sounds strangely similar to the Tavares justifications. Others wanted our target but Dubas rode in on his white stead and snatched them away.



You are right but it is probably similar to the posters that go in about his 2 cups……..5 years ago……..a lot of water under that bridge

For myself the cup argument is just taking about his experience vs Campbell. I don't see a rational to say just because he did it before he will do it again, but it does show that he is capable of doing it, track record.
The thing is, the argument of having won a cup to evaluate e a player is used at every position, not just goalies. Every team will say, "he comes with cup experience" because it's ligit valuable. Bringing players with that experience will transfer the knowledge of what it takes to go all the way. Specifically in the goalie position the tender will know what mental challenges await and how best to proceed.
Cup experience does not mean they will win it with the new team, but it is something of value.

 

[saltming]

Leafs have 1/2 their entire teams salary Cap wrapped up in 4 forwards and its always the goalies fault when they lose.


Clutch goal scoring not clutch goaltending is the Leafs downfall.

Murray has been a big moment player ??

Here is Murray's record his last 2 playoff years in Pittsburgh

2019-20 NHL Playoff Results - Qualifying Round Best of 5 (70 game season).
========================================================

(#5) Pittsburgh Penguins [86 points] vs. (#12) Montreal Canadiens [71 points]

Aug 1 Montreal Canadiens 3 2 at Pittsburgh Penguins OT
Aug 3 Montreal Canadiens 1 3 at Pittsburgh Penguins
Aug 5 Pittsburgh Penguins 3 4 at Montreal Canadiens
Aug 7 Pittsburgh Penguins 0 2 at Montreal Canadiens

Montreal Canadiens win series 3 games to 1

While Toronto was losing to CBJ in 5 games ..
- Matt Murray on the heavily favored Pens was going 1-3 against the lowest ranked team in the playoffs. Looks like Murray didn't rise to the occasion against the lowly Habs either.

2018-19 NHL Playoff Results - Round 1
===============================================

(#4) New York Islanders [103 points] vs (#5) Pittsburgh Penguins [100 points]

Apr 10 Pittsburgh Penguins 3 4 at New York Islanders OT
Apr 12 Pittsburgh Penguins 1 3 at New York Islanders
Apr 14 New York Islanders 4 1 at Pittsburgh Penguins
Apr 16 New York Islanders 3 1 at Pittsburgh Penguins

New York Islanders win series 4 games to 0

NYI's sweep Matt Murray lead Pens in 4 games..
- Murray's record last 2 playoff series .. 1 win 7 losses before he was shipped off to Ottawa.
This is the player coming off 2 injury riddled seasons in Ottawa acquired as a contract dump, now being viewed as "clutch" playoff goalie the Leafs are have been missing to go deep in the playoffs?

I apologize,, because I'm just not seeing this money goalie rising to the occasion that even if the Leafs had him the past 2 years against Montreal and Tampa Bay his past performance screams difference maker that Leafs fate would have been any better than Campbell delivered. Did he certainly play better than game 7 Freddie during this same overlapping time period?

So you use an argument that leafs nation always blames the goalie and its flawed logic but then you use the argument that it is Murray's fault his teams have failed in the last few playoffs as a standard against him.

There is a double standard here.

 

[Stephen]

The first 1/2 of this very thread, where the majority of Leafs nation is outraged at how little the Leafs got only a 3rd and 7th and 25% retention to haul away an injury prone goalie on an unwanted ugly contract, similarly how the Leafs needed to add an asset to dump the Mrazek contract.

Now it has morphed into Murray is the missing piece and answer all Leafs problems in net, huge upgrade and the final solution to when we take on Conn Smythe and 2 time Stanley Cup winning Vasilevskiy and Tampa for the rematch again, only a speed bump now as we sail towards the Stanley Cup uncontested.

The first part seems to be the more realistic portion of the thread, and the later part now the wishful thinking part.

I was so against this Murray deal when it happened, but I think you have to take the whole thread in its entirety as the Leafs internal monologue and debate as the trade was negotiated and completed, from an unlikely option to a calculated roll of the dice.

 

[deprw]

Well thought out and articulated post……..unfortunately it doesn’t make me feel any better about our goalie situation. Lol

I don't think there was any known solution this summer, that would have made me feel any better. Whole market was full of lottery tickets. All UFAs, including potential UFA MAF were about spinning the wheel. Different kind of risks, that had to be accepted, but with Kuemper or Campbell it would have been franchise altering mistake if they would have bombed. I would have argumented for any of them though outside of those two, since I don't see either being the guy and those contract lengths are risk. If you look Oilers situation in vacuum, they're banking last years of McDrai on Campbell's shoulders. I know we're doing that on Murray, but it's still fixable and if there is change to get goalie like Hellebyuck next summer it's doable.

Overpaying for Hellebyuck this summer might have been interesting move, depending on price. I just don't know if that was viable option. Don't think it was.

This summer was like last summer and last summer that injury ridden bombed goalie Andersen was the right lottery ticket (until playoffs came). Last time there was Vezina caliber goalie available it didn't end well for acquiring team, so I don't know.

I'm actually bit more hopeful than I was last summer, since I see potential in our tandem, but it's a risk and we'll see what happens. Hope for the best and hopefully Dubas plans for the worst.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So you use an argument that leafs nation always blames the goalie and its flawed logic but then you use the argument that it is Murray's fault his teams have failed in the last few playoffs as a standard against him. There is a double standard here.

Attributing wins/losses to goalies is pretty ridiculous in the first place. But noting that Murray was +1.2 GSAx through 7 games over his last 2 playoffs in Pittsburgh wouldn't fit the narrative.

 

[13pacheco31]

I don't think there was any known solution this summer, that would have made me feel any better. Whole market was full of lottery tickets. All UFAs, including potential UFA MAF were about spinning the wheel. Different kind of risks, that had to be accepted, but with Kuemper or Campbell it would have been franchise altering mistake if they would have bombed. I would have argumented for any of them though outside of those two, since I don't see either being the guy and those contract lengths are risk. If you look Oilers situation in vacuum, they're banking last years of McDrai on Campbell's shoulders. I know we're doing that on Murray, but it's still fixable and if there is change to get goalie like Hellebyuck next summer it's doable.

Overpaying for Hellebyuck this summer might have been interesting move, depending on price. I just don't know if that was viable option. Don't think it was.

This summer was like last summer and last summer that injury ridden bombed goalie Andersen was the right lottery ticket (until playoffs came). Last time there was Vezina caliber goalie available it didn't end well for acquiring team, so I don't know.

I'm actually bit more hopeful than I was last summer, since I see potential in our tandem, but it's a risk and we'll see what happens. Hope for the best and hopefully Dubas plans for the worst.

Talbot was the best option

 

[saltming]

Attributing wins/losses to goalies is pretty ridiculous in the first place. But noting that Murray was +1.2 GSAx through 7 games over his last 2 playoffs in Pittsburgh wouldn't fit the narrative.

Agreed and I don't recall any posts saying Murray will win us games so I don't know why @Mess keeps saying that

 

[DueDiligence]

Neither are accurate or realistic representations.

As most neutral people can acknowledge, Murray is a goalie who has shown an ability to be an effective starter, and who has won multiple cups. He had a stretch of down years, before rebounding back to a decent goalie last year despite playing behind horrible defensive play. He has faced some injury struggles, but that was due in part to mishandling by the Ottawa medical team. Toronto has a world class medical team, Murray has familiarity with the coaching and management he will work with here, and they have reportedly identified some weaknesses in his approach that can be fixed.

In a field of similarly risky goalies, Murray at under 4.7m for 2 years + 2 free draft picks at no cost to the team is a reasonable acquisition, and every Leaf fan should be cheering him on to be successful.

As mentioned in many different threads and posts Murray did not play that well last year. Average at best. Ottawa's other goalie. Forsberg, had significantly better stats than him playing behind that "horrible" defense. Murray can have a stretch of good to very games but then look awful in the next couple. Combine that with his injury history and Toronto is certainly taking a big gamble that it will all work out.

 

[Hitemwith4]

WOW 104 pages the Toronto Maple leafs do live in everyone's mind here on HF

 

[Dekes For Days]

As mentioned in many different threads and posts Murray did not play that well last year. Average at best. Ottawa's other goalie. Forsberg, had significantly better stats than him playing behind that "horrible" defense.

Murray had a GSAx of +3.2 through 20 games last year, which is not bad at all (better than every single one of our goalies last year). Forsberg did slightly better at +0.198 GSAx/60 compared to Murray's +0.163, and both did much better than Gustavsson or Sogaard, but not sure why you think that's relevant. Murray dealt with the worst defensive play in front of him on the team, for the record, with an xGAA of 3.21.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I was so against this Murray deal when it happened, but I think you have to take the whole thread in its entirety as the Leafs internal monologue and debate as the trade was negotiated and completed, from an unlikely option to a calculated roll of the dice.

Conclusion: one big collar tug of a situation for Dubas and company.

 

[Mess]

I was so against this Murray deal when it happened, but I think you have to take the whole thread in its entirety as the Leafs internal monologue and debate as the trade was negotiated and completed, from an unlikely option to a calculated roll of the dice.

Your original position put you in the vast majority as it should have, being a logical and reasonable thinking person. I like Murray as a person and player, I even wanted him on my Leafs years ago, but I'm no longer seeing this as a calculated risk and roll of the dice for a fan based so hungry for playoff success as the longest losing record looking for an upgrade in net.

Perhaps best defined as putting "lipstick on a pig" meaning making superficial or cosmetic changes to a product in a futile effort to disguise its fundamental failings, best describes my current stance on this transaction and whole offseason as a whole.

Murray hasn't been better than Campbell the past 2 years, and he certainly hasn't been better than Freddy Andersen either for that matter, if you use wins and stats and actual performance in direct comparisons over the same time periods. I was never a fan of those past goalies believing they were the answer either, but I reconginize their being scapegoated into the #1 cause of Leafs past failure.

Long time ago now, in a land far away, on a team lead by Conn Smythe winners Sidney Crosby and Geno Malkin, this goalie once hoisted a Cup 5 & 6 years ago, so if he did it before then he can do it again, IF you only believe. ... This seems to be the glimmer of hope Leaf Nation is hitching their wagons to today, attempting to convince themselves it will all work out, when just a month ago the only bandwagon everyone was jumping on was how bad an idea this really was, and how poor a trade the team just made.

Nothing has changed with Murray since the time he was acquired and this thread started, he was still an unwanted salary cap contract dump (just like Mrazek was for the Leafs), and he is still trying to come off a serious concussion that has kept him off skates for the past 4 months. The only thing that has changed is Leaf Nation perception, as realistically their level of concern should be through the roof, but then what other choice do they have other than accept the situation for what it is, and then hope for the best.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Ultimately, I think the difference between this move and simply re-signing Campbell or going with a UFA is Dubas wants the flexibility after 2 seasons even though it means more risk right now. To me, that demonstrates that he feels like he has a ton of job security

 

[Racer88]

I don't think there was any known solution this summer, that would have made me feel any better. Whole market was full of lottery tickets. All UFAs, including potential UFA MAF were about spinning the wheel. Different kind of risks, that had to be accepted, but with Kuemper or Campbell it would have been franchise altering mistake if they would have bombed. I would have argumented for any of them though outside of those two, since I don't see either being the guy and those contract lengths are risk. If you look Oilers situation in vacuum, they're banking last years of McDrai on Campbell's shoulders. I know we're doing that on Murray, but it's still fixable and if there is change to get goalie like Hellebyuck next summer it's doable.

Overpaying for Hellebyuck this summer might have been interesting move, depending on price. I just don't know if that was viable option. Don't think it was.

This summer was like last summer and last summer that injury ridden bombed goalie Andersen was the right lottery ticket (until playoffs came). Last time there was Vezina caliber goalie available it didn't end well for acquiring team, so I don't know.

I'm actually bit more hopeful than I was last summer, since I see potential in our tandem, but it's a risk and we'll see what happens. Hope for the best and hopefully Dubas plans for the worst.

Going to be an interesting season that’s for sure

Ultimately, I think the difference between this move and simply re-signing Campbell or going with a UFA is Dubas wants the flexibility after 2 seasons even though it means more risk right now. To me, that demonstrates that he feels like he has a ton of job security

That in its self is disheartening

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Attributing wins/losses to goalies is pretty ridiculous in the first place. But noting that Murray was +1.2 GSAx through 7 games over his last 2 playoffs in Pittsburgh wouldn't fit the narrative.

It would fit your narrative though.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It would fit your narrative though.

I don't have a narrative, and I don't even think it's all that meaningful, but it's certainly more relevant than attributing wins and losses to goalies to misrepresent their actual level of play.

 

[socko]

Going with Matt Murray who hasn't been good for years with about the same dollar value as Campbell is:

A) Smartest guy in the room
B) Not very good at job
C) Negotiated great severance package
D) All of the above

Somehow if he doesn't play well, I predict we will see some advanced stats that prove otherwise.

A largely believed to be washed-up Muhammad Ali defeated a prime George Foreman in the Rumble in the Jungle in a shocker. He used the rope a dope strategy. Maybe that can happen here. Or maybe the only dope that Matt Murray is going to rope wears fake glasses.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Going with Matt Murray who hasn't been good for years with about the same dollar value as Campbell is:

A) Smartest guy in the room
B) Not very good at job
C) Negotiated great severance package
D) All of the above

Somehow if he doesn't play well, I predict we will see some advanced stats that prove otherwise.

A largely believed to be washed-up Muhammad Ali defeated a prime George Foreman in the Rumble in the Jungle in a shocker. He used the rope a dope strategy. Maybe that can happen here. Or maybe the only dope that Matt Murray is going to rope wears fake glasses.

I don't think Matt Murray was brought in for the regular season. I hope he was brought in for games 6 and 7.

That's what we will judge this trade on.

 

[Jmo89]

I was so against this Murray deal when it happened, but I think you have to take the whole thread in its entirety as the Leafs internal monologue and debate as the trade was negotiated and completed, from an unlikely option to a calculated roll of the dice.

I'm in a similar spot. The trade was trash and there's really no way to defend it. The assets Toronto got back (including retention) were poor and underwhelming.

I don't know if this is necessarily a vote of confidence for Murray, but when you look at how bad Campbell was in both the OTs game 6 against Montreal and the game 6 against Tampa, I ask myself if Murray can at least make the saves he's supposed to in those situations.

Maybe Murray doesn't, and he's worse, but after seeing Campbell's OT performances in the playoffs I had no interest in him coming back.

This team from management to players has alot to like and alot to dislike, but they won in spit eof goaltending last season. I just want to see a goalie make the saves he's supposed to before the game 7's that our Leafs can't seem to win. (Obviously I'd like it in game 7 too.)

 

[socko]

I don't think Matt Murray was brought in for the regular season. I hope he was brought in for games 6 and 7.

That's what we will judge this trade on.

I don't think it had anything to do with that. I think he wants to load up on funds to resign his core and he's willing to go cheap on goalie to do it. I'm not sure he'll still be employed then.

 

[deprw]

Talbot was the best option

Oilers ditched him, Wild didn't trust him and Ottawa bought him into tandem. I don't know, maybe he was. Will see, there is lots of teams to compare.

Going to be an interesting season that’s for sure

Will be. At the same time I don't care about regular season anymore, but it will tell lot about this team and our goalies.

Actually you could say that half the teams in the Atlantic have something to be terrified or to be excited of. Tampa has their goalie set, Bobrovsky should hold on his own, Talbot is probably at least ok, but from Canadiens to Buffalo there isn't sure thing on the net. Price can be anything, our tandem at best is interesting, Boston has their goalie troubles, Detroit is mystery box and Buffalo is Buffalo. Goaltending can be anything from Vezina caliber to total disaster.

 

[Mess]

I don't think Matt Murray was brought in for the regular season. I hope he was brought in for games 6 and 7.

That's what we will judge this trade on.

Murray also has a long injury history to factor in as well, including serious concussions.

Will he even be available come playoff time?

He wouldn't have been last year had Leafs wanted to acquire him at TD.