Proposal: Tor - Clb

[TDK67]

Jenner tied Nashs rookie goal scoring record. Had a nasty back injury last season and rebounded with a 30G season. He's done nothing but trend up.

If I remember right he had a fracture in his back, but honestly I don't remember.

That sounds impressive but the context that's missing is that Nash was 18 years old while Jenner was 20 years old. Also, that record is 17 goals.

Not downplaying Jenner, just saying it's not the biggest selling point here.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I'm not trying to derail the thread but drafting players isn't only about the on ice product(yes it's probably 80%+) but you have to take character and how they act and preform off ice and in the community into consideration. Which is a area PLD blows just about everyone away in.

Have you heard anything negative about Puljujarvi's character...or Juolevi's, Sergachev's? Laine is the only top 10 guy in this draft that I have heard anything about in that regard, and honestly I think talent over-rides...which looks to be supported by the Laine #2 pick

Not trying to derail it either, this is all in response to the idea that Werenski is more valuable than Nylander because #1D > #1C (as their respective ceilings), which I disagree with

Not trying to take any wind out of Werenski's sails either, he's a great prospect that I'd love to have on the leafs, but Nylander has very comparable value

 

[Breakers]

Being impartial this is pretty even

I'd say Toronto comes a bit ahead because of Jenner's age.

 

[CBJx614]

Hindsight is 20/20 in terms of who anyone would take

I think the point is: when NHL GM's see prospects who are all considered to be on the same tier, they tend to side with the Centre first, should speak to how they value positions.

If you want to argue that a #1D and a #1C are similar values (and at the top of the food totem pole) I would buy that, but not that #1D >> #1C as the evidence is to the contrary

Given that defensemen also take longer to develop, wouldn't you rather have more years of that guy making an impact on your NHL team?

It depends on how big you think the impact that player is going to make, if you think it's worth it than yes.

He had the first off-the-board pick in a "Big 3" draft in doing so...was definitely in the minority thinking that Dubois was the BPA if so.

Methinks that he placed a little value (rightly so) on the position. Or maybe he's just actually allergic to Finns?

from talking to some Finns on the board it's possible, it seems the culture is quite different and it could be seen as favoritism. Although from the reports it seems Jarmo was extremely high on Laine.

That sounds impressive but the context that's missing is that Nash was 18 years old while Jenner was 20 years old. Also, that record is 17 goals.

Not downplaying Jenner, just saying it's not the biggest selling point here.

no it wasn't the biggest selling point, the selling point was that he is still trending upwards. Until he has an actual down year we don't know what his ceiling is. If he turns into a perennial 30G guy it's Jenner easily. Jenner is the kinda guy who players see in their sleep before games because he's going to be in your face alllllllll game long. He's going to finish every check and get into your head.


I cant say anything about JVR because I only watch Toronto when they play the Jackets so i wont say anything about him.

 

[Breakers]

No... He didn't. He opted for who he thought was BPA. It's pretty simple.

I'm not trying to derail the thread but drafting players isn't only about the on ice product(yes it's probably 80%+) but you have to take character and how they act and preform off ice and in the community into consideration. Which is a area PLD blows just about everyone away in.

ABSOLUTELY zero evidence to support this claim.

The only guy that could maybe apply to is Tyson Jost. Which countless GM's said he dominated interviews because of his character.

 

[CBJx614]

Have you heard anything negative about Puljujarvi's character...or Juolevi's, Sergachev's? Laine is the only top 10 guy in this draft that I have heard anything about in that regard, and honestly I think talent over-rides...which looks to be supported by the Laine #2 pick

Not trying to derail it either, this is all in response to the idea that Werenski is more valuable than Nylander because #1D > #1C (as their respective ceilings), which I disagree with

Not trying to take any wind out of Werenski's sails either, he's a great prospect that I'd love to have on the leafs, but Nylander has very comparable value

By all means Puljujarvi seems like a stand up guy. But Jarmo is the only GM in the league who was able to have a real face to face interview with the kid and really pick his brain.

 

[Randy Randerson]

It depends on how big you think the impact that player is going to make, if you think it's worth it than yes.
from talking to some Finns on the board it's possible, it seems the culture is quite different and it could be seen as favoritism. Although from the reports it seems Jarmo was extremely high on Laine.

no it wasn't the biggest selling point, the selling point was that he is still trending upwards. Until he has an actual down year we don't know what his ceiling is. If he turns into a perennial 30G guy it's Jenner easily. Jenner is the kinda guy who players see in their sleep before games because he's going to be in your face alllllllll game long. He's going to finish every check and get into your head.


I cant say anything about JVR because I only watch Toronto when they play the Jackets so i wont say anything about him.

I don't like the idea of buying high on a guy like Jenner, I don't see him getting better from 30g and 50ish points, in-your-facedness aside. JVR is a perennial 25-30g guy and I'd prefer to keep him, adds alot more in the playmaking department than Jenner. Jenner is younger and controllable, and seems to be a great second round find for CBJ

By all means Puljujarvi seems like a stand up guy. But Jarmo is the only GM in the league who was able to have a real face to face interview with the kid and really pick his brain.

This is awfully speculative, wouldn't make these kinds of presumptions or you're going to get criticized by the jackals

 

[CBJx614]

I don't like the idea of buying high on a guy like Jenner, I don't see him getting better from 30g and 50ish points, in-your-facedness aside. JVR is a perennial 25-30g guy and I'd prefer to keep him, adds alot more in the playmaking department than Jenner. Jenner is younger and controllable, and seems to be a great second round find for CBJ

that's fair enough

This is awfully speculative, wouldn't make these kinds of presumptions or you're going to get criticized by the jackals

Talking to a kid through translators and talking to a kid one on one are two different things. Especially when it comes down to character and with such major cultural differences.


But that's enough draft talk in a thread that had nothing to do with anyone from the 2016 draft

 

[Randy Randerson]

that's fair enough



Talking to a kid through translators and talking to a kid one on one are two different things. Especially when it comes down to character and with such major cultural differences.


But that's enough draft talk in a thread that had nothing to do with anyone from the 2016 draft

I guess, but speculating from the outside that they passed because they exposed some hidden character flaws because Jarmo speaks finnish is a stretch I think. The obvious difference, and the one that both sports radio stations that I was flipping back and forth to during the draft cited, was that Dubois could play centre. Flexibility to play multiple positions is definitely of value, but I think its hard not to acknowledge that Centre is a premium position as well


agreed on that we've gotten off topic



For fun, and since you haven't seen much of JVR, have a watch of the link below. He seems to get consistently undervalued in trade proposals, probably because he didn't hit his projections as a #2OA pick, but he is alot of fun to watch - diametrically opposed to Jenner, pure talent and no grit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf20a4c1bdw

 

[FerrisRox]

he called jenner a strong two way player whereas advanced stats show him as a terrible possesion player.

Just to clarify... Are you saying the a "terrible" possession player is therefore not a good defensive forward?

Care to explain how you have arrived at this conclusion?

 

[Crede777]

I guess, but speculating from the outside that they passed because they exposed some hidden character flaws because Jarmo speaks finnish is a stretch I think. The obvious difference, and the one that both sports radio stations that I was flipping back and forth to during the draft cited, was that Dubois could play centre. Flexibility to play multiple positions is definitely of value, but I think its hard not to acknowledge that Centre is a premium position as well


agreed on that we've gotten off topic



For fun, and since you haven't seen much of JVR, have a watch of the link below. He seems to get consistently undervalued in trade proposals, probably because he didn't hit his projections as a #2OA pick, but he is alot of fun to watch - diametrically opposed to Jenner, pure talent and no grit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf20a4c1bdw

The fact that Dubois plays centered is easily dismissed when Jarmo point blank said both before and after the draft that position has nothing to do with it. He picked who he thinks will be the better overall player between the two.

 

[major major]

Just to clarify... Are you saying the a "terrible" possession player is therefore not a good defensive forward?

Care to explain how you have arrived at this conclusion?

In Jenner's case he was oversold as a two way player. He certainly wasn't good defensively last year. The other team scored more when he was on the ice. Both Dubinsky and Atkinson saw their goals against spike when they played with Jenner.

 

[major major]

The fact that Dubois plays centered is easily dismissed when Jarmo point blank said both before and after the draft that position has nothing to do with it. He picked who he thinks will be the better overall player between the two.

I think team need was not part of Jarmo's calculation.

But being able to play center is part of BPA, and probably factored in. You might see that in how they valued Dubois' versatility.

 

[CanuckBeSerious]

Werenski projects to be a solid defenseman, but he hasn't proven anything yet. Nylander was the best player in the AHL last year, and looked extremely capable for the Leafs when he was called up

Leafs have been looking for a centreman with top line abilities for YEARS. I realize they now have two, but it just makes no sense to trade one of them for a defenseman who, at this point, is purely a gamble

Boone Jenner does nothing for me. He put up surprisingly strong numbers for a really bad team. Seems like an anomaly

Too much risk in this deal. Werenski and Jenner could end up being star players, but they could also be nothing. Can't see the Leafs unloading proven talent on that

JVR scores 30 goals on a bad team : "Imagine what he could do on a good team!"

Jenner scores 30 goals on a bad team :"Meh, seems like an anomaly."

 

[Randy Randerson]

JVR scores 30 goals on a bad team : "Imagine what he could do on a good team!"

Jenner scores 30 goals on a bad team :"Meh, seems like an anomaly."

Jenner's only done it once, and at this point I think he's getting valued in a trade like a 30 goals scorer so if he repeats that performance I don't think his trade value (or at least his HF board trade value) goes up much. If he regresses I think his value could fall a lot - and the only thing he really brings to the table offensively is scoring in the paint. JVR can set up goals as well, given the talent the leafs have coming I think he has a lot more synergy value

Jenner is also not as good defensively as billed:
credit: http://ownthepuck.blogspot.ca/

 

[Monk]

Are people just forgetting that one of these players is 27 and the other is 23 or ignoring it on purpose?

Regardless, this thread really should just be shut down at this point.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Are people just forgetting that one of these players is 27 and the other is 23 or ignoring it on purpose?

Regardless, this thread really should just be shut down at this point.

I think it was acknowledged many posts ago that Jenner's age+contract+controllability are more desirable than JVR's, but many of us have concerns that Jenner's results from last season are misleading. If he's really a 15goal/15assist 3rd liner, then his value isn't JVR despite the age and contract differences, so any trade around Jenner at his current career high water mark would make us nervous on the acquiring side

 

[Monk]

I think it was acknowledged many posts ago that Jenner's age+contract+controllability are more desirable than JVR's, but many of us have concerns that Jenner's results from last season are misleading. If he's really a 15goal/15assist 3rd liner, then his value isn't JVR despite the age and contract differences, so any trade around Jenner at his current career high water mark would make us nervous on the acquiring side

Reaffirming my suspicion that we've run our course here.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think it was acknowledged many posts ago that Jenner's age+contract+controllability are more desirable than JVR's, but many of us have concerns that Jenner's results from last season are misleading. If he's really a 15goal/15assist 3rd liner, then his value isn't JVR despite the age and contract differences, so any trade around Jenner at his current career high water mark would make us nervous on the acquiring side

That's fine but since there's not a poster in this thread who wants to do the trade from either team's perspective...

 

[major major]

In my opinion, based on his projections as a player (2nd round pick), and the fact that he was thrust into an overly offensive-minded role for a crappy team, he won't repeat this success

He might not, but your reasoning is off.

If you're still relying on six year old draft projections then maybe you should step aside and let other people do the assessments.

And Columbus doesn't have a shortage of guys who can play top six wing. I know it might seem that way because the team is bad, but it's not true. Jenner has lots of competition.