Proposal: Tor - Clb

[Menzinger]

leafs fans saying no

It's perfectly reasonable - clear thread consensus is the Nylander v Werenski is equal value.

Comes down to how one values the other pieces involved which is entirely subjective.

Personally I rank Nylander as the best Leafs prospect after Matthews, so I'd really not want to move him, even for a "fair" value.

 

[hamzarocks]

I'd say werenski for nylander is fair value but I'd rather not do it as he's not an rhd. Jvr is better and more valuable than Jenner imo for now. He's been a great player since coming to torinto and has been good for 55-60 pts. Jenner is a nice player but he's still only showed this level of play for one season ( a season that jvr was playing amazingly and would have had a 60 pt season on a team that sucked offensively had he not been injured). I wouldn't do this deal and would hold onto jvr. He's a good player to play with Matthews and help give him support. As for nylander, while the value is about even, I'd rather not trade one of our four core guys.

 

[SelltheTeamFrancesco]

Nylander and Werenski are a wash.

are u saying Jenner is more valuable than JVR?

Lol Werenski and nylander are not a wash.

 

[Viqsi]

Lol Werenski and nylander are not a wash.

You shouldn't sell Nylander short like that.

 

[TML1967]

You shouldn't sell Nylander short like that.

I agree, but id give the edge to Wir on this one.

Leafs fan here who thinks the deal is a good one for the leafs to add more to.

Nylander
JVR
+ Andrew Nielsen (Draft +1 = WHL, 71 gmaes, 18+52=70) 6'3 LHD, skates well.
WHL 1st team all-star beside Provorov

Thoughts?

 

[Viqsi]

I agree, but id give the edge to Wir on this one.

Leafs fan here who thinks the deal is a good one for the leafs to add more to.

Nylander
JVR
+ Andrew Nielsen (Draft +1 = WHL, 71 gmaes, 18+52=70) 6'3 LHD, skates well.
WHL 1st team all-star beside Provorov

Thoughts?

Almost certainly wouldn't go for it. Werenski's important for a core strategy of having a killer blueline, and if we can't have him, we need a replacement core strategy. Unless Nielsen looks like he could be a #1D elsewhere, it's not really a good idea for us. (And under those circumstances, Toronto would likely be better off just keeping him. )

 

[DrTucker]

I agree, but id give the edge to Wir on this one.

Leafs fan here who thinks the deal is a good one for the leafs to add more to.

Nylander
JVR
+ Andrew Nielsen (Draft +1 = WHL, 71 gmaes, 18+52=70) 6'3 LHD, skates well.
WHL 1st team all-star beside Provorov

Thoughts?

Absolutley not. Terrible for Leafs. I could handle Nylander and Nielsen, but adding JVR makes it a massive over payment for a very good, but similar to Nylander in value Wirenski

 

[Randy Randerson]

JVR seems to be consistently valued lower than similar players but keeps producing like a first line player. I would hold onto him to see if Matthews inflates his numbers then sell on a higher note if you want return for him, or just re-sign

JVR still has a slightly higher career goals/game and a better points per game than Jenner, including last season (JVR's numbers are WAY better if you exclude last season). Watch some highlights of the two and you'll notice very different games stylistically - JVR went 2nd overall because he's incredibly talented and his highlights will show that, Jenner is a mule and scores ugly ALOT. He had a huge bump in production last year and leafs (then Columbus, ironically) have been bitten very recently by buying high on guys who breached the 30 goal mark by banging and crashing, see David Clarkson. Could Jenner repeat and turn into a perennial 30 goal scorer ? sure...could last season be the high water mark of a good 3rd line career, also yes. Personally I keep JVR because he proved he can produce without help last year, and there's a ton of help on the way that could bump his production towards top 20 in the league, then the leafs have lots of trade options that bring back real value...and if his output stays the same, he's still a great top 6 piece


Werenski vs. Nylander is very difficult to make a case for either way, any where that ranks prospects has both in the 5-12 range, trying to objectively say that one is much better than the other at this point is just homerism, they both have huge value.

 

[Viqsi]

JVR seems to be consistently valued lower than similar players but keeps producing like a first line player. I would hold onto him to see if Matthews inflates his numbers then sell on a higher note if you want return for him, or just re-sign

JVR still has a slightly higher career goals/game and a better points per game than Jenner, including last season (JVR's numbers are WAY better if you exclude last season). Watch some highlights of the two and you'll notice very different games stylistically - JVR went 2nd overall because he's incredibly talented and his highlights will show that, Jenner is a mule and scores ugly ALOT. He had a huge bump in production last year and leafs (then Columbus, ironically) have been bitten very recently by buying high on guys who breached the 30 goal mark by banging and crashing, see David Clarkson. Could Jenner repeat and turn into a perennial 30 goal scorer ? sure...could last season be the high water mark of a good 3rd line career, also yes. Personally I keep JVR because he proved he can produce without help last year, and there's a ton of help on the way that could bump his production towards top 20 in the league, then the leafs have lots of trade options that bring back real value...and if his output stays the same, he's still a great top 6 piece


Werenski vs. Nylander is very difficult to make a case for either way, any where that ranks prospects has both in the 5-12 range, trying to objectively say that one is much better than the other at this point is just homerism, they both have huge value.

Did you seriously just compare Boone Jenner and his third season in the NHL at age 22 to David Clarkson and his sixth season in the NHL at age 27?

 

[Bust]

I agree that JVR gets undervalued quite a bit around these parts. And I think nylander will be an amazing talent. But it's hard to turn down an offer like this as a leaf fan. This coming from a JVR fan.

A top flight defensive prospect, and a proven/young, "mule" goal scorer? Side note, I've always liked Boones style of play, yeah he scores dirty goals quite often but the man is intense and a unique peice to build a team around, especially one that would still boast a prospect pool of Marner, Mathews, Brown.
Mathews, Jenner, Kadri would be crazy down the middle.

Sign me up.

I understand why certain Columbus fans aren't down for this.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Did you seriously just compare Boone Jenner and his third season in the NHL at age 22 to David Clarkson and his sixth season in the NHL at age 27?

No, I did not, please read more carefully. I think Boone Jenner is an NHL'er but could be a 3rd liner and the only thing NHL level about Clarkson is his contract. In terms of play style they are similar, and I'm weary about buying high on guys who score most of their goals in the paint as we have been burned on that before. If Jenner isn't scoring goals, he doesn't bring much to the table offensively, and I'd like to see him repeat last season's output before believing he's going to be a perennial 30 goal guy. I wouldn't trade JVR for Jenner at this point because its a gamble and I'm happy with what JVR has proven to be over the ~3 seasons we've had him

 

[Randy Randerson]

I agree that JVR gets undervalued quite a bit around these parts. And I think nylander will be an amazing talent. But it's hard to turn down an offer like this as a leaf fan. This coming from a JVR fan.

A top flight defensive prospect, and a proven/young, "mule" goal scorer? Side note, I've always liked Boones style of play, yeah he scores dirty goals quite often but the man is intense and a unique peice to build a team around, especially one that would still boast a prospect pool of Marner, Mathews, Brown.
Mathews, Jenner, Kadri would be crazy down the middle.

Sign me up.

I understand why certain Columbus fans aren't down for this.

Fair enough, I don't think the value from the OP is off, I'd just like to see Jenner repeat those results before I chalk him up to being a perennial top 6 player. He doesn't distribute the puck, so if he's not scoring then his offense will be limited. If he regresses and puts up 15 goals+10 assists next year, his acquisition value would fall substantially, not sure if it would rise much if he repeated as he seems to be getting that sort of credit as it stands now. With JVR you know what you've got, and he should be a good top line/top 6 winger for 3-4 more years, certainly through the end of this contract. He has proven to be a pretty balanced scorer/distributer so should be able to get the puck to those other talented pieces around him going forward, spreads the risk of regression around a bit if he can do more than one thing offensively. Looked at Jenner's HERO charts, was expecting better possession and suppression stats from him - I would concede that he is likely better for your team defensively than JVR, but again something I wouldn't buy high on


Werenski looks like a stud in the making...but then again so does Nylander and looking more and more like he'll stick at centre (as far as we can evaluate thus far)

 

[TaketheCannoli]

While leafs and jackets fans could reasonably debate the relative value of this proposal, it doesn't take Columbus's strategy and needs into account. Werenski looks like a surefire high end defender and since it takes longer to develop blue liners the jackets are building from the back out. This deal would be a setback in their build. Therefore no thanks.

 

[schenneuf]

Jenner had 30 goals this past season. JvR had 14 in 40 games - if you extrapolate that to a full season (always dubious, but perhaps justifiable in this case given his usual goal scoring totals), he's still short.

To be fair, Jenner hasn't done it consistently and JvR has. But that's different than "it doesn't happen".

Just wondering, how would you compare the linemates Jenner played with, to those JVR played with?
I'm not even sure who JVR's line mates were. I'm assuming it was Bozak and maybe Komorov.

 

[Trapper]

Just wondering, how would you compare the line mates Jenner played with, to those JVR played with?
I'm not even sure who JVR's line mates were. I'm assuming it was Bozak and maybe Komorov.

Most of the time it was:
JVR-Bozak-Parenteau
Then JVR got hurt for the season.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Just wondering, how would you compare the linemates Jenner played with, to those JVR played with?
I'm not even sure who JVR's line mates were. I'm assuming it was Bozak and maybe Komorov.

All of a sudden we're going to hear about how stacked the Columbus forward lines are?

 

[TSA0402]

I don't see any Columbus fans making this proposal. Value aside, I think Columbus pieces end up better in the near future.

 

[FerrisRox]

Nylander and Werenski are a wash.

are u saying Jenner is more valuable than JVR?

Jenner is definitely more valuable. He's tougher, grittier, by all reports he has good leadership qualities and he's got a two-way game, something that JVR certainly does not.

 

[Monk]

All of a sudden we're going to hear about how stacked the Columbus forward lines are?

That would certainly help explain why the CBJ would trade away their top defense prospect for a top forward prospect.

 

[cslebn]

That would certainly help explain why the CBJ would trade away their top defense prospect for a top forward prospect.

Jenner's top linemates were Dubi and Atkinson. They typically faced the other teams top line and D judging by the list of opponents.

I have yet to see a CBJ fan say they want this trade though. A lot of that has to do with understanding that while we lack top flight star talent on offense the D is much worse off and is just starting to correct.

For reference I used Behindthenet.ca for linemates seen above. I also saw JVR played more with Kadri and Komarov per their site.

 

[FerrisRox]

Lol no he doesn't score more goals... and no he isn't worth more than jvr "big time". If you wanna argue that he's younger and cost controlled longer, fine, but better? I dunno, we'll see in a few years whether that's true or not

Jenner offers significantly more than JVR. Jenner is a multi-faceted player that can contribute to his teams success even when he is held off the score sheet. The same cannot - with a straight face - be said about JVR. Van Riemsdyk, while very offensively skilled, is completely one dimensional and even since the arrival of Mike Babcock - where he has improved - he is still a very poor player without the puck.

 

[Monk]

Jenner's top linemates were Dubi and Atkinson. They typically faced the other teams top line and D judging by the list of opponents.

I have yet to see a CBJ fan say they want this trade though. A lot of that has to do with understanding that while we lack top flight star talent on offense the D is much worse off and is just starting to correct.

For reference I used Behindthenet.ca for linemates seen above. I also saw JVR played more with Kadri and Komarov per their site.

I was being sarcastic. Trade is fair-ish in a vacuum, makes no sense for CBJ in the real world.

 

[FerrisRox]

Jenner doesn't pass, nor play make

#CyYoung

Van Riemsdyk doesn't back check.

Or play defense.

Or play physical.

Or cover his man.

Or skate hard when his team doesn't have the puck.

#OneWayPlayer

 

[major major]

I happen to think JVR is pretty limited but so is Jenner. He doesn't have the vision or playmaking ability to be a #1C. Jenner's value should be much higher but just because of contract and RFA status.

If Jarmo thought Nylander was a sure-bet to be a #1C then this deal wouldn't be so lopsided. But we've seen elsewhere, not in this thread, that even many Leafs fans aren't so sold on him as a #1C.

Jarmo thinks Werenski is going to be an all-around #1D and I think he's right.

 

[number72]

Toronto needs to add a good piece like Reilly or marner or 1st