Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 1

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I realize it's a small sample size, but this section of the 2010 Frank Nighbor bio is pretty eye-opening:

Nighbor's extended absence in '18 gives us an idea of his importance to his team.

Discounting the Montreal Wanderers, who folded early in the season (only played 6 games), The '18 Ottawa Senators had the worst GA and the worst GF in the NHL, and missed the playoffs.

Ottawa without Nighbor in '18
3-9 record
59 GF, 73 GA

Ottawa with Nighbor in '18
5-5 record
43 GF, 40 GA

Lalonde's goals vs Ottawa with Nighbor: 1 game, 1g
Lalonde's goals vs Ottawa without Nighbor: 5 games, 8g

Malone's goals vs Ottawa with Nighbor: 3 games, 1g
Malone's goals vs Ottawa without Nighbor: 7 games, 23g

Malone's '18 season has become legendary. He scored 44g in 22 games, the highest goals per game pace in NHL history. But even more amazing is that he scored over half of those goals in 7 games against Ottawa when Nighbor was out of the lineup.


Joe Malone again dominated Ottawa when Nighbor could not play:

Ottawa Citizen: 3-11-1920 said:
Winning Streak of Champion Senators Stopped at Nine Straight as Lowly "Bulldogs" Defeated Them 10-4 over Slushy Sheet of Ice. Ottawas Were Without Frank Nighbor and Joe Malone Ran Wild. Scoring Six Goals.

Joe Malone ran wild in the absence of Nighbor and scored 6 goals for Quebec, beating out "Newsy" Lalonde for the league honors.

Malone was giving the Ottawa defense a busy night as Frank Nighbor with his pokecheck was not there to stop up the Quebec captain.

I realize these "with or without" comparisons have issues, but in an era when the starters tended to play the full 60 minutes, they are much more valid than they would be in modern times.
 
To start my defense/boosting of Bowie, I'd like to start with a simple opinion that I think I have mentioned before- we can't hold amateur-era players to the same longevity standards as professional players, for the simple reason that this was not put food on the table for their families. They played for the love of the game, the camaraderie, whatever, but if it came down to work or hockey, these guys had to choose work. There are several players of the era who stopped playing regularly but suited up occasionally and still dominated- the Davidson brothers and McDougall of the 1890s Victorias, Alf. Smith was suspended for several years and came back strong for the Silver Seven (Westwick too, actually, and Pulford took time off as well), etc. For the high-level players, it does not appear to have been a decline that ended their careers but rather life circumstances- not even something like a hockey-related injury. I simply don't think it is right to punish them for having not just different priorities, but the need to provide/get a real job. Heck, some guys moved to places without high level hockey due to work. At least one player allegedly quit because his fiance or wife told him to.

A four year prime wasn't a short prime for the era. A seven year prime was actually pretty darn long, and anything over that and we are talking about an extremely small percentage of players. Accordingly, Bowie looks exceptional in this respect as well.
 
Here are links to D.A.L. MacDonald’s historical profiles of Nighbor, Taylor, and Lalonde from the Montreal Gazette in 1934. He doesn’t rank them but I would say his praise for Lalonde is least effusive. Taylor is “the Morenz of his day” and Nighbor is a once in a decade player.

Frank Nighbor
Cyclone Taylor
Newsy Lalonde

Here’s Frank Selke on the greatest players of all time in 1962. No rankings, but he has high praise for Nighbor again. “It is hard to say whether Morenz’ style of play was more effective than Nighbor’s…”



Neither are Ottawa sources. Both are Eastern so may not have seen Taylor at his best.
 
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I might be in the minority in saying this, but I don't think the top goalie spot is clearcut. I believe Benedict was better than Vezina, and I think its worth spending some time to discuss.

Here's a story I did on Benedict for The Hockey News a few years back:

To quote myself:

"There’s long been a debate on who was the better netminder of the early NHL: Benedict or Georges Vezina. Comparing the two is difficult, since they were polar opposites as goaltenders. Vezina didn’t like to go down to block shots. Instead he stopped pucks with his pads in the stand-up position or slapped them aside with his stick. Benedict was a flopper, doing everything in his power to stop the puck."

"Hall of Famer Punch Broadbent once noted, “Georges Vezina of the Canadiens was a great goalie back then. He’s honored with a trophy practically legend in hockey. But we all thought there was no goalie ever better than Clint Benedict. Clint went on for many years with a distinctive style that included going to the ice for pucks, which has become so much a part of a goalie’s play through the years.”

"Prior to a game between Vezina’s Canadiens and Benedict’s Montreal Maroons, Vezina told Leo Dandurand, the Canadiens owner who donated the trophy in Vezina’s name, “It will be a close battle. I can hold them out at my end, Leo, but it will be tough to score against them. The best man is in the other goal, you know.”

"Dandurand also once claimed to a reporter that he was always very much tempted to trade for Benedict to play goal for the Canadiens instead of Vezina. It goes along with the legend that if Vezina hadn’t tragically died from tuberculosis in 1926, the Vezina Trophy might instead be called the Benedict Trophy."


It should be noted and taken into account that Benedict had some drinking problems and other stuff during his career that had him fall out of favour with some of the high-ranking NHL officials. Even after his career, he wasn't inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame until he was a very old man.

The legend and death of Georges Vezina is a more aesthetically pleasing tale than the one of Benedict's career, and so it's always been Vezina to get the attention and praise from the media. So sadly, Benedict's stellar career gets forgotten about.
 
We have 5 senators up for voting already either they are going to be overrated because they all bask in the glow of Nighbor being this transformative talent or we need to consider how much of Nighbor's legacy is built upon team accomplishments and he had the most stacked teams of the era.

Isn't this argument contingent on believing the Senators didn't win as much as they should've? Otherwise, if they won to the degree that a team of their caliber should've, how can it be a knock against any of them, particularly their clear best player?

And I'm with TDMM - I'm all for re-examining the supporting cast's cases, particularly Denneny.
 
Isn't this argument contingent on believing the Senators didn't win as much as they should've? Otherwise, if they won to the degree that a team of their caliber should've, how can it be a knock against any of them, particularly their clear best player?

Well Nighbor's case as the best play pre-consolidation is surely not hinging upon his individual exploits.

It's buoyed largely by team accomplishments, and he was on the team with the most talent of the era, so I don't necessarily see how it requires me to think the Senators under achieved to think the impact of team support on Nighbor's record is important especially when comparing with Taylor and Lalonde who didn't win the cup nearly as much.
 
I might be in the minority in saying this, but I don't think the top goalie spot is clearcut. I believe Benedict was better than Vezina, and I think its worth spending some time to discuss.

Here's a story I did on Benedict for The Hockey News a few years back:

To quote myself:

"There’s long been a debate on who was the better netminder of the early NHL: Benedict or Georges Vezina. Comparing the two is difficult, since they were polar opposites as goaltenders. Vezina didn’t like to go down to block shots. Instead he stopped pucks with his pads in the stand-up position or slapped them aside with his stick. Benedict was a flopper, doing everything in his power to stop the puck."

"Hall of Famer Punch Broadbent once noted, “Georges Vezina of the Canadiens was a great goalie back then. He’s honored with a trophy practically legend in hockey. But we all thought there was no goalie ever better than Clint Benedict. Clint went on for many years with a distinctive style that included going to the ice for pucks, which has become so much a part of a goalie’s play through the years.”

"Prior to a game between Vezina’s Canadiens and Benedict’s Montreal Maroons, Vezina told Leo Dandurand, the Canadiens owner who donated the trophy in Vezina’s name, “It will be a close battle. I can hold them out at my end, Leo, but it will be tough to score against them. The best man is in the other goal, you know.”

"Dandurand also once claimed to a reporter that he was always very much tempted to trade for Benedict to play goal for the Canadiens instead of Vezina. It goes along with the legend that if Vezina hadn’t tragically died from tuberculosis in 1926, the Vezina Trophy might instead be called the Benedict Trophy."


It should be noted and taken into account that Benedict had some drinking problems and other stuff during his career that had him fall out of favour with some of the high-ranking NHL officials. Even after his career, he wasn't inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame until he was a very old man.

The legend and death of Georges Vezina is a more aesthetically pleasing tale than the one of Benedict's career, and so it's always been Vezina to get the attention and praise from the media. So sadly, Benedict's stellar career gets forgotten about.

I don't find a quote from a player's own teammate (in this case Benedict's teammate Broadbent) to be of particular note.

Frankly, I think it's noteworthy that Benedict tied Hugh Lehman (well behind Vezina) on that 1925 MacLean's magazine all-time all-star survey of hockey insiders, most of whom were eastern based (so they would have seen a lot more of Vezina and Benedict than they would have of Lehman). That survey was taken before Vezina ever showed signs of illness.

Of course the timing of the MacLean's article couldn't have been worse for Benedict, who had just been driven out of Ottawa for allegedly showing up drunk to games, and hadn't yet had his Hart finalist year for the Montreal Maroons.

Anyway, I'm going to cut and paste from my Georges Vezina profile, because he really was considered the best goalie in the NHL (over than Benedict) well before he even got sick:



Georges Vezina

I. CONTEMPORARY OPINIONS

Attempting to create a chronology, based mostly on newspaper accounts. This post focuses on accounts from Vezina's career. I'll make another post on what people where saying about him in the decades after they retired

1910s: Vezina was considered the best goalie in the NHA/NHL and likely the world

The Calgary Daily Herald - Oct 30 1914 said:
There ???(I assume "is a") strong possibility that the National Hockey assiciation will this year be without the services of its most brilliant goalkeeper, Vezina of the Canadiens.
This paper was poorly scanned, but it was about a proposed deal that when Lalonde was playing out West, Vezina would be traded straight up for him to bring Lalonde back to Montreal.

The Montreal Daily Mail - Dec 13 1915 said:
During the intermission he hustled George Vezina, recognized as the best goal-keeper in the NHA, into one of the Guards uniforms.
This was from an a game where NHA all-stars played an army team. For the third period, the coach of the army team (Vezina's coach on the Habs.) snuck Vezina into the army teams goal. Here is the scoring per period:
1st: 4-1 NHA
2nd: 5-1 NHA
3rd: 3-1 Army

The Montreal Daily Mail - Mar 17 1916 said:
George Vezina, the brilliant goal-keeper of the Canadiens, often said to be as good as two men, jumped into prominence when he joined the Habitants in 1911. Born in Chicoutimi twenty-eight years ago, Vezina started playing goals when a youngster. Manager George Kennedy witnessed a game in which he was playing in 1910, and immediately signed him up. Ever since he has played in front of the nets for the Flying Frenchmen, and today is one of the highest payed goal-tenders in the business.

The Toronto World - Apr 5 1916 said:
Vezina, George: Goalkeeper, 28 years old, and from Chicoutimi. Joined the Canadiens in 1910 and made good on the jump. The most consistent goalkeeper in the N.H.A. and as clean a player as the game knows. His success is largely consequent upon the fact that he attends stricktly to business all the time, and never tries to pull any funny stuff.

The Morning Leader - Feb 26 1919 said:
...the goaltenders, who have demonstrated that they can stop the hard shots a la George Vezina and Hugh Lehman.
From a Regina paper, infers that Lehman is the class of the West and Vezina of the East.

The Morning Leader - Mar 8 1919 said:
Georges Vezina, goalkeeper of the Montreal Canadiens, who is conceded to be the best net guardian in the game.

early 1920s: Opinion seems to be split between Benedict and Vezina:

The Border Cities Star - Nov 25 1921 said:
Another development at Ottawa was the signing of Clint Benedict to occupy the nets for the Ottawa team during the forthcoming season Clint is generally regarded as the second best to George Vezina of the Flying Frenchmen.

The Senators and Benedict continued their roll into the 1920-1921 season. For the second consecutive year, Benedict was lauded as the best netminder in the NHL, even though Ottawa had dropped to second in the standings.

He certainly impressed a young rookie who joined the Senators before the 1921-1922 season – Francis “King” Clancy.
“He was superb. A lot of people say that Georges Vezina was the greatest goaltender in those early days of hockey, but if you look at the records you’ll see that Clint Benedict…had a better average.”

-Great Goaltenders: Stars of Hockey’s Golden Age by Jim Barber (note that Clancy appears to be referred to GAA).

Months before Vezina became ill, a panel of hockey experts voted him the best goaltender of all-time:

In 1925, MacLean's magazine asked Charlie H. Good, the Sporting Editor for the Toronto Daily News until that paper folded in 1919, to compile All-Time All-Star teams for their March 15, 1925 edition of the magazine. Good called upon his friends in the hockey world to help him with the list. The list of participants reads like a who's-who of the early hockey world:

Charles H. Good, W. A. Hewitt, Lester Patrick, J.F. Ahern, Tommy Gorman, W. J. Morrison, Lou Marsh, Bruce Boreham, K.G. H. McConnell, Roy Halpin, Ross Mackay, Harry Scott, O. F. Young, Art Ross, Frank Shaughnessey, James T. Sutherland, Bill Tackabery, Basil O'Meara, Ed. Baker, "Dusty" Rhodes, Walter McMullin, E. W.Ferguson, Joe Kincaid, and W. A. Boys, M.P.

The selected Vezina 1st Team All-Time-All-Star goalie. Percy LeSueur (of the previous generation) was 2nd team. Vezina's contemporaries Clint Benedict and Hugh Lehman were tied for 3rd Team

The March 17, 1925 Morning Leader report on MacLean's 1st Team makes one suspect that extra credit was given to deceased players. Noteably, Vezina, Cleghorn, and Nighbor were the only still-living players on the 1st Team:
Number One Team- Goal, Georges Vezina; defence, Sprague Cleghorn and Hod Stuart (deceased); center, Frank Nighbor; right wing, Allan, Scotty Davidson; left wing, Tommy Phillips (deceased)"

This timing is important because Vezina would not start to show signs of illness until the following October, was not diagnosed with tuberculosis until Nov 28, 1925, and did not die until March 26, 1926 (source = wikipedia).

So the MacLean's All-Time All-Star list is entirely untainted by Vezina's early death.

II. LEGACY

I'm focusing on opinions of people through the early 1950s - what people who saw them play thought about them after their careers.

The belief that Vezina was the best of his era seems fairly widespread

Jack Adam said:
When you talk about goaltenders, you have to start with Georges Vezina. By an almost unanimous vote of hockey people, he was the greatest the game has ever had. I remember him fairly well.

In 1918 when I broke into the National League with Toronto, Vezina was with Les Canadians. He was near the end of his career, but was still a marvel in the nets, as I found out the first time I skated in on him.

I thought I had him beat, I thought I had a cinch goal, but he had figured exactly what I was going to do, and brushed aside the shot, as easily as you'd strike a match.

Jack Adams said:
Vezina was a big fellow... I'd say he was about five feet 11 inches tall, without his skates on and he looked even taller in uniform because he always wore a red and blue toque. He had big hands and he used an exceptionally long stick.
...
He played a stand-up game, sliding from post to post, making save that seemed impossible by outguessing the puck carriers.

That was his strong point. Like all great goalers, he studied the styles of every forward in the league. He could sense what one of them would do under a given set of circumstances and was usually prepared. He guess wrong sometimes, of course, but not often.
...
I played against Vezina for three or four years. Many times he broke my heart by turning back what looked like a certain score. He was a real master. He had perfect co-ordination and an uncanny instinct.

Jack Adams then went on to say that due to changes in the nature of the position, Vezina might not actually be any more effective than the best recent goalies (Charlie Gardiner, John Ross Roach, and Tiny Thompson were named). Marty Barry was present for the interview and this is his reaction:

Adams was now striking at one of the legends of hockey. Marty Barry, sitting on a rubber table next to the Honey Walker, was startled. Never before had he heard anyone question Vezina's superiority. He was too surprised to interrupt and Adams went on (about the changes in the game making a goalie's job harder since Vezina's time)
...
"I see what you mean," said Barry, only half convinced.

The Sunday Sun, Feb 1, 1936

I think it's clear that rightly or wrongly by 1936 - 10 years after Vezina's death - "conventional wisdom" considered him the best goalie of the era - better than Clint Benedict, Hugh Lehman, or Hap Holmes.

Later, in 1953:

Jack Adams said he thought that the only old-timer who might measure up to the to the modern goalers was the immortal Georges Vezina himself.
...
But Vezina played in the days of parallel passing and kitty-bar-the-door when a lot of shots were fired from far out. We doubt if he would be as successful today unless he changed his style. But we think that Vezina, Clint Benedict, George Haimsworth, Roy Worters, and other great goalers of the past would be about to adapt to the changing conditions. They were only as good as they had to be.

Montreal Gazette, Mar 9, 1953

There are some who would picked Benedict, however

The boys were talking about goaltending greats in the aftergame discussion at Cornell last night and Jim McCafffrey was firm in his stand that Benedict was tops.... JP is willing to settle for Frank Brimsek among the present-day puck stoppers and calls Jack Crawford the best defenseman of all...

Ottawa Cititzen, March 10, 1943

In 1948, Kenny McKenize, hockey journalist and co-founder of The Hockey News called Benedict the greatest goaltender of all-time. He recalled a save Benedict made on Duke Keats that made Keats "so mad that he couldn't speak for 2 hours after the game."

Vancouver Sun, Oct 13, 1948
 
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  • Clint Benedict
  • Cy Denneny
  • Cyclone Taylor
  • Eddie Gerard
  • Frank Nighbor
  • Georges Vezina
  • Hod Stuart
  • Joe Malone
  • Newsy Lalonde
  • Russell Bowie
  • Sprague Cleghorn
  • Tommy Phillips


Nighbor is and will stay my 1. The absolute focal point of a dynasty. He was the best defensive F of an era, and one of the greats of all time. He has peak, he has longevity, both in the regular and post seasons. I simply do not see a more complete resume among anyone over this time frame. Contemporary praise is overwhelming, over a long period of time.

Taylor, Lalonde, Cleghorn are 2-4. Great blend of peak as best at their positions as well as longevity that few others had in that time period.

Vezina probably 5 right now. Best G of an era. Not a unanimous opinion but comtemporary experts were mainly pointing towards Vezina when the question of best G came up after careers were over.

Need to flesh out the middle of the pack to the back end but I have Phillips, Stuart, and Bowie near the bottom of this group.
 
How many elite seasons did Cyclone Taylor actually have?

And how does that compare to Nighbor and Lalonde?

Going through the HOH Top 100, I see that @seventieslord brought that up as Taylor's major weakness, but I didn't see details posted.

Of course, Taylor was crazy elite in his truly elite seasons, literally doubling the next best in assists.
 
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One of the criticisms against Eddie Shore is his penchant for bad penalties. Sprague Cleghorn may be the one player that's even more undisciplined (unhinged?).

Is there any record of how his lack of discipline may have cost his team? Like specific in-game examples?
 
How many elite seasons did Cyclone Taylor actually have?

And how does that compare to Nighbor and Lalonde?

Going through the HOH Top 100, I see that @seventieslord brought that up as Taylor's major weakness, but I didn't see details posted.

Of course, Taylor was crazy elite in his truly elite seasons, literally doubling the next best in assists.

Define elite? In the PCHA he has his 5 league leading in scoring seasons and then the one season (16-17) cut short by his appendicitis.

His 4 seasons in the ECHA/NHA where he was top 2 in defense scoring and managed to make the top 10 in scoring are also elite. His reputation as an elite-super star level player came from before he went west.
 
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The Ultimate Hockey book awards Taylor the 1909, 1910, and 1911 Norris Trophies.

Quoting @ResilientBeast from the ATD Bio
Offensive Resume at Cover-Point
1907-08 ECAHA - He's first in D scoring. Moose Johnson is a LW for the wanderers. 1st among D, 17th overall
1908-09 ECHA - He's tied Smail in D scoring. 1st among D, 9th overall
1909-10 NHA - I can't see any confirmed D ahead of him. 2nd in D scoring, 24th overall. Bobby Rowe played RW for Renfrew and Lester was the rover, Pitre played CP
1910-11 NHA - I can't see anyone who was D this season ahead of him. 1st/2nd in D scoring and 9th overall. Pitre played Rover and CP this season

Among D
1, 1, 2, 1

League-Wide
9, 10, 17, 24
I think he was absolutely elite as a defenseman and the time works in his favour.
 
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One of the criticisms against Eddie Shore is his penchant for bad penalties. Sprague Cleghorn may be the one player that's even more undisciplined (unhinged?).

Is there any record of how his lack of discipline may have cost his team? Like specific in-game examples?
Cleghorn played the lion's share of his career in the era before the penalty box was a thing in eastern hockey (it was an innovation of the Patrick brothers in the PCHA). Given that fact, it's quite remarkable that Sprague still has a reputation for having hurt his team through indiscipline. He didn't even have to serve penalties most of the time.

This project needs to pay very close attention to the rules under which these players competed. My guess is that most of the voters here have at least some trouble sorting out the timeline of the penalty box and the forward pass, particularly when looking at the multi-league era.

Might want to have some consolidating post where all this information is laid out. It's all here already, scattered around this board and the ATD forum.
 
Cleghorn played the lion's share of his career in the era before the penalty box was a thing in eastern hockey (it was an innovation of the Patrick brothers in the PCHA). Given that fact, it's quite remarkable that Sprague still has a reputation for having hurt his team through indiscipline. He didn't even have to serve penalties most of the time.
Would you mind expanding on this? From my readings of the early eastern leagues, offenders were sent to the side (various terms and euphemisms were used to describe this), forcing their team to play a man short. As such, I am under the impression that penalties did hurt the team.
 
The Ultimate Hockey book awards Taylor the 1909, 1910, and 1911 Norris Trophies.

Quoting @ResilientBeast from the ATD Bio

I think he was absolutely elite as a defenseman and the time works in his favour.
I wouldn't pay much attention to that book as a source. It's more of a historical entertainment book rather than a rigorous source. Didn't they give Moose Johnson a retro Norris when he was still mostly a LW?
 
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I wouldn't pay much attention to that book as a source. It's more of a historical entertainment book rather than a rigorous source. Didn't they give Moose Johnson a retro Norris when he was still mostly a LW?

If that was the 1908 one, then yes Moose was absolutely a LW that season
 
Would you mind expanding on this? From my readings of the early eastern leagues, offenders were sent to the side (various terms and euphemisms were used to describe this), forcing their team to play a man short. As such, I am under the impression that penalties did hurt the team.
Players did have to come off when they took penalties before the Patricks' innovation came to the east, but the teams were not penalized with losing a skater for some number of minutes. So yes, Sprague going off the ice frequently would have surely hurt his teams, but not nearly as much as it would have if his teams had ended up down a man.

I can't remember the exact timing of the introduction of the "power play" (though it wouldn't be called that for many years to come) in hockey. It definitely started in the PCHA, and moved east eventually, but I'm not certain this happened before consolidation.
 
Players did have to come off when they took penalties before the Patricks' innovation came to the east, but the teams were not penalized with losing a skater for some number of minutes.
They were though; there are plenty of references to teams having to be a man short, unless I am wildly misunderstanding things (which I won’t rule out).
I can't remember the exact timing of the introduction of the "power play" (though it wouldn't be called that for many years to come) in hockey. It definitely started in the PCHA, and moved east eventually, but I'm not certain this happened before consolidation.
 
Found my own old research on the subject:


So, the "team penalty" system looks like it started in 1918-19 in the PCHA, and had moved to the NHL by the 1921-22 season, five years before consolidation.

In Cleghorn's case, his last few peak years were played under the new rules (and to his credit, he did well in Hart voting during that period), but the better part of his career was spent under the old ones.
 
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The penalty system was changed in the 1918-1919 NHA season to include shorthanded play.

In the words of Eddie Gerard on Nov 9, 1918:

"The main point is that when a player commits a deliberate foul, he goes off the ice and his team plays shorthanded for three or five minutes, according to the nature of his offence."


Summary on Wikipedia:

The penalty system was refined at the instigation of the Ottawa players:
  • For minor fouls (holding a stick or lying on the ice to block a shot), a player would sit off for three minutes, allowing a substitute.[13]
  • For major fouls (including throwing a stick to prevent a score, tripping, holding, cross-checking, boarding) players would sit off for five minutes, with no substitute for three minutes.[13] An automatic goal would be awarded in the event of the stick being thrown to prevent a score.[13]
  • For match fouls (defined as deliberately injuring or disabling a player), no substitutes were allowed for a minimum of five minutes. The player could not return for at least ten minutes, depending on the referee's ruling. The player would receive a fine of not less than $15. A second match foul in a season would lead to an automatic suspension and discipline by the league president.[13]
Technical changes were also made to the league rules.

  • Two lines were added to the ice, painted twenty feet from center, creating three playing zones. Forward passing and kicking the puck were permitted in the middle neutral zone.
  • The NHL adopted the "Art Ross" puck instead of the "Spalding" puck.[12]
------------------------------
 
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Regardless of penalty rules, Sprague Cleghorn's PIMs weren't even all that high compared to other tough guys in the league, right?

His top 10 finishes in PIMs in the NHL (only because this is much easier to find than the NHA): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 8th. Five times out of ten season.

That doesn't include anything before his age 28 season, so maybe he went nuts in the NHA?

I mean, it's a lot of PIMs, but not absurdly high. Those 7th and 8th place finishes aren't even that noteworthy in a league that sometimes only had 20 starting skaters (5 per team times 4 teams). So really, at least after his age 28 season, he only had 3 of 10 years where he was among the leaders in PIMs.

Sprague's infamy seems to be from a couple of high profile instances of insanity, not from regular lack of discipline, as far as I know.
 
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Define elite? In the PCHA he has his 5 league leading in scoring seasons and then the one season (16-17) cut short by his appendicitis.

His 4 seasons in the ECHA/NHA where he was top 2 in defense scoring and managed to make the top 10 in scoring are also elite. His reputation as an elite-super star level player came from before he went west.

Can we please stop acting like "top 10" means something in a league that only has something like 20-40 starting players in it? Few teams + starters playing the whole game = top 10s are pretty meaningless.

At least use "top 5s" for quick and dirty comparisons.

(This also relates to my Cleghorn post that I just made)
 
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