Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 1

[tarheelhockey]

If Nighbor is #1 because of his tremendous value to the Ottawa franchise and their resultant success what do we make of Gerard, Benedict, Cleghorn and Denneny and their impacts on Ottawa's success?

it’s a bit late to respond to this question from early in the thread, but better late than never I suppose.

I think it’s valid to consider how a stacked roster might inflate the appearance of each individual’a contribution to the whole. But Nighbor’s relationship to the Senators is pretty unique.

- Usually when we ask these questions, we’re talking about statistical inflation. But the early-20s Sens were not an especially high scoring team. This is not a case where players were padding stats. If anything, Ottawa left some offensive production on the table in order to dominate defensively. You can’t play “kitty bar the door” hockey without giving up some opportunities. So it stands to reason that these players generally suffered a statistical deflation, giving up gaudy offensive numbers in exchange for Cup rings. That’s to their credit, not to their detriment, right?

- Nighbor played a special role as the centerpiece of that dominant defense. We all know how important centermen are to the 200-foot game in general, but this was a team that famously relied on its center as the keystone of their defensive “wall”. By all accounts, Nighbor’s machine-like control of the center lane was the biggest factor in that suffocating defensive dynasty. He was as important to the Sens’ defense as Bobby Orr to the Bruins’ power play — which is to say, they could have gotten along OK without him, but he is what elevated them to something really special.

- We have an uncommonly specific idea of what Nighbor was doing so effectively. Often we are left with vague suggestions that a player “checks back well” or “uses his stick effectively”. With Nighbor, we have detailed descriptions of the actual techniques that he could do better than anyone else. That gives us some validation that his reputation was based on more than just system results. Put him on a worse team and he still has the best defensive stick in hockey, just on a worse team.

That just seems like a lot of insulation against the concern with team effects. I think we can fairly level that charge against certain members of those teams (as much as I like Benedict, he does have to face that critique here), but Nighbor seems legitimately to have been the driving cause of team success rather than the beneficiary.

 

[rmartin65]

Votes for this stage are due in a little more than 7 hours!

 

[ImporterExporter]

Votes for this stage are due in a little more than 7 hours!

Any chance of pushing this back a day given the Super Bowl is happening? I know, stupid American sport haha. My top 5 is pretty well cemented but wanting to read up on the guys from 6-beyond a bit more, just to give everyone a fair shake.

If no wiggle room, I'll get my full list hammered out before the SB kicks off.

 

[seventieslord]

Any chance of pushing this back a day given the Super Bowl is happening? I know, stupid American sport haha. My top 5 is pretty well cemented but wanting to read up on the guys from 6-beyond a bit more, just to give everyone a fair shake.

If no wiggle room, I'll get my full list hammered out before the SB kicks off.

try, at least.

 

[jigglysquishy]

How many lists are we waiting on?

 

[Habsfan18]

That makes sense, thanks for pointing that out.

I have a list of hockey books/volumes I keep trying to find at reasonable prices, and that is certainly one of them.

It’s very unlikely you’ll find a copy of The Trail, especially volume 1, at a reasonable price. I paid $600 for the complete set of 3, and that’s actually on the lower end of what I’ve seen them go for. Mine are the cheaper blue cloth copies, and not the black leather-bound set.

They really were considered the “holy grail” for quite some time, and are still very useful to have in any hockey library, but definitely less so now with the emergence of archival sites such as newspapers.com. Also, there are some statistical inaccuracies.

But by all means, if you find a copy for a reasonable amount definitely scoop it up. Depends what you consider reasonable, as well. I wouldn’t blame you for not wanting to drop $150 on a single book!

 

[ImporterExporter]

try, at least.

It shall be done. ETA 5-6 pm EST.

 

[ResilientBeast]

It’s very unlikely you’ll find a copy of The Trail, especially volume 1, at a reasonable price. I paid $600 for the complete set of 3, and that’s actually on the lower end of what I’ve seen them go for. Mine are the cheaper blue cloth copies, and not the black leather-bound set.

They really were considered the “holy grail” for quite some time, and are still very useful to have in any hockey library, but definitely less so now with the emergence of archival sites such as newspapers.com. Also, there are some statistical inaccuracies.

But by all means, if you find a copy for a reasonable amount definitely scoop it up. Depends what you consider reasonable, as well. I wouldn’t blame you for not wanting to drop $150 on a single book!

I believe my set (mixed editions) that I received as a graduation present was around $800. They're so exclusive there is never a good deal lol

 

[ImporterExporter]

I still marvel at @Habsfan18 collection of hockey everything. It's honestly nice knowing there are people so dedicated to the sport. Don't get me wrong, I've grown to really, really, like hockey. The ATD was a huge part of that metamorphosis, from a more casual observer, to a passable (very low end) scholar on the history of the game.

But make no mistake, my dedication/passion can't be placed in the same ballpark as someone like Habs. People talk about love. To me, that's love of sport. Obviously he has a family and loves them in a much different/more spiritual/emotional way, but you don't, as a working class person, put together a collection of that magnitude, without passion. I know having spoke with him, that it's a long, long process.

Same goes for @nabby12

I enjoy your first hand accounts of the history of the game posted here, and need to open the wallet and read some of your actual published works.

I'm proud to have done some significant research/bios for this site, but even still, it pales in comparison to you two, and honestly numerous others I've encountered in these parts. Makes you feel comfortable in regards to keeping the history of the game from hitting the trash bins.

 

[seventieslord]

How many lists are we waiting on?

I have 7 of 16, and haven't submitted my own. In my experience, this is outstanding turnout for this time on Sunday. Usually most came in around 5-10 PM sunday nights in the last project I administered.

I am expecting 100% turnout but there's always one person (and it's usually not the same person) who forgets and needs a kick, or takes until monday morning, and that's ok, I'd rather wait to get their votes, but I am crossing my fingers that in week one, we don't see that.

 

[Habsfan18]

I still marvel at @Habsfan18 collection of hockey everything. It's honestly nice knowing there are people so dedicated to the sport. Don't get me wrong, I've grown to really, really, like hockey. The ATD was a huge part of that metamorphosis, from a more casual observer, to a passable (very low end) scholar on the history of the game.

But make no mistake, my dedication/passion can't be placed in the same ballpark as someone like Habs. People talk about love. To me, that's love of sport. Obviously he has a family and loves them in a much different/more spiritual/emotional way, but you don't, as a working class person, put together a collection of that magnitude, without passion. I know having spoke with him, that it's a long, long process.

Same goes for @nabby12

I enjoy your first hand accounts of the history of the game posted here, and need to open the wallet and read some of your actual published works.

I'm proud to have done some significant research/bios for this site, but even still, it pales in comparison to you two, and honestly numerous others I've encountered in these parts. Makes you feel comfortable in regards to keeping the history of the game from hitting the trash bins.

Thanks for the kind words, buddy. I appreciate that, truly. The collecting really has been a long journey for me, and a lifelong passion. I obviously plan to continue for a very long time, if my wallet (and wife, haha) allows it..with the eventual plan of passing everything down to my son one day. But really, my passion for anything and everything hockey history has only grown every year, and reading/collecting the books and publications that tell the stories will always be an important part of my life.

It’s the greatest game on planet earth. Always will be.

Cheers, my friend.

And your research work over the years here, is greatly appreciated. Incredible work. Especially the Pete Green stuff. Some of the most detailed research I’ve seen on here.

 

[Sturminator]

Just so we're clear, here's exhibit A:

The Daily Colonist (1923-10-21) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

With the definite assurance that Halderson and Frank Frederickson, the latter regarded by many devotees of hockey as the most brilliant player that ever put on a pair of skates and pushed around a puck, will be in Cougar uniforms this winter, fans will feel confident that the Victoria sextet will be sailing pretty at the expense of the other teams in the Coast and Prairie leagues that they will have as opponents.

Note the date. This is just months after Cyclone Taylor had retired. I see no glimpse of a shadow here. Victoria paper talking about a Victoria player on a Victoria team...all of this is true, but Vancouver is also a local team for that publication.

For it to even be a controversy - literally right down the block from where Taylor had starred - who was the best PCHA forward of all time on the day that he retired...I think that puts Cyclone Taylor's career in a bit of perspective.

 

[seventieslord]

we are only missing @Dreakmur and @overpass

 

[tarheelhockey]

Just so we're clear, here's exhibit A:

The Daily Colonist (1923-10-21) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

Note the date. This is just months after Cyclone Taylor had retired. I see no glimpse of a shadow here. Victoria paper talking about a Victoria player on a Victoria team...all of this is true, but Vancouver is also a local team for that publication.

For it to even be a controversy - literally right down the block from where Taylor had starred - who was the best PCHA forward of all time on the day that he retired...I think that puts Cyclone Taylor's career in a bit of perspective.

While your point is well taken, for what it’s worth, the Victoria Colonist was a rather “editorial” paper when it came to covering the Cougars. To hear them tell the story, the Cougars were the favorites at the beginning of every season.

I’m not certain, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were financial connections between the team and paper, similar to the Ottawa Citizen being a promotional organ of the Senators through Tommy Gorman.

Which is to say, this is a bit like quoting Stan Fischler. In a vacuum, it’s hard to say whether he’s identifying a real controversy or just firing off another hot-take for the purpose of selling papers.

 

[Sturminator]

While your point is well taken, for what it’s worth, the Victoria Colonist was a rather “editorial” paper when it came to covering the Cougars. To hear them tell the story, the Cougars were the favorites at the beginning of every season.

I’m not certain, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were financial connections between the team and paper, similar to the Ottawa Citizen being a promotional organ of the Senators through Tommy Gorman.

Which is to say, this is a bit like quoting Stan Fischler. In a vacuum, it’s hard to say whether he’s identifying a real controversy or just firing off another hot-take for the purpose of selling papers.

It could be a lot of things.

I personally think assuming it's a pure, sensationalist Fischlerism violates Ockham's Razor a bit, but your point is taken. Yes, there is almost certainly bias here. But it's also delivered in a very matter-of-fact tone that doesn't suggest it's meant to be taken as a controversial statement, either.

It sounds like there was a debate at the time in the greater Vancouver area as to who the greatest PCHA center is, was, or had been. However reasonable or unreasonable the respective partisans may have been, if you could seriously have that conversation at that time, it should tell us something.

 

[ResilientBeast]

It could be a lot of things.

I personally think assuming it's a pure, sensationalist Fischlerism violates Ockham's Razor a bit, but your point is taken. Yes, there is almost certainly bias here. But it's also delivered in a very matter-of-fact tone that doesn't suggest it's meant to be taken as a controversial statement, either.

It sounds like there was a debate at the time in the greater Vancouver area as to who the greatest PCHA center is, was, or had been. However reasonable or unreasonable the respective partisans may have been, if you could seriously have that conversation at that time, it should tell us something.

The Daily Columnist is consistently praising Victoria players over other teams. Reading game summaries you get the impression that Bobby Genge was among the best defensemen of the time given how frequently he receives "starring" mentions. The lack of a "shadow" for Taylor in specific mentions of a rival paper doesn't trouble me, when his contemporaries still have such glowing praise for him.

 

[Dreakmur]

we are only missing @Dreakmur and @overpass

Missing what?

 

[seventieslord]

Missing what?

Your votes for this week

 

[jigglysquishy]

Are we still waiting on the last 2 votes?

 

[seventieslord]

Are we still waiting on the last 2 votes?

just 1. Which I will accept right up until the moment I post results.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It could be a lot of things.

I personally think assuming it's a pure, sensationalist Fischlerism violates Ockham's Razor a bit, but your point is taken. Yes, there is almost certainly bias here. But it's also delivered in a very matter-of-fact tone that doesn't suggest it's meant to be taken as a controversial statement, either.

It sounds like there was a debate at the time in the greater Vancouver area as to who the greatest PCHA center is, was, or had been. However reasonable or unreasonable the respective partisans may have been, if you could seriously have that conversation at that time, it should tell us something.

We have Fredrickson in the next round, so hopefully that will turn up some additional evidence to give us an idea whether people in 1923 really felt he was in a conversation with Taylor.

Having spent quite a lot of time specifically reading 1920s issues of the Colonist, I enjoy their depth of coverage as a resource for local Victoria hockey topics, but I don’t take their cheerleading too seriously when it comes to rating the Cougars against others. An MVP “debate” in that paper was not necessarily a debate in the real world.