Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 1

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I just don't think there was any kind of consensus about Nighbor being #1. Yes he was held in immense respect by the NHL of the mid-late 20s, but opinions varied greatly on on all-time lists.
Ayup. I hadn't really intended to do this when I set off to make a point about how we look at old-timers and what is the bar for their greatness, but I'm glad we've had at least a little Taylor vs. Nighbor discussion in this thread instead of letting that comparison just pass into the night with Nighbor 1st and never another thought.

Frank Nighbor wasn't superman. He had his detractors, too.
 
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I recently found some information on Cyclone Taylor that I don't think had been uncovered before. Some of us, including myself, have expressed certain doubts about Taylor's all-around game (specifically defense) due to a lack of primary sources which mention anything other than his dazzling offensive play. I had been curious about his all-around play and about the reasons for the games he missed in the PCHA, as I had never heard of his suffering any injury. Here is a bit on Taylor's all-around game:

9.3.1918 - Spokane Daily Chronicle:



11.1.1913 - Ottawa Citizen:



11.11.1908 - The Pittsburgh Press:



And finally, another mention of Taylor's appendicitis.

3.1.1917 - The Spokane Daily Chronicle:



------------------------------------------------------

So it looks like Taylor suffered from some unusual form of long-term chronic appendicitis (a bit like Harry Houdini?) which eventually was operated on late in 1916, causing him to miss basically the entire season.

He does seem to have been a good two-way or "all-around" player, though his defensive efforts were clearly overshadowed by his offensive prowess. Single sources are of questionable value, but there are a few corroborating points of evidence here about Taylor's two-way play, and contemporary quotes like "exceptionally strong" carry a good deal of weight.

I think this is probably enough to move the needle on our perception of Taylor a bit. I am now quite uncertain as to who I would choose between he and Nighbor as the greatest player of the pre-Morenz era.

While digging through my bios for more contemporary commentary regarding Nighbor/Taylor I found this bit I had quoted. This passage quoting you @Sturminator on the more all around aspects of Taylor's game from the dishing the dirt thread has that last line. Obviously you're not beholden to beliefs you held 8+ years ago. But what ultimately tipped the scales back for you regarding Nighbor?
 
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While digging through my bios for more contemporary commentary regarding Nighbor/Taylor I found this bit I had quoted. This passage quoting you @Sturminator on the more all around aspects of Taylor's game from the dishing the dirt thread has that last line. Obviously you're not beholden to beliefs you held 8+ years ago. But what ultimately tipped the scales back for you regarding Nighbor?
My extended research into the PCHA, for one, and the relative lack of a shadow Taylor seemed to have cast in the minds of those writers.

The continued growth of our collective understanding of what those Ottawa Sens teams were has been part of the process, as well. I wasn't all the way there in terms of understanding how those teams ticked 8 years ago, so part of it is that my esteem has grown for Frank Nighbor in the meantime, while remaining basically flat vis-a-vis Taylor.

That's basically it.

With respect to your suggestion that Nighbor's star had (I use the past tense because here we are) faded over the years compared to Taylor, I think this is little more than an appeal to "the zeitgeist of the casual", which isn't really an argument that belongs here, no offense.

Taylor was a much more colorful player than Nighbor. He once scored a goal skating backwards! Nighbor's greatness was of a flavor much more easily faded by time.
 
We've had differing impressions regarding the contemporary accounts then. But that's up to the interpretation of the reader I suppose.
If you want a completely frank (no pun intended) assessment, I've also become more skeptical of Taylor's team performances over the PCHA years.

Why didn't his PCHA teams go anywhere in the playoffs? Were they so bad other than Taylor? Why were Frank Foyston's Seattle teams better? This isn't me being cagey...I honestly don't know. You'd think that Taylor would have been able to carry that franchise somewhere without building a superteam, n'est ce pas?

I won't go so far as to say that the only people Taylor ever beat for the Cup without a superteam were mounties and fur trappers, but it is kinda true, isn't it? I do put a heavy discount on titles won in the "Cup Challenge Era".
 
If I may be pedantic- games were held on weeknights, too. The game was also already international, with the major professional leagues of the time (the IPHL and WPHL, if I remember correctly) being either completely US franchises or a mixture of Canadian and US teams.

I'm not here trying to say that the quality of hockey didn't improve- it absolutely did. I just don't think it was this kind of jump that rendered earlier eras obsolete. The addition of European players to the NA leagues didn't make earlier NA stars any less great, so I don't understand why the same idea wouldn't hold water in this case.

I didn’t express that thought clearly enough. I was referring to the entire period of ~50 years covered by the project, the “weekend warriors” comment was directed at 1870s hockey, where I find it extraordinarily unlikely that there were legitimate generational talents at play. Then the comparison to the other end of the timeline, mid-1920s hockey, where the game was fully professionalized with a talent pool in the tens (hundreds?) of thousands. Being the best center in the world isn’t a big deal if there are only 5 centers in the world, but it’s a big deal for guys like Nighbor and Morenz who surpassed thousands of hopefuls just to get the job, let alone excel in it.

Bowie is challenging because he kind of has a foot in both worlds — his era was not nearly as competitive as the 1920s, but it was much more competitive than the 1880s. So there’s a balancing act in identifying where he stands relative to the more modern stars.

Often, I resolve these challenges by asking myself: if a Real Deal Generational Talent came along at a particular time, what would it look like? What would his stats look like realistically? What would his style of play look like? How long would he stick around? What kind of team impact would he have?

With all that said, I think you have an interesting point about using the “transitive property” of hockey talent to observe Bowie’s production against players who were highly productive against 1910s/20s competition. Bowie performs well against those guys, which is what you would expect from a player who would have performed well if he had lived in a different era.
 
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If you want a completely frank (no pun intended) assessment, I've also become more skeptical of Taylor's team performances over the PCHA years.

Why didn't his PCHA teams go anywhere in the playoffs? Were they so bad other than Taylor? Why were Frank Foyston's Seattle teams better? This isn't me being cagey...I honestly don't know. You'd think that Taylor would have been able to carry that franchise somewhere without building a superteam, n'est ce pas?

I won't go so far as to say that the only people Taylor ever beat for the Cup without a superteam were mounties and fur trappers, but it is kinda true, isn't it? I do put a heavy discount on titles won in the "Cup Challenge Era".

Just to lay out the record for everyone else who hasn't spent nearly the same amount of time as us on the PCHA. "Go anywhere in the playoffs"

When the PCHA had an actual playoff which is only from 1917 forward.
1917-18 - Vancouver beats Seattle, they lose to Toronto in the finals
1918-19 - Seattle beats Vancouver
1919-20 - Taylor is washed

Posting the same table I did for top teams with just Seattle and Vancouver. The Mets were far better about keeping the puck out of their own net when compared to Vancouver.

MacKay's offense in this stretch is bad until he comes back to Vancouver after the Cully Wilson incident, then it improves once again. Taylor leads the Millionaires by 10+ points in all his full seasons once Nighbor leaves.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]W[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]T[/TD]
[TD]GF[/TD]
[TD]GA[/TD]
[TD]Points[/TD]
[TD]% Offence[/TD]
[TD]e WP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1915-1916[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]

[TD]
18​
[/TD]

[TD]
9​
[/TD]

[TD]
9​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
75​
[/TD]

[TD]
69​
[/TD]

[TD]
18​
[/TD]

[TD]
50.0%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.541667​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1915-1916[/TD]
[TD]Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]

[TD]
18​
[/TD]

[TD]
9​
[/TD]

[TD]
9​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
68​
[/TD]

[TD]
67​
[/TD]

[TD]
18​
[/TD]

[TD]
43.8%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.506944​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1916-1917[/TD]
[TD]Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]

[TD]
24​
[/TD]

[TD]
16​
[/TD]

[TD]
8​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
125​
[/TD]

[TD]
80​
[/TD]

[TD]
32​
[/TD]

[TD]
42.3%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.696078​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1916-1917[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]

[TD]
23​
[/TD]

[TD]
14​
[/TD]

[TD]
9​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
131​
[/TD]

[TD]
124​
[/TD]

[TD]
28​
[/TD]

[TD]
60.5%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.530501​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1917-1918[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]

[TD]
18​
[/TD]

[TD]
9​
[/TD]

[TD]
9​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
70​
[/TD]

[TD]
60​
[/TD]

[TD]
18​
[/TD]

[TD]
47.8%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.575​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1917-1918[/TD]
[TD]Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]

[TD]
18​
[/TD]

[TD]
11​
[/TD]

[TD]
7​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
67​
[/TD]

[TD]
65​
[/TD]

[TD]
22​
[/TD]

[TD]
49.0%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.515​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1918-1919[/TD]
[TD]Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]

[TD]
20​
[/TD]

[TD]
11​
[/TD]

[TD]
9​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
66​
[/TD]

[TD]
46​
[/TD]

[TD]
22​
[/TD]

[TD]
44.2%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.664835​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1918-1919[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]

[TD]
20​
[/TD]

[TD]
12​
[/TD]

[TD]
8​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
72​
[/TD]

[TD]
55​
[/TD]

[TD]
24​
[/TD]

[TD]
53.6%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.64011​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1919-1920[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]

[TD]
22​
[/TD]

[TD]
11​
[/TD]

[TD]
11​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
75​
[/TD]

[TD]
65​
[/TD]

[TD]
22​
[/TD]

[TD]
58.6%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.578534​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1919-1920[/TD]
[TD]Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]

[TD]
22​
[/TD]

[TD]
12​
[/TD]

[TD]
10​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
59​
[/TD]

[TD]
55​
[/TD]

[TD]
24​
[/TD]

[TD]
40.1%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.531414​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1920-1921[/TD]
[TD]Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]

[TD]
24​
[/TD]

[TD]
12​
[/TD]

[TD]
11​
[/TD]

[TD]
1​
[/TD]

[TD]
77​
[/TD]

[TD]
68​
[/TD]

[TD]
25​
[/TD]

[TD]
43.3%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.557447​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1920-1921[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]

[TD]
24​
[/TD]

[TD]
13​
[/TD]

[TD]
11​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
86​
[/TD]

[TD]
78​
[/TD]

[TD]
26​
[/TD]

[TD]
54.2%​
[/TD]

[TD]
0.551064​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
I have quite a bit of hesitation about putting players of earlier generations on level ground with their successors, because of the speed at which the game developed in this 50-year period. In that span of time we went from a few dozen country-clubbers playing for fun on weekends, to a fully professionalized international industry in huge stadiums. 10 years makes a huge difference… things were changing that fast.

That being said, you make a good argument for Bowie here. One can acknowledge that the early 1980s NHL was a… loose league, but also note the overlaps which validated the talent of Gretzky and Messier over a decade later, against guys who are just now retiring in the 2020s. It’s not precise and there’s a lot of room for interpretation, but certain players are exceptional enough to earn that benefit of the doubt.

I often analogize the early development of the NHL to the early development of European hockey.

In the 1950s, the Soviet Union coverted many of its best athletes to hockey, as hockey was a prestigious Olympic sport. But until 1962 or so, the Soviet best regularly got smoked by Canadian amateurs not even good enough to play in the NHL. Then, almost overnight, sometimes around 1963, the new generation of Soviets (led by Firsov, Starshinov, etc) completely flipped things and started smoking the Canadian amateurs, to the point where Canada didn't even want to play them anymore. My semi-educated opinion is that the huge change happened when the first Soviet generation to grow up playing hockey as children came of age.

Who was the first North American generation to grow up playing hockey as children?

_______

Semi-related, we do know that when Bowie dominated, all the top level players came from just a handful of cities in eastern Canada and their suburbs. The subsequent generation had a much broader talent pool from across most of Canada.

When Bowie dominated, a player had to have enough independent wealth to survive as an amateur player; not so when the leagues professionalized.

________

There's a wide range on how good Bowie could have been. At the best, he could have been as good as Cyclone Taylor, but with better elite longevity compared to his generation than Taylor. But at his worst, he may not have been much better than Marty Walsh. Walsh hopefully ends up on his list, but not for a long time. I say Marty Walsh, because he is one of the future NHA stars who Bowie barely beat out for his final scoring title.
 
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The impression I get reading the news articles is Nighbor > Taylor more than Nighbor >>> Taylor. More of a Messier to Yzerman. Or stylistically, Beliveau to Hull.

I'm voting Nighbor first, but I haven't seen any evidence that the gap is massive. The 1925 lists don't have a gap.

Nighbor got 1st Team center by a wide margin though.

Taylor got votes from all the positions - wouldn't you think it would be easier to get a vote if writers could use multiple positions to recognize you?

I mean, now that we know Taylor's votes were all over the place, he does look more impressive on the 1925 list than I thought, but I still find Nighbor dominating the center ice position (the position where Taylor SHOULD have gotten votes if he had to be shoe-horned) to be noticeably more impressive.

Also, save it for later that the the 1925 all-time all-star list really drives home that, in terms of star power, the PCHA seemed to be Taylor and Lehman, then the rest.

One thing that stands out for me in these best player retrospectives, it seems like people remembered Taylor and Nighbor a tier above Lalonde. Even if the offensive numbers between Lalonde and Taylor are close, opinion seems to skew strongly to Taylor.

In any case, I am very confident in who is our top 3 and the order they are in.

Part of that is that, since they played in the same league, Nighbor vs Lalonde was a much easier comparison than either vs Taylor.
 
Often, I resolve these challenges by asking myself: if a Real Deal Generational Talent came along at a particular time, what would it look like? What would his stats look like realistically? What would his style of play look like? How long would he stick around? What kind of team impact would he have?
Bowie's stat line kind of looks like this.

Seasons like 1901, where he has 24 goals and 2nd place is at 10.

Or 1903 where he has 22 in 7. McGee has 14 in 6, and his legend is held up for decades.

He has what, 4 years where he leads in goals by 50%?

Couple this with the best longevity as an elite player of the amateur era. Like, he was playing elite hockey when Taylor and Lalonde were starting out.
 
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I mean, now that we know Taylor's votes were all over the place, he does look more impressive on the 1925 list than I thought, but I still find Nighbor dominating the center ice position (the position where Taylor SHOULD have gotten votes if he had to be shoe-horned) to be noticeably more impressive.

But this is the issue with Taylor we run into in the ATD. What position is he truly best represented by? The quotes I posted earlier put Nighbor at C, but all make a point to call Taylor the greatest utility player or outright call him the best Rover.

And I agree shoe-horning him at center would be the best way for them to signal their relative greatness.

Season By Season Scoring Exploits - Using the SIHR Database
LeagueSeasonTeamPositionGPGAPointsPIM
IHL1906-1907Portage Lake-HoughtonR/CP/P231872531
ECAHA1907-1908Ottawa Hockey ClubCover10931240
ECHA1908-1909Ottawa Hockey ClubCover11941326
NHA1909-1910Renfrew Creamery KingsCover1290914
NHA1910-1911Renfrew Creamery KingsCover161292121
PCHA1912-1913Vancouver MillionairesRover14108185
PCHA1913-1914Vancouver MillionairesCenter1624153918
PCHA1914-1915Vancouver MillionairesRover162421459
PCHA1915-1916Vancouver MillionairesRover182213359
PCHA1916-1917Vancouver MillionairesRover1114152912
PCHA1917-1918Vancouver MillionairesCenter183211430
PCHA1918-1919Vancouver MillionairesCenter2023133612
PCHA1919-1920Vancouver MillionairesCenter1066120

To eastern observers the first time he was an actual center was the 1918 playoffs.
- 4 seasons at cover
- 4 seasons at rover
- 3 seasons at center
 
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I know Iain Fyffe has used a few different approaches. Is this one of the ones where defensive play is (essentially) ignored? (In which case his small deficit relative to Taylor and Lalonde seems almost trivial). Or is the version where he has some type of "fudge" for defensive play?


Completely agree.
No fudge. Only credit based on the fact that he was the center on a very good defensive team, which gives him less credit than goalies, point and cover point.
 
No fudge. Only credit based on the fact that he was the center on a very good defensive team, which gives him less credit than goalies, point and cover point.

To elaborate, using marginal goals he determined how many of a team points the system can assume are assigned to the teams offense and defense.

Then the teams results get split into two chunks and divided offensively based on their point totals and defensively based upon positional value for defense. There is a bit of fudge for players with acclaim defensively
 
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Who was the first North American generation to grow up playing hockey as children?
Wouldn't it be Bowie's generation?

First hockey game is before he was born. He was 3 when the Kingston league was founded and 6 when the Montreal one was. Stanley Cup is first awarded whene he was 13.

By 1895 (age 15) the sport had grown so there were leagues in every eastern city. Hell, it got to the point where a blacks only league existed in 1895.

He's 24 when the first pro league came into existence and 29 when the NHA comes into being. At 30, hockey had dozens of leagues across the continent.

There's only a 4 year gap between Taylor and Bowie.

I understand the skepticism of players who had their primes in the 1890s, and certainly 1880s. But Bowie really is that first group that grew up with hockey.
 
To elaborate, using marginal goals he determined how many of a team points the system can assume are assigned to the teams offense and defense.

Then the teams results get split into two chunks and divided offensively based on their point totals and defensively based upon positional value for defense. There is a bit of fudge for players with acclaim defensively
I've been saying there's no fudge. If there is, my apologies. Where did he say there is?
 
I've been saying there's no fudge. If there is, my apologies. Where did he say there is?

Point Allocation on Defence

"The same logic is used for the amount of defence assigned to each position as a baseline. The standard defensive contribution of each position is determined based on the league-wide offensive contribution of each position, such that each position is approximately equal in overall value. On top of this, and the adjustment mentioned above, we have the other big 'ole fudge factor. Players with excellent defensive reputations have their defensive value adjusted upwards, and those with poor reputations are adjusted downwards. It's as much art as science, of course, but just doing straight computations on these numbers will produce less accurate results than if we apply what we know about these players, that is not necessarily reflected in their stats."

So the basis of his defensive point allocation is strictly based on marginal goals saved, but he makes provisions to adjust the scores.

A follow up article elaborates on this with regard to the 25/26 senators

More on Defence in Point Allocation

"So, in addition to the defensive fudge factor which I've talked about before, the fact that Point Allocation uses estimates of minutes played also plays an extremely important role in reasonably crediting defensive points. It'll never be more than an estimate, as I've said many times before, but estimating minutes is far more accurate than not doing so, ironically. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's actually the more important factor of the two, and as such I should have mentioned before now. Sorry about that.

Just to illustrate the fudge factor, though, let's look at the Point Allocation results if it were not included. You'll see historic greats Boucher, Clancy and Nighbor much closer to the lesser players defensively, and that's the entire reason for the fudge. Also see Alex Smith being overrated, because the system interprets his lack of offence as an indication of good defence"

Personally I like his system and as I've said, attempted to replicate it for my own interest and research, but there are a lot of fudges baked into it that I can't replicate myself. But it's a good statistical treatment for the era.

The basis of defensive point allocation is, if they managed to play a considerable amount of games/estimated minutes but didn't score level with their position they had to be good at something.
 
Thanks for that.

What I'm reading is that each position is treated as being equal value, not every player.

I think your last paragraph kind of implies the latter, as though every defenseman is worth the same, just with different offense/defense breakdowns.
 
You say this as a condemnation of Bowie, but what does that say about Lalonde, whom Walsh actually healthily outscored in the same number of games in 1911 (35 goals to 19)? Are we overrating Lalonde?

Yeah yeah yeah, nice edgy way to point out that I didn't mention their relative ages.

The point is that it's hard to put a true value on Bowie when he was beating out a field of players of most likely lesser talent. He didn't even play in the same league as Tommy Phillips until the very end of his career, and it's not like he beat Phillips by all that much either.
 
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Yeah yeah yeah, nice edgy way to point out that I didn't mention their relative ages.
It wasn't meant to be edgy; my bad if it comes off that way.

The point is that it's hard to put a true value on Bowie when he was beating out a field of players of most likely lesser talent. He didn't even play in the same league as Tommy Phillips until the very end of his career, and it's not like he beat Phillips by all that much either.
I'd argue the leagues Bowie was playing in were stronger than the ones Phillips was playing in before Phillips joined the ECAHA, and I'd also point out the talent level of teammates with that comparison; Phillips scored roughly 30% of his team's goals that year, while Bowie was at roughly 40%, if we are taking the Wiki numbers as truth. Sure, Phillips brought more to the table in other areas of the game than Bowie, but Bowie was absolutely substantially more valuable to his team offensively than Phillips was.
 
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I'd argue the leagues Bowie was playing in were stronger than the ones Phillips was playing in before Phillips joined the ECAHA,

Absolutely, the ECAHA was definitely the best league in the world at the time.
and I'd also point out the talent level of teammates with that comparison; Phillips scored roughly 30% of his team's goals that year, while Bowie was at roughly 40%, if we are taking the Wiki numbers as truth. Sure, Phillips brought more to the table in other areas of the game than Bowie, but Bowie was absolutely substantially more valuable to his team offensively than Phillips was.

Sorry, I don't have time to go through the stats, you're talking about Phillips' single season in the same league as Bowie, right?

Believe me, I will rank Bowie way higher than Marty Walsh, I was just trying to be the one to present the anti-Bowie (or more precisely anti-Bowie's generation) argument.

I'm still uncertain on Bowie vs Joe Malone, but I guess there's really no precise argument there either way.
 
Absolutely, the ECAHA was definitely the best league in the world at the time.
Ok, cool, I read your post with a different inflection and was confused.
Sorry, I don't have time to go through the stats, you're talking about Phillips' single season in the same league as Bowie, right?
Technically it was like one and a half (Phillips played 4 games for Montreal HC in the CAHL in 1903), but yes, I was making the comparison between Bowie and Phillips in 1908. Bowie had 31 of the Vics' 73 goals, while Phillips had 26 of Ottawa's 86. I can re-address this when I get through the primary sources for this season to see if there are any notable changes. Walsh also beat Phillips too that season, for what it is worth.

Believe me, I will rank Bowie way higher than Marty Walsh, I was just trying to be the one to present the anti-Bowie (or more precisely anti-Bowie's generation) argument.
I certainly hope so, haha. I just don't see how Bowie actually beating Walsh hurts his legacy more than Walsh beating Lalonde hurts Lalonde's legacy. Bowie's era was weak, definitely, but there were plenty of guys who played both Amateur and Pro hockey and did well at both. Talent is talent, regardless of era.

I'm still uncertain on Bowie vs Joe Malone, but I guess there's really no precise argument there either way.
This project has interested me for a long time because I think we are going to run into this type of thing a lot. We've had some good discussion this week, and I hope it continues as the project rolls on.
 
Back to Taylor's playoff legacy and the Millionaires inability to win anything after Nighbor left in 1915-16.

Nighbor leaves and joins a team with the below talent and it takes them 5 years and they win in 1920. Nighbor wasn't such a transcendent talent that he could carry a team to the cup by himself, why should we hold Taylor to a higher standard?

The team he played for in 1915-16 had
- Nighbor (23 years old)
- Darragh (25 years old)
- Gerard (25 years old)
- Ross (30 years old)
- Boucher (19 years old)
- Benedict (23 years old)
- H.Shore (29 years old)

The following season Ottawa is further strengthened by the addition of Cy Denneny (25 years old)

He left Taylor with the following. .
- Taylor (31 years old)
- MacKay (21 years old)
- L.Cook (25 years old)
- Stanley (23 years old)
- Griffis(32 years old)
- Duncan (24 years old)
- F.Patrick (30 years old)
- Lehman (30 years old)

Now looking back, I can't see how you can claim that Taylor should've been able to carry such a team to a cup single handedly when Nighbor on arguably a stronger team as a younger man couldn't.

Nighbor's Senators
1915-16 - No playoffs finish second to Lalonde's Habs
1916-17 - Lose in the playoffs to Lalonde's Habs
1917-18 - Don't make the weird first half-second half playoffs, if they just combined even then Ottawa would be third
1918-19 - Lose in the playoffs to Lalonde's Habs

By 1919-20 the Senators are the dominant team and there is no need for a playoff as they lead both first and second half and the Sens defeat the Mets before repeating against the post Taylor Millionaires.

I just can't agree with labeling Nighbor this transcendental talent who single handedly willed the Senators to victory something Taylor couldn't. He with a reasonably well talented team couldn't get past Lalonde until 1920. The Habs of 19-20 finished 2nd in the NHL with the following roster.

- Lalonde (32 years old)
- Arbour (25 years old)
- Pitre (36 years old)
- Vezina (33 years old)
- O.Cleghorn (28 years old)
- Cameron (29 years old)
- Belinguette (32 years old)

The Senators were a perfect storm of good young talent growing together into a dominant team which Nighbor was the figurehead of and deserves acclaim but assassinating Taylor's record as the Millionaires "couldn't go anywhere in the playoffs" is ridiculous. The 20s Sens had the best player in the NHL for the period (Nighbor), either the best or second best goalie (Benedict), the two of the best defensemen of the time.
 
Joe Malone

I wanted to put something out on Joe Malone before the vote tomorrow. He's always been an interesting player to me, as he seems to be the most well-known of these players among people with a casual knowledge of hockey history, mainly due to his various goal records. I took a not-so-quick look around for some snippets today and will post some of the more illuminating ones here... not much structure to this, just some quotes that go beyond the fluffy ATD bio stuff.

To get it out of the way first... there's the whole Nighbor thing. Newspapers at the time picked up on Malone vs. Ottawa and the Nighbor Effect, to the point that Malone, despite not playing a similar style as Nighbor, seemed to be compared most often to him. Here's an assortment of some of the more colourful - and possibly slanted - quotes:

Ottawa Journal - 5 March 1917 said:
Joe Malone and Frank Nighbor are tied as the leading goal getters in the NHA. And there is not a cleaner pair of players on the whole circuit than Malone and Nighbor... It is an odd fact that Nighbor has been harassed and nagged all through the season, while Malone is seldom the butt for opposing players.

The answer lies here: Nighbor irritates opposing payers, not only by the skill with which he pops in goals, but by his persistence in trailing the puck, and his almost uncanny efficiency in snagging it off the other fellow's stick... Malone as a player is not of the same value as Nighbor even though by circumstances he is tied with the Pembroke boy in scoring. Malone has done his work in bursts, while Nighbor has plugged steadily. Nor is Malone the equal of Nighbor in speed or back-checking ability. But for sheer stick-wizardry, particulary close to the nets, Malone has the edge.

Ottawa Journal - 30 December 1921 said:
The forward line is a good one, consisting of Joe Malone, Nighbor's only rival, and a great little gentleman, Prodgers, the 'titian terror' Cully Wilson, and midget Geo. Carey.

Ottawa Citizen - 8 March 1923 said:
...Ottawa's “steam roller” system worked to perfection as Odie Cleghorn, Joliat, and Joe Malone, who succeeded Couture, were staggering around in their tracks. Billy Boucher was the only Canadien player who appeared to stand the gruelling pace and when the Ottawas switched their lineup and put brother Georges up on the line to cover him, Billy evidently gave up in despair... Frank Nighbor played a typical Nighbor game at centre. He had Odie Cleghorn faded and when Joe Malone came on, Nighbor just toyed with the Quebec veteran.

Ottawa Citizen - 14 January 1920 said:
Seven thousand people have already told me all about the big game so there is no need to repeat, but I'll bet very few really know how Ottawa made the wonderful Joe Malone resemble a selling plater. Well, it was this way: Did you notice how Frank Nighbor hung back near centre and also that his name figures in the goal scoring only once, which was the result of a shot from away out; and that Jack Darragh after a rush, looked around many times, only to see that Mr. Nighbor was not where he usually is? And did you hear shrieks from the Ottawa bench every time anyone rushed of: “Come back, Frankie, come back!” Well, that was it. Foxy old Petie Green just laid Nighbor in the rear and let the others do the rushing. And every time Mr. Malone got through he found a tall, dark headed man with a long stick and steel spring legs waiting to rob him of the puck. And pretty soon Joe realized what was being hung over him and his smile changed to a look of despair.

Occasionally, Quebec papers would fire back...

Quebec Chronicle - 3 February 1917 said:
Joe Malone has always been the cleanest player in the league, despite Ottawa sporting writers' continued drawing of halos around Frank Nighbor. Nighbor was penalized four times in the first series, while Malone was not ruled off once.

Obviously, nobody in this thread needs to be sold on Nighbor vs. Malone (I assume?), but it's pretty stark how easily and how often Malone was neutralized by his rival in Ottawa.

One possibly explanation, at least for a period in Malone's prime with Quebec, is a lack of size:

Quebec Chronicle - 7 January 1916 said:
The only way to stop Malone, Smith, Crawford, and Marks is to throw the body into them at every chance.

Quebec Chronicle - 14 March 1916 said:
The Bulldogs just now are about the lightest team in the league.

Quebec Chronicle - 7 January 1916 said:
Will somebody please say why sporting writers in Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto, refer to Quebec as a heavy team. Harry Mummery is weighty we admit, but Harry is not the whole team... Surely no one will say that Billy Bell is lighter than Rusty Crawford or that Joe Malone is heavier than big Roberts... But Quebec is gritty and their determination makes them appear sturdy... Please look over the Quebec team next time and see others besides Harry Mummery.

Interestingly, these next two quotes, from two consecutive seasons, use the phrase 'old-time', implying that Malone wasn't quite at his peak anymore:

Quebec Chronicle - 8 January 1916 said:
Joe Malone, who appears to have regained his old-time form and skill, jumped into the lead in the race for the NHA scoring honours on Wednesday night when he notched four of the goals scored by the Bulldogs against the Wanderers.

Quebec Chronicle - 25 January 1917 said:
Joe Malone, who played one of his old-time games, charged in on top of him time and again, but he either stopped the rubber, it hit him, or missed the net.

It's made clear that Malone's later years, even going back to when he's a leading scorer in Hamilton, were hampered by his business interests outside of hockey taking up more of his time. His hesitancy to report to Hamilton after Quebec relocates there is well-covered, and by the time his years with the Tigers are over, he's involved in trade rumours to send him back to the Habs. A three-team deal where Reg Noble comes to Hamilton, Newsy Lalonde is sent to Toronto, and Malone returns to the Canadiens nearly goes through, before finally he gets sent to Montreal for Edmond Bouchard, a winger.

Sprague Cleghorn explained the problems for Malone in his first year back in Montreal, and offered a positive view of his remaining years:

Montreal Star - 6 December 1923 said:
Joe Malone, who has been one of the NHL's outstanding players on and off the ice of thirteen years, appears to be in for another good season. As all know, Joe is popular and everyone on the team is glad to see him round into good form. Malone last year was seriously handicapped when he was allowed to miss the training trip to allow him to tend to his business. He also missed all of the team's practise during the past season and the result was that those who were not conversant with these facts declared Joe's hockey playing days were over. With Hamilton two years ago Joe's managerial worries did not prevent him from finishing second scorer of the league... A man is not old at 32 and there is plenty of hockey left in Joe.

It turned out there wasn't plenty of hockey left in the Phantom, and after about a month of hockey playing strictly as a substitute, he retired.

Going backward for a minute, the feeling I get from reading about the Hamilton Tigers is that their downfall was in goaltending, followed by a lack of offensive skill around Malone, followed by tactics. Most game recaps paint a picture of Hamilton being competitive, but clearly at a lower level compared to their opponents. On a few different occasions, Pete Green subs out his entire starting forward lineup when Ottawa plays them, in preparation for their next game.

Ottawa Citizen - 10 February 1921 said:
Tigers lived up to their reputations as the most erratic team in the NHL. They were really brilliant in flashes and very bad in others... Tigers made many changes, but it is doubtful if their system in rapid fire substitutions helps the club any. Some of their men were just settled down, in fact, when the hook was applied.

Hamilton had Harry Mummery - who, in fairness, was as physiologically qualified to be a goalkeeper as any skater could hope to be - playing goal more times than I'm sure they'd have liked to admit (Mummery seemed to be the Hal Gill of his day, from what I've gathered?), while I counted one single game where Howard Lockhart is described as having played a good match. And the only skater who ever showed any offensive promise besides Malone, based on game recaps, was Mickey Roach, who was described after one game as having outplayed the Phantom. That's it.

---

I don't know. My gut feeling tells me that Malone is closer to the Denneny type of player than the Nighbor/Lalonde type, but he did his work with less help than Denneny, so he should be somewhere in the middle. I know Iain Fyffe says on his site that he thinks Tommy Smith was better than Malone when they were winning Cups in Quebec, but for this I was focusing more on his NHL and late-NHA career, where he was still putting up the huge numbers but just didn't have the impact you'd like to see, based on what the papers say. On one hand, he really does seem to have been dealt a tough hand in Hamilton, but on the other, there's basically nothing to suggest that he was doing anything to help the team at that point in his career outside of his scoring, so... I don't know.

I think I'll probably have Bowie ahead of him. Just feels to me like he was the more impactful offensive player.
 

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