Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 1

[ResilientBeast]

Great teams tend to have several great players.

I see no paradox. Nighbor was crucial to the system, but the other guys pushed the team to dynastic proportions.

Okay, but if we strip away the "dynastic proportions" are we even talking about Nighbor at #1? Wouldn't he look more like a defensive Malone?

Points: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10

I believe are Nighbor's top 10 points finished

 

[rmartin65]

As for Bowie, I had him 9th originally, but I could be talked up. I like him a lot, and I can easily accept that I might have underrated him, because yeah, he wasn't on a stacked Senators team.

I also see that Lalonde was mentioned since I started typing this, and I had him third. Did I subconsciously apply different standards to him and Bowie to have six spots between them?

I got you, I’ll be posting a lot on Bowie throughout the week. But as a preview- I think you underrated him, and I’ll endeavor to show you why.

 

[Professor What]

Okay, but if we strip away the "dynastic proportions" are we even talking about Nighbor at #1? Wouldn't he look more like a defensive Malone?

Points: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10

I believe are Nighbor's top 10 points finished

The man was also basically a walking Selke though wasn't he? That's pretty impressive offense for a guy that defensively responsible.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Okay, but if we strip away the "dynastic proportions" are we even talking about Nighbor at #1? Wouldn't he look more like a defensive Malone?

Points: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10

I believe are Nighbor's top 10 points finished

I have Cyclone Taylor at #1. His reputation was greater for too long for me to ignore.

 

[ResilientBeast]

The man was also basically a walking Selke though wasn't he? That's pretty impressive offense for a guy that defensively responsible.

That's going to be the hardest part for us to quantify. My read is of the era Nighbor and Jack Walker were the dominant defensive players.

And yes that is pretty good offense, but we're comparing him to Bowie/Malone/Taylor/Lalonde who had superhuman offense

 

[ResilientBeast]

I have Cyclone Taylor at #1. His reputation was greater for too long for me to ignore.

You don't know how shook I am by this revelation

 

[BenchBrawl]

But then isn’t it unfair to criticize a guy like Bowie (or Lalonde) for lack of team success in comparison to those guys, as they didn’t have the helpers to push the team to dynastic heights?

Need to find a balance between accomplishments and circumstances.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'm trying to track to evolution of Nighbor's rankings reputation. He was 29th amongst centres in 2008 (3rd amongst eligible players). He climbed to 8th (1st amongst eligible) in 2013. He climbed further to 6th in the most recent top 100.

Can anyone link to a rationale to the rapid rise? Like an hfboards thread after people dug into the newspapers? Was there a specific user who championed the change?

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'm trying to track to evolution of Nighbor's rankings reputation. He was 29th amongst centres in 2008 (3rd amongst eligible players). He climbed to 8th (1st amongst eligible) in 2013. He climbed further to 6th in the most recent top 100.

Can anyone link to a rationale to the rapid rise? Like an hfboards thread after people dug into the newspapers? Was there a specific user who championed the change?

I wasn't there at the time, but I believe nik jr's Nighbor biography was the spark.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'm trying to track to evolution of Nighbor's rankings reputation. He was 29th amongst centres in 2008 (3rd amongst eligible players). He climbed to 8th (1st amongst eligible) in 2013. He climbed further to 6th in the most recent top 100.

Can anyone link to a rationale to the rapid rise? Like an hfboards thread after people dug into the newspapers? Was there a specific user who championed the change?

I made this last week Taylor/Lalonde/Nighbor's draft position in the ATD

So @BenchBrawl is likely correct about the catalyst being a good bio

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Am I wrong for having Eddie Gerard as the second highest Senator? Not counting Cleghorn.

Gerard certainly had the 2nd highest "star power" behind Nighbor on those teams. Denneny, despite his gaudy stats, was seen as semi-replaceable, while I've yet to see a case for Benedict that didn't rely heavily on team-oriented stats.

Only downside to Gerard was a relative lack of longevity.

Okay, but if we strip away the "dynastic proportions" are we even talking about Nighbor at #1? Wouldn't he look more like a defensive Malone?

Points: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10

I believe are Nighbor's top 10 points finished

Nighbor was a pass-first player playing a a time when assists were probably under-recorded so any straight up "points finishes" likely underrates him compared to a more goal-oriented player like Joe Malone or Newsy Lalonde.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I wasn't there at the time, but I believe nik jr's Nighbor biography was the spark.

People in this thread shouldn't have to go hunting around the ATD board.

This is the definitive bio of Frank Nighbor from HOH, in my opinion, the most important single post ever made on hfboards relating to hockey history: ATD 2010 Bios

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Preliminary thoughts for me:

1. Frank Nighbor - thought to be the clearcut best player in the early NHL. Centerpiece of a dynasty

2. Cyclone Taylor - perhaps the biggest star of them all. Definitely the man out west. Loses a bit compared to Nighbor in terms of team success, and longevity. Taylor played for awhile but his ultra-dominant period wasn't for quite as long, I don't think

Next is likely Newsy Lalonde/Georges Vezina/Sprague Cleghorn in some order. Clearcut best goalie, clearcut best defenseman, and Lalonde with his longevity and star power.

Then I have Joe Malone, who should probably be behind Lalonde, and Russell Bowie. Bowie I have as the best pre-WW1 player by a wide margin - he KILLS Phillips and Stuart in terms of longevity.

I prefer Gerard to Denneny and Benedict, because he was a bigger star and was considered by observers of the team as more important to the dynasty. I also look forward to a Benedict vs Lehman comparison when Benedict doesn't make it this round. Though to be honest, none of these guys really compete for the top 5.

I don't feel like getting into it too much just yet, but I feel Tommy Phillips has a pretty clear case over Hod Stuart for the 2nd best of the pre-WW1 players. The quick version is that Phillips was more proven against the best players in the world and contributed more to team success. Hod is the only one of these 12 who was not in my top 12

 

[BenchBrawl]

People in this thread shouldn't have to go hunting around the ATD board.

This is the definitive bio of Frank Nighbor from HOH, in my opinion, the most important single post ever made on hfboards relating to hockey history: ATD 2010 Bios

I would have linked it, but I can't access it.

 

[ResilientBeast]

1. Frank Nighbor - thought to be the clearcut best player in the early NHL. Centerpiece of a dynasty

I think we can probably challenge that, definitely doesn't seem "clear cut" on the contemporary opinions.

We have 5 senators up for voting already either they are going to be overrated because they all bask in the glow of Nighbor being this transformative talent or we need to consider how much of Nighbor's legacy is built upon team accomplishments and he had the most stacked teams of the era.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think we can probably challenge that, definitely doesn't seem "clear cut" on the contemporary opinions.

We have 5 senators up for voting already either they are going to be overrated because they all bask in the glow of Nighbor being this transformative talent or we need to consider how much of Nighbor's legacy is build upon team accomplishments and he had the most stacked teams of the era.

I said "the NHL," which intentionally doesn't include Taylor. But Nighbor over Lalonde and Malone was pretty clear cut, right?

 

[ResilientBeast]

It is absolutely clear cut. Note I said "the NHL," which intentionally doesn't include Taylor. But Nighbor over Lalonde and Malone was pretty clear cut, right?

My apologies I missed that.

But even then I'm willing to relitigate Lalonde vs Nighbor

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

We have 5 senators up for voting already either they are going to be overrated because they all bask in the glow of Nighbor being this transformative talent or we need to consider how much of Nighbor's legacy is built upon team accomplishments and he had the most stacked teams of the era.

Back to this part, I think counting Cleghorn as a "Senator" is kind of chintzy, as he wasn't there all that long.

But behind that, they WERE the most successful team of the era by a wide margin, the only team to win the Cup on enemy turf in the NHA/NHL vs PCHA days.

That said, if you want to say that Denneny and Benedict are (a little) overrated, I'm all on board.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Back to this part, I think counting Cleghorn as a "Senator" is kind of chintzy, as he wasn't there all that long.

But behind that, they WERE the most successful team of the era by a wide margin, the only team to win the Cup on enemy turf in the NHA/NHL vs PCHA days.

I agree it's a bit chintzy but those 2 cups are significant part of both Cleghorn and Nighbor's legacy.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Feel free to disregard, especially if it was already covered. But do you guys get the sense that each 10 years or 8 years or 5 years or 15 years or whatever unit really matters here...? Like, professional sports really took off after WWII, right? The 1950's and 1960's really modernized hockey, football, and basketball...but what was the difference between 1961 and 1973? Meh, probably not a lot in hockey...some? Sure. But materially different? Probably not, right?

I don't know how to ask this...but is there a sense that hockey was a little less organized, a little less professional, etc. for even Cyclone vs Nighbor...? And is it enough to be a tiebreaker or whatever...?

It's super tough without film, but, just wondering...ignore as needed, no hard feelings...

 

[rmartin65]

Feel free to disregard, especially if it was already covered. But do you guys get the sense that each 10 years or 8 years or 5 years or 15 years or whatever unit really matters here...? Like, professional sports really took off after WWII, right? The 1950's and 1960's really modernized hockey, football, and basketball...but what was the difference between 1961 and 1973? Meh, probably not a lot in hockey...some? Sure. But materially different? Probably not, right?

I don't know how to ask this...but is there a sense that hockey was a little less organized, a little less professional, etc. for even Cyclone vs Nighbor...? And is it enough to be a tiebreaker or whatever...?

It's super tough without film, but, just wondering...ignore as needed, no hard feelings...

This is an off-the-top-of-my-head type comment, but I'm not sure that the organization/professionalism changed all that much between (prime) Taylor and Nighbor. Hockey in the East had really consolidated by then, the major league had professionalized and the remaining amateurs either retired or were sequestered to the IPAHU (and there weren't very many notable players that fall into this category- Bowie being the big one off the top of my head).

I think the bigger potential tiebreaker would be the talent-pool argument.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Gerard certainly had the 2nd highest "star power" behind Nighbor on those teams. Denneny, despite his gaudy stats, was seen as semi-replaceable, while I've yet to see a case for Benedict that didn't rely heavily on team-oriented stats.

Goalies are hard to rank in any condition, but especially so without tape.
Vezina vs. Benedict, GAA finishes (only counting starting goalies)

Season	Vezina finish	Benedict finish
1910-11	1st	-
1911-12	1st	-
1912-13	2nd	*, technically finished first, but only played 10 of the 20 games. LeSueur still the Senators starting goalie
1913-14	2nd	-, only played 7 games, but tied with Vezina in GAA
1914-15	2nd	1st (first year as starter)
1915-16	2nd	1st
1916-17	2nd	1st
1917-18	1st	3rd
1918-19	2nd	1st
1919-20	3rd	1st
1920-21	3rd	1st
1921-22	2nd	1st
1922-23	2nd	1st
1923-24	1st	2nd
1924-25	1st	3rd
1925-26	-	3rd
1926-27	-	1st

Benedict leading the league in GAA a record 9 times, Vezina with 5.

However, Benedict played behind Nighbor from 1915-16 until retirement. So, how do we consider his stats in the context of playing behind the greatest defensive forward of the era? He did lead the league in 1914-15 before Nighbor arrived, but still had Gerard and Ross in front of him. He also had Cleghorn for a couple years. He consistently played behind an elite defensive team.

Vezina never had that level of support. Though I will point out that of the 3 best NHA/L offensive threats of the era, Vezina did not have to play against Lalonde and Malone. While Benedict did not have to play against Nighbor and Denneny.

I think these goalies stand as the clear two kings of pre-merger hockey. Benedict certainly has the statistical edge, but does so behind the best defensive team of the era.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Vezina never had that level of support. Though I will point out that of the 3 best NHA/L offensive threats of the era, Vezina did not have to play against Lalonde and Malone. While Benedict did not have to play against Nighbor and Denneny.

He absolutely had to play against Malone, Malone didn't join Montreal until 17/18

 

[jigglysquishy]

Then I have Joe Malone, who should probably be behind Lalonde, and Russell Bowie. Bowie I have as the best pre-WW1 player by a wide margin - he KILLS Phillips and Stuart in terms of longevity.

Malone vs Bowie is a great conversation I hope we get to have, even if we wait until Vote 2. Malone played in a deeper era, but Bowie blows him away in terms of separation from competition. I think both go before Denneny and Phillips, though I am keeping an open mind.

He absolutely had to play against Malone, Malone didn't join Montreal until 17/18

Good point. My miss.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Malone's offense is eye popping, but then you realize his two Stanley Cups with Quebec came after the PCHA broke off but before they were allowed to officially challenge for the cup he loses some luster for me

Not his fault the Bulldogs were Malone, Tommy Smith, Joe Hall and that's about it.