Value of: Top 4 Defensive RHD That Can Make a Good Breakout Pass to Edmonton

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DingDongCharlie

Registered User
Sep 12, 2010
11,599
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We talked about it in general terms A LOT on the HFOil board. Not many could believe that Holland traded for Keith KNOWING that Larsson was unlikely to stay or had already communicated he was leaving.

Right but there was lots of discussion on a potential 4 year extension at 3.9m I recall also. I heard Larsson once claimed decided to entertain an offer. Hard to say without a clear comment on the issue from either Holland or Larsson. Either way, I was sad to see Larsson go and that he had to deal with losing a parent as he did.
 
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bandwagonesque

I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
Mar 5, 2014
7,375
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Your attempt to create a false narrative seeking to throw shade on me will not work.
Every situation is different but they all depend on the merits.
In some isolated cases, a simple solution can work b'c the underlying problem is actually simple.
Howev, that is rare, if we are being honest.

More typically you have either
a situation which is inherently complicated at day 1, square 1
OR
a simple problem that can accept a simple solution, but it is in vacuum, and getting out of the vacuum requires it interfacing with other problems requiring their own solutions, which results in the need to create at least one scenario where all the problems can be solved using different [i.e., non duplicative] assets.

So sure, other than God Who is absolute, everyone/everything else is at least to some degree relative.
Hence there may reasonably be presumed to be an exception to every rule.
But what I said, as a rule, was correct.

As that relates here, to the board, rarely do our teams have so much depth, etc., that one or even two moves in a vacuum will solve all issues.
Usually, correcting one issue is at cost to something else, and at some point that piper gets paid.

peace out
If you think it's more reasonable for teams to make ten trades at a time instead of one, there's no point in petitioning us. You need to be speaking to NHL teams, which in over 100 years have never done anything remotely like that, and explaining it to them.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
28,310
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If you think it's more reasonable for teams to make ten trades at a time instead of one, there's no point in petitioning us. You need to be speaking to NHL teams, which in over 100 years have never done anything remotely like that, and explaining it to them.
I did not say they necessarily all HAVE TO BE at the same time, I said it is driven by the nature of the beast, by the situation.

I showed you all those trades AT ONCE b'c it was my responsibility to connect the dots sufficiently in pertinent fashion. That is an obligation each of us undertakes when he/she goes past musing to suggesting/advocating.

This thread is about D help to Oil
Some said prob was not D, it was G.
In a parallel thread saying the prob was need for G, the inverse was suggested.
Either way, whether you go for either or both as fixes EDM needs, my point was correct:
Oil do not have proper desirable assets/adequate cap space available to do 1-2 small, easy deals, so complicated, comprehensive scenario was necessary -- if someone wants to go there. If not, fine, I am not shoving anything down anybody's throat.

Just as to perspective, NY does not need to do Oil any favors moving 2 good prospects to Oil so it can get Gibson +.
It was an effort to think outside the box, touch all/enuf bases sufficiently. That's all.
 

Coffees

blackhawk down
Nov 12, 2021
8,275
7,089
Massachusetts
I did not say they necessarily all HAVE TO BE at the same time, I said it is driven by the nature of the beast, by the situation.

I showed you all those trades AT ONCE b'c it was my responsibility to connect the dots sufficiently in pertinent fashion. That is an obligation each of us undertakes when he/she goes past musing to suggesting/advocating.

This thread is about D help to Oil
Some said prob was not D, it was G.
In a parallel thread saying the prob was need for G, the inverse was suggested.
Either way, whether you go for either or both as fixes EDM needs, my point was correct:
Oil do not have proper desirable assets/adequate cap space available to do 1-2 small, easy deals, so complicated, comprehensive scenario was necessary -- if someone wants to go there. If not, fine, I am not shoving anything down anybody's throat.

Just as to perspective, NY does not need to do Oil any favors moving 2 good prospects to Oil so it can get Gibson +.
It was an effort to think outside the box, touch all/enuf bases sufficiently. That's all.
Sit this one out, Bern, we all know how you have misjudged defenders in the past…

No one’s arguing your knowledge for forwards or hockey in general, but sit this defenders one out
 

bandwagonesque

I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
Mar 5, 2014
7,375
5,729
I did not say they necessarily all HAVE TO BE at the same time, I said it is driven by the nature of the beast, by the situation.

I showed you all those trades AT ONCE b'c it was my responsibility to connect the dots sufficiently in pertinent fashion. That is an obligation each of us undertakes when he/she goes past musing to suggesting/advocating.

This thread is about D help to Oil
Some said prob was not D, it was G.
In a parallel thread saying the prob was need for G, the inverse was suggested.
Either way, whether you go for either or both as fixes EDM needs, my point was correct:
Oil do not have proper desirable assets/adequate cap space available to do 1-2 small, easy deals, so complicated, comprehensive scenario was necessary -- if someone wants to go there. If not, fine, I am not shoving anything down anybody's throat.

Just as to perspective, NY does not need to do Oil any favors moving 2 good prospects to Oil so it can get Gibson +.
It was an effort to think outside the box, touch all/enuf bases sufficiently. That's all.
In order to fix the Oilers' defense you will have to decipher a series of clues, each one more maddening than the last!

I presume, my dear Holmes, you are wondering where to begin. Behold, my greatest masterpiece! A trade for none other than ... (crushed by chandelier)
 

Petes2424

Registered User
Aug 4, 2005
8,399
3,054
After cleaning up some things for a game, where it looked like they were starting to “Buy-In” to the zone system, right back in the dumpster tonight.

It needs to be said though, McDavid has made the commitment. It’s not on him or the Cs, who in this system are imperative.

Nurse and Bouchard, are the main culprits.

Give it about another 5 games, but after that, if they’re still this bad, everything needs to be on the table.

If they have to scrap the system, because 2-3 of their core players won’t buy-in, this team will NEVER win a Cup with this core. So it’s real important they don’t scrap it.

Holland was with Detroit when they had the same problem in the mid 90s. They ended up having to trade some really good players who wouldn’t buy in, after Bowman changed systems. They had to bring in players who would. Sometimes guys who weren’t as good.

This is the 1994, 1995 Red Wings. The big issue is, it’s a cap world now. Every trade is a battle, but when you have players who refuse to buy-in, they basically need to go.. He’s gonna have to get creative. As for Bouchard? It’s usually easier to break younger players of their habits. Maybe a couple of scratches will work with him, but he too should be put on notice.

It’s a mess right now. The coaches need to make a big statement after tonight. Maybe they scratch Nurse next game. The message has to be sent.
 
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McJedi

Registered User
Apr 21, 2020
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Florida
Oilers in a bad spot today. Some obvious roster holes with little to horse trade with to fill them.

Holloway stat line for this season. Thru four games: 0-0-0 / -2 11 minutes of ice time. Broberg a healthy scratch. What does Edmonton have to offer to get a middle pair defender?

The answer... not much.
 
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Patagonia

Keep Whining
Jan 6, 2017
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AVs might need to clear salaries after resigning Toews and rise of Byram.

Maybe Manson with 3 years remaining?
 

Junohockeyfan

Registered User
Dec 16, 2018
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He's better than Chiarot. Are you offering a 1st?
Lets take a deep dive into that comparison:

Ben Chiarot was 30 when traded at TDL with an expiring contract (3.5M). He was coming off a recent cup tun where he played top pairing minutes and was a difference maker. Habs retained 50%.

Josh Manson is 32 and has a significant injury history that has impacted his effectiveness. The Avs overpaid him with a 4.5M contract that has 3 years remaining. The only way the Avs could get value in a trade is if they retain 50% of that albatross contract. Otherwise Manson is a capdump that will cost the Avs a significant sweetener to dump.

No one is taking that contract for free due to the term and decline in Manson’s play coupled with injury risks.
 
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calder candidate

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Feb 25, 2003
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David Savard from Mtl he is able to make a pass but more importantly he able to defend and play playoff hockey.
3.5M$ for one more season so it isn't a pure rental, not sure if Mtl want to retain since they only have one spot left and there might be a more valuable way to use it but they can take a contract back to make the cap work.
 

John Mandalorian

2022 Avs: The First Dance
Nov 29, 2018
11,504
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Lets take a deep dive into that comparison:

Ben Chiarot was 30 when traded at TDL with an expiring contract (3.5M). He was coming off a recent cup tun where he played top pairing minutes and was a difference maker. Habs retained 50%.

Josh Manson is 32 and has a significant injury history that has impacted his effectiveness. The Avs overpaid him with a 4.5M contract that has 3 years remaining. The only way the Avs could get value in a trade is if they retain 50% of that albatross contract. Otherwise Manson is a capdump that will cost the Avs a significant sweetener to dump.

No one is taking that contract for free due to the term and decline in Manson’s play coupled with injury risks.

Manson is still the better player when on the ice than Chiarot regardless of age. He brings the physicality you and several GMs seem to crave while also playing within a system/style many teams want to emulate. So he's well suited to mentor young players. He actually has a ring too.

He has a 12 team NTC that activates in June. So it cant happen until then and it also might mean the US teams are more likely.
 
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Junohockeyfan

Registered User
Dec 16, 2018
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Manson is still the better player when on the ice than Chiarot regardless of age. He brings the physicality you and several GMs seem to crave while also playing within a system/style many teams want to emulate. So he's well suited to mentor young players. He actually has a ring too.
He’s no better than what Chiarot was a couple years ago and his injuries and age are leading him to a natural decline. His contract is an issue.

Are the Avs willing to eat 50% of his contract to extract any value?

Also, Chiarot on his current contract is a capdump. No one will trade for Chairot just as no one will trade for Manson without aa similar dump going the other way or significant retention or a massive sweetener.
 
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John Mandalorian

2022 Avs: The First Dance
Nov 29, 2018
11,504
7,257
He’s no better than what Chiarot was a couple years ago and his injuries and age are leading him to a natural decline. His contract is an issue.

Are the Avs willing to eat 50% of his contract to extract any value?

Also, Chiarot on his current contract is a capdump. No one will trade for Chairot just as no one will trade for Manson without aa similar dump going the other way or significant retention or a massive sweetener.

Assuming they’re equal value or similar, the 50% only is relevant in returning a first. It’s not a guarantee that this is wha the Avs will be going for. There are teams that have room for him even now and certainly will in the offfseason. Apparently there might be some decent free agent options, so that might complicate matters. However, if the Avs aren’t asking for much (or anything), he could be a cheaper option for a team looking for a RD otherwise in free agency. His contract is from 2022 from a time of a restrictive cap. With the cap about to go up, free agents will be more expensive. There’s a good chance 4.5 suddenly doesn’t seem like so much. Erik Johnson is making 3.3 after all.
 

Junohockeyfan

Registered User
Dec 16, 2018
15,088
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Assuming they’re equal value or similar, the 50% only is relevant in returning a first. It’s not a guarantee that this is wha the Avs will be going for. There are teams that have room for him even now and certainly will in the offfseason. Apparently there might be some decent free agent options, so that might complicate matters. However, if the Avs aren’t asking for much (or anything), he could be a cheaper option for a team looking for a RD otherwise in free agency.
Teams with room for him will be developing their own players (e.g. Habs) at RHD. They won't be trading for an older, overpaid, declining, oft-injured dman unless they can extract a significant sweetener. Teams that are competing for a cup don't have capspace for Manson unless he is at 50% retention. Manson's 3 year term kills any potential of a retentionless deal. If he had an expiring contract, there is potential to trade him at the TDL. But he doesn't. He's a capdump.

Avs are stuck with Manson and will need to look to other avenues to open up capspace. e.g. Girard.
 

John Mandalorian

2022 Avs: The First Dance
Nov 29, 2018
11,504
7,257
Teams with room for him will be developing their own players (e.g. Habs) at RHD. They won't be trading for an older, overpaid, declining, oft-injured dman unless they can extract a significant sweetener. Teams that are competing for a cup don't have capspace for Manson unless he is at 50% retention. Manson's 3 year term kills any potential of a retentionless deal. If he had an expiring contract, there is potential to trade him at the TDL. But he doesn't. He's a capdump.

Avs are stuck with Manson and will need to look to other avenues to open up capspace. e.g. Girard.

It’s 2 year term when this will take place. It works with young D since he wouldn’t be relied on to take their minutes away.
 

Junohockeyfan

Registered User
Dec 16, 2018
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It’s 2 year term when this will take place. It works with young D since he wouldn’t be relied on to take their minutes away.
Habs had to retain on 1 year if Petry to dump him. Petry is a far superior dman to Manson. Avs will struggle to dump Manson.

Manson is a far worse cap dump due to his contract.
 
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bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
28,310
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Oilers in a bad spot today. Some obvious roster holes with little to horse trade with to fill them.

Holloway stat line for this season. Thru four games: 0-0-0 / -2 11 minutes of ice time. Broberg a healthy scratch. What does Edmonton have to offer to get a middle pair defender?

The answer... not much.
I have been saying this in quantity to NYR could make sense b'c it is a unique fit;
- NY deals Lindgren, Bro adds to compete w/Robertson + Scanlin
- Hol MIGHT be a complementary fast bookend RW for Kreider

- McLeod bottom 6 speed
- above is not enuf for LaF, so 1 prospect added

Bro + Hol are speculative gambles today b'c either Oil screwed up, or they were not that good to begin with.
Today, they are not gonna command high return

Potential trades:

1) RNH + Campbell

Orlov + TT from Canes

2. Evander Kane for Brett Peasce

3. Jack Campbell + Broberg + 2024 1st for Connor Murphy
I don't see other teams doing this
 
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