Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

[DannyGallivan]

Yeah, your absolutely correct here & earlier in thinking Hall a better RS performer than was Brodeur. Tested more often, with considerably more frequency & higher quality opportunities be it 3 on 1's or 2 on 1's or whatever. Chicago absolutely Run n' Gun, polar opposite to the Devils System Defence. Couple of other factors being that Chicago had a rougher travel schedule than most, Hall also had to face the likes of Hull & Mikita all winter long in Practices, the style he played absolutely beyond taxing physically so no question he was by the time the Playoffs rolled along not exactly running on a full tank.

Let's not forget the most amazing Glen Hall trivia (apart from his consecutive games thing, which to me is the most unbreakable record in all sports). He puked during virtually every game. All the time. For all those years. The teams would wait as he excused himself after a play (if he couldn't wait until between the periods), knowing full well what was going on. Then he'd be back like nothing happened.

 

[MXD]

I'm not dimishing the early eras either. I'm describing them as they were (and are).

 

[DannyGallivan]

As for your first point, I completely distance myself from any attempt to dismiss or diminish the early eras of hockey history

Not dismissing, just showing how DIFFERENT it was.
In fact, I've stated before that upon seeing old video footage from the 20's, I was amazed just how well they skated on skates that were super heavy and offered virtually no ankle support or proper fitting. Most people would look like three year-olds on those skates.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Not dismissing, just showing how DIFFERENT it was.
In fact, I've stated before that upon seeing old video footage from the 20's, I was amazed just how well they skated on skates that were super heavy and offered virtually no ankle support or proper fitting. Most people would look like three year-olds on those skates.

Fair enough.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Let's not forget the most amazing Glen Hall trivia (apart from his consecutive games thing, which to me is the most unbreakable record in all sports). He puked during virtually every game. All the time. For all those years. The teams would wait as he excused himself after a play (if he couldn't wait until between the periods), knowing full well what was going on. Then he'd be back like nothing happened.

"Virtually every game" certainly seems like exaggeration.

Q: Hockey lore says you were known for throwing up before games. Where did that start and did it happen before every game?
Hall: In the latter years, it was true. I got to feeling I wasn’t giving everything I had if I didn’t go through it. I also felt I played better. I put pressure on myself. They talk about handling pressure; well, pressure is the greatest thing there is. It forces you to play at a higher level. I had set a standard and didn’t want to play below that standard. I think my last year of junior I did it a couple of times. I felt if I wasn’t wired, I wasn’t playing well. I’d get up in the morning and I couldn’t wait for game time.

Source: Q&A with Mr. Goalie, Glenn Hall: The man threw up all the time

 

[DannyGallivan]

One of the most shocking hockey pictures ever. Looks like he could have starred in an old horror picture. I still, to this day, have no idea how hockey players (goalies especially) played without helmets and masks for so long and how more players didn't lose eyes, careers, or even lives.

Glen Hall stated that he used to shave before games to make it easier for the team doctors to apply the stitches when necessary.

 

[DannyGallivan]

"Virtually every game" certainly seems like exaggeration.



Source: Q&A with Mr. Goalie, Glenn Hall: The man threw up all the time

In the latter years, it was true (as per the article that I was just about to copy and paste before I noticed that you did likewise).

 

[The Macho King]

Not dismissing, just showing how DIFFERENT it was.
In fact, I've stated before that upon seeing old video footage from the 20's, I was amazed just how well they skated on skates that were super heavy and offered virtually no ankle support or proper fitting. Most people would look like three year-olds on those skates.

I'm not saying it's you, or even MXD - there are valid questions to competition quality, stats, and how team style affected performance with Nighbor. But I do think that people aren't giving enough respect to pre-consolidation hockey. And I still maintain that looking at the rosters in that era (factoring 60 minute shifts instead of 3 and 4 line hockey), the talent level does not seem unusual. It's not the 50s or early 90s, but I dont think its expansion era or ww2 era thin either. I think it coincides closely with post-lockout talent, and I think Nighbor should be judged accordingly.

 

[Killion]

Something we often forget, especially back then. I doubt that Hull took it that easy on Hall. After all, he and Mikita were trying to perfect their banana-blade shots, which almost always went high.

... yeah, and everyone else copying them & clocking them even wilder. From the rest of the Blackhawks to every other team in the NHL, from the NHL down through the Minors into Amateur. No one let up in Practices, no. If anything as a Goalie that a scarier situation then game-time as guys would "try new things", bigger curves, bigger wind-up, wanna practice roofing their Slapper from the Slot, one-timer pass from the corner.... "Really? GTFO. Go find a piece of plywood Killer, Im outta here"..... Hall famously "withholding services" in Contract disputes in order to avoid facing all those shots. Every year "painting the barn". Holding out as long as he could. Admitted it years later. Mr.Goalie. Quite the sense of Hee Haw.... his wife... refused to cook meals before games for him because, hey, "if your just gunna throw it up why bother"?.... She considered it an insult to her cooking until he told her why he regularly threw up before & during games.

 

[Killion]

Let's not forget the most amazing Glen Hall trivia (apart from his consecutive games thing, which to me is the most unbreakable record in all sports). He puked during virtually every game. All the time. For all those years. The teams would wait as he excused himself after a play (if he couldn't wait until between the periods), knowing full well what was going on. Then he'd be back like nothing happened.

..... he said he did this as it somehow "relaxed him", like he was up-chucking a case of bad-nerves and not the Montreal Smoked Meat Sammich he'd had at Schwartzs' earlier for lunch or whatever..... Mmk..... Whatever.... Liked it so much you just had to see it again eh Glenn?

 

[Captain Bowie]

..... he said he did this as it somehow "relaxed him", like he was up-chucking a case of bad-nerves and not the Clubhouse he'd had earlier for lunch or whatever..... Mmk..... Whatever.

Or maybe he just had an eating disorder...

 

[The Macho King]

..... he said he did this as it somehow "relaxed him", like he was up-chucking a case of bad-nerves and not the Clubhouse he'd had earlier for lunch or whatever..... Mmk..... Whatever.

When I played poker I used to throw up right before big tournaments. It actually helped.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Or maybe he just had an eating disorder...

Goaltending actually seems like the position most likely to give rise to OCD type of stuff.

 

[Killion]

When I played poker I used to throw up right before big tournaments. It actually helped.

Wow. Dealer, opponents didnt mind seeing you blowing chunks through your nose all over the green baize or I guess maybe it just blended in?.... How could you see your cards through the dilated pupils and blurred vision?... Oh well, some good scotch, cigarette, good to go.... card please... Ever wonder why Hall was so late in donning a mask? Would you given your shared propensities with Mr. Goalie? Strapped in like that could prove fatal.

 

[The Macho King]

Wow. Dealer, opponents didnt mind seeing you blowing chunks through your nose all over the green baize or I guess maybe it just blended in?.... How could you see your cards through the dilated pupils and moisture?... Oh well, some good scotch, cigarette, good to go.... card please...

I actually started bringing a toothbrush whenever I went to the WSOP so my breath wouldn't smell too bad at the table. I did do it in the bathroom though and not at the table.

 

[Killion]

I actually started bringing a toothbrush whenever I went to the WSOP so my breath wouldn't smell too bad at the table. I did do it in the bathroom though and not at the table.

Yeah, I kinda figured MM. ... and sure, not really all that unusual in sports, theater, music amongst players/actors/musicians.

 

[wetcoast]

That sounds like a quota thing. I guess both Lafleur and Nighbor need to go in this round.
As far as Keon and the Leafs go, well, somebody among the dynasty leaders need to go in last.

Nobody needs to go in because they were on a dynasty or their "era" isn't represented yet.

It's one of the weaker arguements that one can make for either player as there are stronger arguements to be had for them.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Let's not forget that Brodeur played 10 consecutive seasons of 70+ games himself, and 12 times total. Hall's streak included 7 straight seasons of exactly 70 games.

Hall played 490 games in those 7 years, next closest guy played 428.

In Brodeur's 10 year stretch he played 733 games, next closest played 640.

They "outplayed" their contemporaries by pretty much the exact same margin, about 14% more games than the next highest guy.

And during the same ranges, Brodeur played the most playoff games by a significant margin (121 to 97), while Hall played fewer playoff games than Plante (61 to 49).

If you ask me, Broduer games played is about as impressive as Hall's.

I agree. There isn't much of a gap at all IMHO.

I've always found Brodeur was shit on too much by the stat junkies, which is funny because his numbers are hardly bad or even average, especially when you look at how much he was playing and invest time into going beyond raw data which is greatly misleading, especially for goalies.

Brodeur was the post expansion version of Hall, and Marty simply held up and performed better on the whole in the postseason, despite handling a ridiculous workload himself.

Plus I find Brodeur's puck handling and movement skills to be highly underrated and appreciated. When you force other teams to dump and chase because you're clogging up neutral ice you damn well better have a goalie that can handle the puck to be successful and, at least in the modern era, nobody was better IMO than Brodeur.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Nobody needs to go in because they were on a dynasty or their "era" isn't represented yet.

It's one of the weaker arguements that one can make for either player as there are stronger arguements to be had for them.

Just my 2 cents.

Speaking for myself, I was being sarcastic. I never bought the quota thing either.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I agree. There isn't much of a gap at all IMHO.

I've always found Brodeur was **** on too much by the stat junkies, which is funny because his numbers are hardly bad or even average, especially when you look at how much he was playing and invest time into going beyond raw data which is greatly misleading, especially for goalies.

Brodeur was the post expansion version of Hall, and Marty simply held up and performed better on the whole in the postseason, despite handling a ridiculous workload himself.

Plus I find Brodeur's puck handling and movement skills to be highly underrated and appreciated. When you force other teams to dump and chase because you're clogging up neutral ice you damn well better have a goalie that can handle the puck to be successful and, at least in the modern era, nobody was better IMO than Brodeur.

Well said. Despite having Sawchuk and Hall slightly ahead on my initial list, I've looked a little closer at Brodeur and will have him in my top 5 this round.

 

[Killion]

Plus I find Brodeur's puck handling and movement skills to be highly underrated and appreciated. When you force other teams to dump and chase because you're clogging up neutral ice you damn well better have a goalie that can handle the puck to be successful and, at least in the modern era, nobody was better IMO than Brodeur.

Yeah. He was a real throwback in many ways. Always admired him, the Devils players & organization. Built from the crease out. Goaltending & Defence the drivers. Up front some wonderful players as well of course. But ya, Brodeur I think seriously underrated by many in comparison to his more sensationalist contemporaries. He went about his business quietly, clinically. Stopped **** before it happened, always on his mark. One of the Best All Time in my Book. Take him over Hasek or Roy in a heartbeat. Wouldnt think twice.

 

[The Macho King]

Speaking for myself, I was being sarcastic. I never bought the quota thing either.

It's not a quota, but I do think we should be vigilant in making sure that there isn't a bias for/against certain eras without good reason. If we had the best player in a certain era *not* represented in the vote, we better have a good reason as to why.

Considering there are numerous spectacular top 100 worthy players during Nighbor's era, yet Nighbor was still by a good bit considered the best of the bunch, that should be something that we factor in. That doesn't mean he goes this vote, but it does mean we better come up with some damn good reasons to leave him out.

 

[Killion]

Well said. Despite having Sawchuk and Hall slightly ahead on my initial list, I've looked a little closer at Brodeur and will have him in my top 5 this round.

Good job Art.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yeah. He was a real throwback in many ways. Always admired him, the Devils players & organization. Built from the crease out. Goaltending & Defence the drivers. Up front some wonderful players as well of course. But ya, Brodeur I think seriously underrated by many in comparison to his more sensationalist contemporaries. He went about his business quietly, clinically. Stopped **** before it happened, always on his mark. One of the Best All Time in my Book. Take him over Hasek or Roy in a heartbeat. Wouldnt think twice.

Not sure about him over Roy (personal preference) but you could do a lot worse than Marty B backstopping your team for 2 decades. As you said. Ho-hum guy. Showed up with his lunch pail, worked a lot more than others, and was better than most everyone, for a long, long time.

The older I got and the more I understood the nuances of the game the more I appreciated how big an impact Broduer had on those trap style teams. Without him, it wouldn't have worked. And even after the league went away from the clutch and grab and ultra low scoring affairs, MB still showed very well as a player which debunks the notion he was just a by-product of the defensive minded NJ team and league in general. Brodeur, IMO, was the NJ Devils in the 90's and early-mid 2000's.

 

[Theokritos]

How do you erase tables?

Here's the simplest tutorial I am aware of:

I hope you're into vector algebra.