Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

[Canadiens1958]

I'm not sure if this means anything to anyone, but during Hall's career with the Hawks, he was a much better goalie at home then on the road.
Glenn Hall Stats and News

Brodeur on the other hand, had several seasons in which he was much better on the road then at home.
Martin Brodeur Stats and News

Sawchuk was a goalie who played better at home, but wasn't too bad on the road either.

Smaller Chicago Stadium rink slowed down the opposition.

 

[The Macho King]

I'm not sure how relevant this is right now, but of course WWI weakened hockey - unlike WW2, many players actually saw combat duty, and some even died.

And someone (you?) posted that awesome article about the flu that likely had a significant impact as well, even if it wasn't as long-term.

 

[Canadiens1958]

That would mean that it is too early to vote in Nighbor or we vastly underrated those other three players.

Other three and a few others are vastly underrated.

 

[ImporterExporter]

How do you erase tables?

I just drag and highligh the ones I want removed and hit delete/backspace. It's not perfect as it leaves one row but I've not found a better option for editing. If I'm missing an easy answer someone please feel free to chime in haha!

 

[Canadiens1958]

Speaking of Terry Sawchuk : Do we have reasons to believe that his SV% numbers do not depict an accurate picture of his skillset and his impact, like we can very reasonably surmise with Martin Brodeur?

Every picture tells the Sawchuk story:

 

[ImporterExporter]

Brodeur seems like the "Lidstrom" of goalies. His numbers and accomplishments suggest that he should be ranked higher than he is. And yet...

To be honest it's probably a good cross position comparison. I think around this point is where Broduer truly belongs. He's got Glenn Hall's longevity (with surprising peak numbers) but considerably better postseason credentials. And Marty also has multiple elite international tournaments to his name, but it's not entirely fair to compare that to guys who didn't have the chance to routinely compete on the world stage. Still, it's a feather for Brodeur in the grand scheme.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Every picture tells the Sawchuk story:View attachment 158833

One of the most shocking hockey pictures ever. Looks like he could have starred in an old horror picture. I still, to this day, have no idea how hockey players (goalies especially) played without helmets and masks for so long and how more players didn't lose eyes, careers, or even lives.

 

[Canadiens1958]

One of the most shocking hockey pictures ever. Looks like he could have starred in an old horror picture. I still, to this day, have no idea how hockey players (goalies especially) played without helmets and masks for so long and how more players ndidn't lose eyes, careers, or even lives.

A few did lose an eye - Baz Bastien . Do not have time for an extensive list.

 

[Killion]

A few did lose an eye - Baz Bastien . Do not have time for an extensive list.

1921. Kitchener Greenshirts. RD Frank "Snoozer" Trushinski. Fractured his skull in a game against the Toronto Granites then about a year later lost one of his eyes..... if it wasnt for bad luck poor old Snoozy there wouldnt have had any luck at all. The NHL creating By-law 12:6.... aka "The Trushinski Bylaw". First applied by the League in 1939 when 25yr old LW for the Leafs lost his left eye in a game against Chicago..... Challenged by Greg Neeld in 75..... Drafted by the WHA & NHL (Buffalo).... "Neeld Shield"....

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

To be honest it's probably a good cross position comparison. I think around this point is where Broduer truly belongs. He's got Glenn Hall's longevity (with surprising peak numbers) but considerably better postseason credentials. And Marty also has multiple elite international tournaments to his name, but it's not entirely fair to compare that to guys who didn't have the chance to routinely compete on the world stage. Still, it's a feather for Brodeur in the grand scheme.

Glenn Hall

While Brodeur has a better playoff record than Hall, I've come around to believing that Hall had a better regular season career, at least by a little bit.

First off, Hall was special enough to shatter the mold that existed for 4 decades that the Vezina winner (equivalent to the modern Jennings) always was voted the 1st Team All-Star (so long as the Vezina winner was the clear cut starter on his team).

Second off, Hall's consistency in awards recognition is unmatched, even by Brodeur. 7 1st Team All Stars, 4 2nd Team All Stars for 11 official All Star nods in 14 years is a little better than Brodeur, even if you remove all Europeans who competed against Brodeur. Brodeur had a bit of a lull in his regular season performances from 1998-2002 or so.

Third off, Hall stood out in Hart voting vs other goalies of his era more than Brodeur did (though Brodeur's Hart record is quite strong too).

Fourth off, while Brodeur's durability is unmatched by any modern goalie, Glenn Hall is the one who played 502 consecutive games behind a team that often "left him out to dry."

I think that if you highly value durability and reliability in a goalie, there is an argument that Hall, not Hasek has the most regular season value among goalies all-time.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Every picture tells the Sawchuk story:View attachment 158833

Actually, a make-up artist did up Sawchuk in this photo. This was not real. However, I believe (not totally sure, but believe) that the make-up artist simply went over all of Sawchuk's existing scars to make them look fresh and raw. That could be true.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I'm not sure how relevant this is right now, but of course WWI weakened hockey - unlike WW2, many players actually saw combat duty, and some even died.

But unlike WWII, we do not have a bunch of star players leaving the game to serve in the army for years at a time. 1916-17 was a bit of a mess. A team made up of players who had enlisted played the first half of the year before being shipped out. 1917-18 had some players unavailable, including Nighbor who was not available for half the schedule due to army commitments. I know Punch Broadbent missed a couple seasons overseas. But we don't seem to have a situation to the extreme of WWII, where we saw relative nobodies like Herb Cain and Lorne Carr suddenly setting scoring records in their 30s.

 

[DannyGallivan]

A possible weakness of Nighbor was that he appeared to struggle when the ice was slushy.This happened periodically in that era, so not handling it well should be considered a weakness, like a Tennis player who struggle in the wind.OTOH, it's not certain he was weak there; we'd need a bigger sample size.

Even acknowledging this takes this era further away from what we're used to calling "hockey". And another thing, who wouldn't play poorer on slushy ice? It probably hurt the better skater the most, making them easier to play against if one wasn't so fleet of foot.

 

[sr edler]

Speaking of stitches (regarding Sawchuk) I always thought this one was funny as it points out the place (in the face) and the perpetrator.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Speaking of stitches (regarding Sawchuk) I always thought this one was funny as it points out the place (in the face) and the perpetrator.

Now that's the kind of infographic a hockey fan may find interesting.
...an infographic before their was a word for infographics.

 

[ImporterExporter]

While Brodeur has a better playoff record than Hall, I've come around to believing that Hall had a better regular season career, at least by a little bit.

First off, Hall was special enough to shatter the mold that existed for 4 decades that the Vezina winner (equivalent to the modern Jennings) always was voted the 1st Team All-Star.

Second off, Hall's consistency in awards recognition is unmatched, even by Brodeur. 7 1st Team All Stars, 4 2nd Team All Stars for 11 official All Star nods in 14 years is a little better than Brodeur, even if you remove all Europeans who competed against Brodeur. Brodeur had a bit of a lull in his regular season performances from 1998-2002 or so.

Third off, Hall stood out in Hart voting vs other goalies of his era more than Brodeur did (though Brodeur's Hart record is quite strong too).

Fourth off, while Brodeur's durability is unmatched by any modern goalie, Glenn Hall is the one who played 502 consecutive games behind a team that often "left him out to dry."

I think that if you highly value durability and reliability in a goalie, there is an argument that Hall, not Hasek has the most regular season value among goalies all-time.

Oh i agree that Hall has the better regular season resume and better durability compared to Brodeur. No question. 502 consecutive starts is one of, if not the most insane record in hockey.

I just think the gap as far as regular season goes is smaller than the playoffs. Hall's drop in play from one phase of the season to the next is pretty telling. I wonder, ironically if him playing every night was a big factor.

 

[ImporterExporter]

A few did lose an eye - Baz Bastien . Do not have time for an extensive list.

Absolutely. I am still amazed that over thousands of games more weren't seriously injured in the grand scheme.

Those men had some big damn balls.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Oh i agree that Hall has the better regular season resume and better durability compared to Brodeur. No question. 502 consecutive starts is one of, if not the most insane record in hockey.

I just think the gap as far as regular season goes is smaller than the playoffs. Hall's drop in play from one phase of the season to the next is pretty telling. I wonder, ironically if him playing every night was a big factor.

I think it's very likely that playing all those games in the regular season affected Hall in the playoffs.

When Bobby Hull was being discussed, I posted my big "why did the Black Hawks lose so much in the playoffs" post with Sports Illustrated articles, and one of the factors discussed was that the Black Hawks gave their stars tons of ice time in the regular season, which may have burned them out for the playoffs. I would not at all be surprised if Hall "suffered" the same fate as the rest of the Black Hawks stars - a slightly inflated regular season record due to all the ice time, combined with at least a little bit of fatigue setting in by the playoffs.

It should be noted that the Black Hawks were a very top-heavy team, so it is natural that they depended on their stars so much.

 

[wetcoast]

We did have that little information on him 10 years ago.
I mean, the information existed, it just wasn't as easily accessible.

Fair enough, I wasn't around and just looked at the ranking.

That being said much like your constranantion of putting AO in before Makarov there are probably a good half dozen centers who might make the same claim over Nighbor.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Oh i agree that Hall has the better regular season resume and better durability compared to Brodeur. No question. 502 consecutive starts is one of, if not the most insane record in hockey.

I just think the gap as far as regular season goes is smaller than the playoffs. Hall's drop in play from one phase of the season to the next is pretty telling. I wonder, ironically if him playing every night was a big factor.

Let's not forget that Brodeur played 10 consecutive seasons of 70+ games himself, and 12 times total. Hall's streak included 7 straight seasons of exactly 70 games.

Hall played 490 games in those 7 years, next closest guy played 428.

In Brodeur's 10 year stretch he played 733 games, next closest played 640.

They "outplayed" their contemporaries by pretty much the exact same margin, about 14% more games than the next highest guy.

And during the same ranges, Brodeur played the most playoff games by a significant margin (121 to 97), while Hall played fewer playoff games than Plante (61 to 49).

If you ask me, Broduer games played is about as impressive as Hall's.

 

[wetcoast]

He was not the same player after the accident.

Any serious injury brings short and long term effects. With Fetisov the details of his car accident injuries were never released.

Still his production numbers didn't really falter for several years and even if they did we exactly what kind of consideration are you suggesting?

As far as I know we are evaluating player by what they did or are you using other considerations?

 

[wetcoast]

Boxscores of NHL games back to 1917-18 is a 21st century data bank and they are far from perfect.

Well that's great, I just think that press clippings and praise from coach Green would face similar analysis.

Like I've stated there is a clear gap and certainty between Messier and Mikita and a good half dozen centers not listed yet.

 

[Killion]

I think it's very likely that playing all those games in the regular season affected Hall in the playoffs.

When Bobby Hull was being discussed, I posted my big "why did the Black Hawks lose so much in the playoffs" post with Sports Illustrated articles, and one of the factors discussed was that the Black Hawks gave their stars tons of ice time in the regular season, which may have burned them out for the playoffs. I would not at all be surprised if Hall "suffered" the same fate as the rest of the Black Hawks stars - a slightly inflated regular season record due to all the ice time, combined with at least a little bit of fatigue setting in by the playoffs.

It should be noted that the Black Hawks were a very top-heavy team, so it is natural that they depended on their stars so much.

Yeah, your absolutely correct here & earlier in thinking Hall a better RS performer than was Brodeur. Tested more often, with considerably more frequency & higher quality opportunities be it 3 on 1's or 2 on 1's or whatever. Chicago absolutely Run n' Gun, polar opposite to the Devils System Defence. Couple of other factors being that Chicago had a rougher travel schedule than most, Hall also had to face the likes of Hull & Mikita all winter long in Practices, the style he played absolutely beyond taxing physically so no question he was by the time the Playoffs rolled along not exactly running on a full tank.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Hall also had to face the likes of Hull & Mikita all winter long in Practices,

Something we often forget, especially back then. I doubt that Hull took it that easy on Hall. After all, he and Mikita were trying to perfect their banana-blade shots, which almost always went high.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Even acknowledging this takes this era further away from what we're used to calling "hockey". And another thing, who wouldn't play poorer on slushy ice? It probably hurt the better skater the most, making them easier to play against if one wasn't so fleet of foot.

George Boucher seemed to have done well on slushy ice (or ice in poor condition) due to his stickhandling prowess.The sample size is very small however.

As for your first point, I completely distance myself from any attempt to dismiss or diminish the early eras of hockey history.