Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

[BenchBrawl]

I don't put too much value on statistics from the 1920s.Often the game reports seemed completely independent from the boxscore; as if the boxscore was not even from the same game.Such was the nature of the game.

Is it because people back then didn't realize the value of offense? Or is it because we don't understand the value of unquantified play in that era?

According to coach Pete Green, other teams tried to imitate Ottawa's system, but failed because they didn't have a Nighbor.

 

[The Macho King]

I'm fine with the idea that Clarke gets a "plus" from people for achieving what he did with a roster largely devoid of any other players likely to appear on this list. I gave Bourque extra credit for that very thing.

But I don't see what makes Nighbor any different from any other dynasty player who benefited from great teammates. There were times when Jean Beliveau or Gordie Howe might have had four of the best six players in the league on their teams as well, or close to it. It is also telling that Nighbor was lauded as the best player on that team full of other Hall of Famers.

This was exactly my point. We have 4 of the 50s Habs on the list already, and only two of their contemporaries on other squads so far (Howe and Kelly, and Kelly at least was probably post-peak if not prime -also worth noting they were key members of *another* dynasty).

The more I think about it, the more Nighbor seems like #1 in this round to me. Unless you're going to disrespect old time hockey (AND YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO DO THAT WOULD YOU!), I think the best player in the league(s) on the first dynasty of professional hockey (as opposed to it being more of an amateur thing pre-WW1, but I will allow myself to be corrected if I'm wrong on that point) is a good and just vote this round.

 

[MXD]

But I don't see what makes Nighbor any different from any other dynasty player who benefited from great teammates. There were times when Jean Beliveau or Gordie Howe might have had four of the best six players in the league on their teams as well, or close to it. It is also telling that Nighbor was lauded as the best player on that team full of other Hall of Famers.

The big difference here would be that :
- Hockey as a whole was "deeper" during Beliveau and Howe's time
- None of Beliveau, Howe or their linemates were expected to spend 60 minutes on the ice.

(I know that Nighbor was still a 60-mins player after regular line changes became a thing; that is absolutely a positive, and not what I'm talking about here)

 

[BenchBrawl]

Depth is always what sets apart dynasties, though. 70s Habs, 80s Isles, hell - even the 50s Habs that is their defining characteristic versus the rest of the league. The *lack* of depth is probably why the BHs only walked out of the 60s with one championship.

I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but saying "dynasty team was way deeper than the other teams in the league" is so close to axiomatic I don't know if it actually says anything.

One thing that does seem universal though is that Nighbor was considered the best player on those dynasty teams, and with the exception of the 70s Habs (and maybe the 60s Leafs if you don't want to count Kelly), every other dynasty has had their best player represented so far.

The 40s Toronto Maple Leafs too.

 

[DannyGallivan]

The more I think about it, the more Nighbor seems like #1 in this round to me. Unless you're going to disrespect old time hockey (AND YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO DO THAT WOULD YOU!), I think the best player in the league(s) on the first dynasty of professional hockey (as opposed to it being more of an amateur thing pre-WW1, but I will allow myself to be corrected if I'm wrong on that point) is a good and just vote this round.

Now, now...don't be manipulative. Gentle persuasion only.

 

[The Macho King]

The big difference here would be that :
- Hockey as a whole was "deeper" during Beliveau and Howe's time
- None of Beliveau, Howe or their linemates were expected to spend 60 minutes on the ice.

(I know that Nighbor was still a 60-mins player after regular line changes became a thing; that is absolutely a positive, and not what I'm talking about here)

I think I have issues with both of those points, just as a conceptual point for making the list. The players played in the situation they were in. We're not airlifting Nighbor and asking him to suit up for the 50s Red Wings here. The rules/strategies of the day (be it 60 minute shifts, no forward pass, icing, whatever) just were what they were. Relative talent - that's a little tougher but I still maintain that if we're not holding it against Lafleur we shouldn't hold it against Nighbor, and even then, we have players from less talented eras that are represented because they still were the best in the world during that time (Lidstrom in a desert for Dmen, Potvin and Orr in the 70s, etc.).

I don't know if you're presenting a case or just mentioning what the hold up is for you - if it's the latter there's no issue but if it's the former, my response is Nighbor was still the best in the world on a team that's likely to have 1 or 2 names added to this list, and in an era that's likely to produce 3-5 more at minimum. I respect that relevant greatness.

 

[The Macho King]

The 40s Toronto Maple Leafs too.

It's funny you bring that one up (I forgot it) because that *is* one dynasty I severely discount because of the state of the league at the time.

 

[DannyGallivan]

One thing that does seem universal though is that Nighbor was considered the best player on those dynasty teams, and with the exception of the 70s Habs (and maybe the 60s Leafs if you don't want to count Kelly), every other dynasty has had their best player represented so far.

That sounds like a quota thing. I guess both Lafleur and Nighbor need to go in this round.
As far as Keon and the Leafs go, well, somebody among the dynasty leaders need to go in last.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Ted Kennedy, Dave Keon and Henri Richard would be players interesting to compare Frank Nighbor with.

 

[MXD]

From, let's say, 1919-20 to 1924-25, who was the 2nd best player in the NHL?

(I think it's very safe to say that Nighbor was NOT the best player in the NHL for the first two seasons)

 

[DannyGallivan]

Ted Kennedy, Dave Keon and Henri Richard would be players interesting to compare Frank Nighbor with.

That would mean that it is too early to vote in Nighbor or we vastly underrated those other three players.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

It wasn't just Denneny - there were times when Nighbor was outscored by HHOF defensemen on the team. Granted, Ottawa at times seemed to play a weird system where the defensemen rushed the play more than Nighbor did.

This is true, although Nighbor was starting to get older by the time Boucher or Clancy were outscoring him.

Nighbor was his team's leading scorer in 1913, 1916, 1917, 1919, and 1920. In 1915 he was 3rd behind Mickey Mackay and Cyclone Taylor (both forwards). In 1918 he missed half the season, but only Denneny had a better points-per-game. In 1921 he was 2nd behind Denneny. 1914 he only played half the season.

So it wasn't until 1922, his tenth major professional season, that a defenseman on his team actually outscored him in a season where he didn't miss time. Boucher consistently had a few more points than Nighbor during the 1922-25 seasons. Nighbor was back to 2nd behind Denneny in 1926, well ahead of Boucher and Clancy. This does suggest that team strategy may have influenced these scoring placements. Pete Green was replaced as coach for the 1926 season, and suddenly Nighbor was much more prominent offensively again.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Martin Brodeur:

I have a ton of respect for what Martin Brodeur accomplished in his long and illustrious career. I've felt the boards often underrated Brodeur because of the era, teams he played on, and more importantly the defensive structure of those teams. While those were certainly all factors to one degree or another, I think it is quite disrespectful to Brodeur on the whole.

@pappyline since he had asked about Brodeur yesterday. Didn't want him to miss my review.


Consider some of the insane numbers:

-691 wins. Most all time. Next closest? Patrick Roy who has 140 fewer. 3rd place is more than 200 wins behind.

-125 shutouts which shattered what many thought was an unbreakable record of 103 by Terry Sawchuk.

People try and use his games played (both single season and career) as some sort of negative. I have a completely different view. The fact that Broduer was so durable for as long as he was, is remarkable.

-He played 70 or more games IN A SINGLE SEASON 12 times! Patrick Roy did that exactly 0 times. Dominik Hasek did that ONCE. To have that kind of workload and still produce good to great numbers consistently is amazing to me. He was shouldered with a huge amount of work, year in and year out, and didn't waver much.

-He won 4 Vezina's. 2 during the end of the lower scoring dead puck era, and 2 directly after the lockout when scoring jumped considerably. Look at his Vezina win in 2006-07. The only goalie to face more shots was Miikka Kiprusoff and Brodeur had the best SV% of any goalie with at least 50 starts. He also had 12 shutouts, 4 more than Hasek. Kind of debunks the notion he couldn't put up excellent numbers while facing high volume doesn't it?

-Besides his 4 Vezina wins, he was a finalist another 5 times.

-He was top 5 in Hart voting 7 times.

-He was a 7 time post season all star, which is one more than Roy.

-Brodeur was spectacular at the 2002 Olympic games, where he helped Canada win gold.

-Was again amazing in 2004 at the World Cup of Hockey, where he allowed only 5 goals in 5 games, posting a .951 SV%.


Here's a look at some advanced studies:


TABLE 1 - CAREER SAVE PERCENTAGE (1956-2018)

Player	Min	SA	Saves	Sv%
Ken Dryden*	24,105	11,301	10,559	93.4%
Dominik Hasek*	44,465	22,090	20,434	92.5%
Tony Esposito*	54,387	27,782	25,613	92.2%
Patrick Roy*	62,369	30,475	28,036	92.0%
Bernie Parent*	37,214	18,100	16,650	92.0%
Johnny Bower*	31,983	16,202	14,885	91.9%
Billy Smith*	39,460	19,617	17,988	91.7%
Glenn Resch	33,023	16,442	15,066	91.6%
Jacques Plante*	51,842	24,846	22,758	91.6%
Tim Thomas	24,448	13,037	11,932	91.5%
Roberto Luongo	58,379	31,101	28,445	91.5%
Pete Peeters	28,397	12,737	11,644	91.4%
Tuukka Rask	27,263	13,228	12,093	91.4%
Henrik Lundqvist	48,956	24,127	22,040	91.3%
Glenn Hall*	61,347	29,793	27,213	91.3%
Don Edwards	26,797	13,100	11,965	91.3%
Tomas Vokoun	40,424	21,541	19,670	91.3%
John Vanbiesbrouck	52,351	26,207	23,927	91.3%
Sergei Bobrovsky	24,386	12,428	11,338	91.2%
Dan Bouchard	38,978	19,112	17,435	91.2%
Guy Hebert	29,289	15,905	14,508	91.2%
Cory Schneider	22,421	11,091	10,115	91.2%
Reggie Lemelin	28,584	14,100	12,858	91.2%
Mike Palmateer	20,586	10,904	9,943	91.2%
Ed Belfour*	57,444	26,554	24,203	91.1%
Kelly Hrudey	39,839	21,428	19,530	91.1%
Doug Favell	21,789	11,767	10,722	91.1%
Denis Herron	26,221	14,567	13,271	91.1%
Andy Moog	41,852	20,260	18,457	91.1%
Braden Holtby	22,158	11,180	10,185	91.1%
Daren Puppa	25,373	12,592	11,471	91.1%
Gump Worsley*	49,640	26,383	24,024	91.1%
Curtis Joseph	55,370	28,577	26,022	91.1%
Corey Crawford	24,814	12,122	11,038	91.1%
Glen Hanlon	26,624	13,717	12,490	91.1%
Martin Brodeur*	77,173	34,261	31,192	91.0%
Terry Sawchuk*	42,551	20,631	18,609	90.2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This table lists all 117 goalies who have faced at least 20,000 (adjusted) shots from 1955-56 to present. That's the equivalent of around 330 games.

-Brodeur's save percentage is pretty solid, just 0.3 points below up for vote Hall, who i think is a slightly better regular season goalie, but as we go into more studies, will show that gap isn't all that big. Also, Brodeur suffers a little bit here because his minutes and shots faced are much higher than any other goalie all time. Generally the longer a career and more volume you face, especially as one ages, the lower your save percentage will end up being. Sawchuk looks poor here but unfortunately we only have save% data going back to 1956 at this point so that erases most of Terry's dominant peak. He'd be much higher on the list I'd wager but don't think he'd pass the other 2 given this is a career based study.


GOALS VERSUS THRESHOLD - CAREER @Hockey Outsider study with his overview below

Player	GVT
Patrick Roy*	1,145.7
Tony Esposito*	1,098.9
Roberto Luongo	1,001.9
Martin Brodeur*	960.5
Dominik Hasek*	942.0
Glenn Hall*	924.9
Jacques Plante*	834.5
Ken Dryden*	586.9

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Goals versus threshold compares the number of goals each goalie saves/allows, relative to a theoretical borderline NHLer. I've arbitrarily set the threshold save percentage in each season at 97.5% of the league average. This isn't scientific, but it looks about right. The theory is any goalie who's about 97.5% as good as the league average is just below the cusp of being an NHL player. If they're playing in the NHL, they're most likely a prospect who the team is trying to develop; an old veteran with an expensive contract; or an injury replacement. Since there are plenty of goalies in the minor leagues who are roughly at this level, a GM should be able to get a netminder of this quality for minimal consideration.

The reason I like this statistic is it shows that there's value in being an average (or even below-average) goalie. Even a below-average goalie has value in the sense that the coach isn't force to play someone who isn't even NHL calibre.

This statistic tends to reward players with longer career. Ken Dryden dominated the first two tables, but he fares much worse here.

Martin Brodeur, who spent a long stretch of his career stopping the puck at close to league average level, skyrockets to 4th place, as there was significant value in him playing so many games, even if it was at a lower level than, say, Dryden or Hasek.


PEAK SAVE PERCENTAGE (1956-2018) @Hockey Outsider study with my comments below table

Ken Dryden*	93.4%
Dominik Hasek*	93.2%
Tony Esposito*	92.9%
Patrick Roy*	92.9%
Bernie Parent*	92.6%
Glenn Resch	92.3%
John Vanbiesbrouck	92.2%
Jacques Plante*	92.1%
Ed Belfour*	92.0%
Roberto Luongo	92.0%
Dan Bouchard	91.9%
Martin Brodeur*	91.9%
Glenn Hall*	91.9%
Terry Sawchuk*	90.3%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-It's great to see Brodeur fare well in a peak study based around save %, because he generally is viewed by the average person as a career/longevity guy. But he stacks up well with Hall and they are both just marginally below Jacques Plante for reference.


GOALS VERSUS AVERAGE - PEAK HO study again! Amazing work.

Dominik Hasek*	365.5
Tony Esposito*	325.1
Ken Dryden*	319.9
Patrick Roy*	269.5
Bernie Parent*	239.4
Jacques Plante*	218.8
Roberto Luongo	209.1
Glenn Hall*	196.5
John Vanbiesbrouck	194.1
Curtis Joseph	192.3
Martin Brodeur*	186.2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Hall edges Brodeur here but again, it would seem that Marty is usually either right on Hall's level among these regular season studies, or just below him by a small margin.



What about the postseason?

-He won 3 Stanley Cups. and was spectacular especially in 1995. HO can certainly chime in with more detail. How he doesn't have a Smythe is beyond me.

-2nd all time in playoff wins. (Roy)

-2nd all time in playoff shutouts. (Roy)

-2nd all time in shots against. (Roy is way ahead in 1st, Marty way ahead of 3rd place)


Career Save Percentage postseason - minimum 1,000 adjusted shots

* This table is now updated for 2018

Goalie	Shots	Saves	Sv%
Tim Thomas	1,526	1,409	92.4%
Olaf Kolzig	1,446	1,330	92.0%
Patrick Roy*	7,218	6,638	92.0%
John Vanbiesbrouck	2,030	1,865	91.9%
Ken Wregget	1,767	1,622	91.8%
Dominik Hasek	3,422	3,140	91.7%
Ed Belfour*	4,641	4,256	91.7%
Braden Holtby	2,374	2,177	91.7%
Jean-Sebastien Giguere	1,546	1,416	91.6%
Martin Jones	1,129	1,033	91.5%
Craig Anderson	1,482	1,356	91.5%
Tuukka Rask	1,958	1,790	91.4%
Kirk McLean	2,099	1,918	91.4%
Patrick Lalime	1,105	1,010	91.4%
Cam Ward	1,137	1,038	91.3%
Dwayne Roloson	1,478	1,348	91.2%
Jonathan Quick	2,445	2,228	91.1%
Felix Potvin	2,186	1,992	91.1%
Curtis Joseph	4,044	3,685	91.1%
Martin Brodeur	5,439	4,953	91.1%
Grant Fuhr*	3,966	3,610	91.0%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-This is an older table that doesn't include the players dating back to 1956, but perhaps @Hockey Outsider has the updated data including the 06 goalies like Hall, Plante and Sawchuk.


Top Thirty Playoffs – minimum 1,000 minutes @Hockey Outsider great work again

* updated for 2018

Goalie	Cup?	Smythe?	Year	Team	Minutes	Shots	Saves	Sv%
Martin Brodeur	Yes		1995	NJD	1,222	475	448	94.4%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	1993	MTL	1,293	611	577	94.3%
Pelle Lindbergh			1985	PHI	1,008	468	441	94.3%
Ed Belfour*			1995	CHI	1,014	491	462	93.9%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	1986	MTL	1,218	489	458	93.7%
Jean-Sebastien Giguere		Yes	2003	MDA	1,407	760	711	93.6%
Patrick Roy*			1989	MTL	1,206	521	488	93.6%
Reggie Lemelin			1988	BOS	1,027	442	414	93.5%
Olaf Kolzig			1998	WSH	1,351	770	720	93.5%
John Vanbiesbrouck			1996	FLA	1,332	720	672	93.4%
Tim Thomas	Yes	Yes	2011	BOS	1,542	789	736	93.3%
Jonathan Quick	Yes	Yes	2012	LAK	1,238	546	509	93.2%
Dominik Hasek			1999	BUF	1,217	616	574	93.2%
Tom Barrasso	Yes		1991	PIT	1,175	600	559	93.2%
Bill Ranford	Yes	Yes	1990	EDM	1,401	676	629	93.2%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	2001	COL	1,451	693	645	93.0%
Mike Smith			2012	PHX	1,027	611	568	93.0%
Dwayne Roloson			2006	EDM	1,160	625	581	92.9%
Sean Burke			1988	NJD	1,001	530	492	92.9%
Kirk McLean			1994	VAN	1,544	813	755	92.8%
Martin Brodeur			1994	NJD	1,171	526	488	92.7%
Andy Moog			1990	BOS	1,195	489	453	92.7%
Arturs Irbe			2002	CAR	1,078	511	474	92.7%
Marc-Andre Fleury			2008	PIT	1,251	603	559	92.6%
Tuukka Rask			2013	BOS	1,466	724	669	92.4%
Alain Chevrier			1989	CHI	1,013	478	441	92.3%
Ed Belfour*	Yes		1999	DAL	1,544	648	597	92.3%
Martin Brodeur	Yes		2003	NJD	1,491	678	626	92.2%
Chris Osgood	Yes		2008	DET	1,160	425	392	92.2%
Henrik Lundqvist			2014	NYR	1,516	731	674	92.2%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Brodeur doesn't get enough credit for his spectacular performance in 1995. His 92.7% save percentage looks strong on paper, but it's even more incredible when you consider that the league average was only 89.3% that year (88.9% after removing Brodeur's shots and saves). I am adamantly opposed to the idea that Brodeur deserved the Smythe in 2003, but arguably he deserved it in 1995.


Support Neutral Wins & Losses postseason @Hockey Outsider again!

* update for 2018

Goalie	Decision	Wins	Losses	Win%
Patrick Roy*	245	143	102	58.2%
Martin Brodeur	204	109	95	53.5%
Ed Belfour*	156	89	67	57.0%
Grant Fuhr*	137	72	65	52.3%
Curtis Joseph	129	69	60	53.6%
Henrik Lundqvist	126	68	58	53.7%
Mike Vernon	133	65	68	49.1%
Marc-Andre Fleury	133	65	68	49.1%
Dominik Hasek	114	65	49	57.2%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This is a concept developed by Taco McArthur – link. Essentially, it shows how many games a goalie would be expected to win, had they played on an average team. I’m not sure if I like this or Wins Added more (the latter is a statistic I created), but TM’s statistic is far easier to calculate and gives fairly similar results, so let’s go with his! The chart above shows the results for all goalies with 30+ decisions.

Best puckhandling goalie of all time?

Boy, one would have a hard time arguing for anyone else, at least definitively so. Marty is pretty much universally thought of as the best or near best at puck retrieval, and outlet passing as a netminder. I think the NJ's defensive system was so successful in large part because teams were often forced to dump the puck and Brodeur was so apt at getting to the puck and moving it before the opposing forwards could get to it, that the league eventually changed the rules as to where goalies could play the pucks. If that doesn't speak volumes i don't know what else would. The NJ trap probably wouldn't have fared as well with a goalie who couldn't skate and handle the puck, let alone pass it out quickly when needed.

Broduer (45) ranks tied for 3rd all time (Roy) behind Barrasso (48) and Fuhr (47) in assists which is pretty amazing considering who the goalies above him played with and the era they played in. Not to mention most of Brodeur's peak came in the dead puck era and he played on a team slanted towards defensive schematics.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Good post, @ImporterExporter , but I think it would be a lot easier to read if you truncated the irrelevant parts of the tables.

 

[BM67]

I'm not sure if this means anything to anyone, but during Hall's career with the Hawks, he was a much better goalie at home then on the road.
Glenn Hall Stats and News

Brodeur on the other hand, had several seasons in which he was much better on the road then at home.
Martin Brodeur Stats and News

Sawchuk was a goalie who played better at home, but wasn't too bad on the road either.

You'll have to look at the NHL H/R splits to find context. In 1953-54 for instance, all the goalies had losing records on the road, while only the 3 Chicago goalies had losing home records.

From 1950-51 to 1966-67, all 6 teams had winning home records, but Montreal was the only team with a winning road record.

NHL.com - Stats

 

[DannyGallivan]

Martin Brodeur:

I have a ton of respect for what Martin Brodeur accomplished in his long and illustrious career. I've felt the boards often underrated Brodeur because of the era, teams he played on, and more importantly the defensive structure of those teams. While those were certainly all factors to one degree or another, I think it is quite disrespectful to Brodeur on the whole.

@pappyline since he had asked about Brodeur yesterday. Didn't want him to miss my review.


Consider some of the insane numbers:

-691 wins. Most all time. Next closest? Patrick Roy who has 140 fewer. 3rd place is more than 200 wins behind.

-125 shutouts which shattered what many thought was an unbreakable record of 103 by Terry Sawchuk.

People try and use his games played (both single season and career) as some sort of negative. I have a completely different view. The fact that Broduer was so durable for as long as he was, is remarkable.

-He played 70 or more games IN A SINGLE SEASON 12 times! Patrick Roy did that exactly 0 times. Dominik Hasek did that ONCE. To have that kind of workload and still produce good to great numbers consistently is amazing to me. He was shouldered with a huge amount of work, year in and year out, and didn't waver much.

-He won 4 Vezina's. 2 during the end of the lower scoring dead puck era, and 2 directly after the lockout when scoring jumped considerably. Look at his Vezina win in 2006-07. The only goalie to face more shots was Miikka Kiprusoff and Brodeur had the best SV% of any goalie with at least 50 starts. He also had 12 shutouts, 4 more than Hasek. Kind of debunks the notion he couldn't put up excellent numbers while facing high volume doesn't it?

-Besides his 4 Vezina wins, he was a finalist another 5 times.

-He was top 5 in Hart voting 7 times.

-He was a 7 time post season all star, which is one more than Roy.

-Brodeur was spectacular at the 2002 Olympic games, where he helped Canada win gold.

-Was again amazing in 2004 at the World Cup of Hockey, where he allowed only 5 goals in 5 games, posting a .951 SV%.


Here's a look at some advanced studies:


CAREER SAVE PERCENTAGE (1956-2018) @Hockey Outsider study, comments below table are mine.

Player	Min	SA	Saves	Sv%
Ken Dryden*	24,105	11,301	10,559	93.4%
Dominik Hasek*	44,465	22,090	20,434	92.5%
Tony Esposito*	54,387	27,782	25,613	92.2%
Patrick Roy*	62,369	30,475	28,036	92.0%
Bernie Parent*	37,214	18,100	16,650	92.0%
Johnny Bower*	31,983	16,202	14,885	91.9%
Billy Smith*	39,460	19,617	17,988	91.7%
Glenn Resch	33,023	16,442	15,066	91.6%
Jacques Plante*	51,842	24,846	22,758	91.6%
Tim Thomas	24,448	13,037	11,932	91.5%
Roberto Luongo	58,379	31,101	28,445	91.5%
Pete Peeters	28,397	12,737	11,644	91.4%
Tuukka Rask	27,263	13,228	12,093	91.4%
Henrik Lundqvist	48,956	24,127	22,040	91.3%
Glenn Hall*	61,347	29,793	27,213	91.3%
Don Edwards	26,797	13,100	11,965	91.3%
Tomas Vokoun	40,424	21,541	19,670	91.3%
John Vanbiesbrouck	52,351	26,207	23,927	91.3%
Sergei Bobrovsky	24,386	12,428	11,338	91.2%
Dan Bouchard	38,978	19,112	17,435	91.2%
Guy Hebert	29,289	15,905	14,508	91.2%
Cory Schneider	22,421	11,091	10,115	91.2%
Reggie Lemelin	28,584	14,100	12,858	91.2%
Mike Palmateer	20,586	10,904	9,943	91.2%
Ed Belfour*	57,444	26,554	24,203	91.1%
Kelly Hrudey	39,839	21,428	19,530	91.1%
Doug Favell	21,789	11,767	10,722	91.1%
Denis Herron	26,221	14,567	13,271	91.1%
Andy Moog	41,852	20,260	18,457	91.1%
Braden Holtby	22,158	11,180	10,185	91.1%
Daren Puppa	25,373	12,592	11,471	91.1%
Gump Worsley*	49,640	26,383	24,024	91.1%
Curtis Joseph	55,370	28,577	26,022	91.1%
Corey Crawford	24,814	12,122	11,038	91.1%
Glen Hanlon	26,624	13,717	12,490	91.1%
Martin Brodeur*	77,173	34,261	31,192	91.0%
Carey Price	34,501	17,428	15,865	91.0%
Pekka Rinne	34,626	16,863	15,351	91.0%
Mike Liut	39,049	19,221	17,493	91.0%
Manny Legace	20,140	9,598	8,731	91.0%
Jean-Sebastien Giguere	34,360	17,413	15,838	91.0%
Ron Hextall	36,280	17,287	15,720	90.9%
Ryan Miller	44,557	23,269	21,158	90.9%
Mike Richter	39,612	20,814	18,924	90.9%
Tom Barrasso	44,707	22,746	20,676	90.9%
Sean Burke	48,252	25,236	22,932	90.9%
Pat Riggin	20,324	9,508	8,640	90.9%
Rick Wamsley	23,668	11,006	9,999	90.8%
Devan Dubnyk	25,577	13,095	11,895	90.8%
Niklas Backstrom	25,158	12,385	11,249	90.8%
Craig Anderson	33,079	17,883	16,240	90.8%
Felix Potvin	38,130	19,509	17,715	90.8%
Jaroslav Halak	26,397	13,013	11,816	90.8%
Jonathan Quick	33,960	15,482	14,058	90.8%
Jon Casey	24,072	11,552	10,488	90.8%
Bob Essensa	24,247	12,396	11,251	90.8%
Evgeni Nabokov	41,905	20,067	18,211	90.7%
Miikka Kiprusoff	37,121	18,032	16,363	90.7%
Jimmy Howard	28,065	13,672	12,406	90.7%
Martin Biron	28,852	14,704	13,340	90.7%
Semyon Varlamov	24,213	12,884	11,688	90.7%
Jeff Hackett	28,396	14,690	13,325	90.7%
Marc-Andre Fleury	43,758	21,774	19,751	90.7%
Don Beaupre	39,400	19,723	17,890	90.7%
Rogie Vachon*	48,315	22,707	20,595	90.7%
Jonas Hiller	23,662	11,877	10,771	90.7%
Marty Turco	30,957	13,948	12,648	90.7%
Kari Lehtonen	38,245	19,952	18,082	90.6%
Cesare Maniago	34,660	18,489	16,754	90.6%
Ilya Bryzgalov	28,178	14,014	12,697	90.6%
Mike Dunham	21,653	11,560	10,472	90.6%
Jose Theodore	37,150	19,172	17,364	90.6%
Olaf Kolzig	42,180	21,693	19,643	90.6%
Mike Smith	31,662	16,455	14,900	90.6%
Nikolai Khabibulin	47,042	24,182	21,893	90.5%
Antti Niemi	27,124	13,200	11,950	90.5%
Stephane Fiset	23,045	12,228	11,070	90.5%
Gerry Cheevers*	25,882	12,193	11,036	90.5%
Dwayne Roloson	34,297	17,615	15,941	90.5%
Brian Elliott	23,987	11,219	10,153	90.5%
Ed Giacomin*	38,414	17,759	16,069	90.5%
Chris Osgood	43,281	20,053	18,144	90.5%
Chris Terreri	22,989	11,069	10,015	90.5%
Gilles Meloche	46,706	24,376	22,053	90.5%
Grant Fuhr*	50,119	25,187	22,783	90.5%
Jocelyn Thibault	33,493	16,995	15,372	90.5%
Tommy Salo	30,690	14,832	13,401	90.3%
Byron Dafoe	23,605	11,749	10,614	90.3%
Bruce Gamble	20,523	11,095	10,023	90.3%
Bob Sauve	24,254	11,245	10,157	90.3%
Steve Mason	27,719	14,090	12,725	90.3%
Trevor Kidd	23,135	11,693	10,561	90.3%
Roger Crozier	31,600	15,680	14,161	90.3%
Ron Tugnutt	29,863	15,075	13,611	90.3%
Patrick Lalime	25,241	12,064	10,892	90.3%
Cam Ward	39,094	19,547	17,646	90.3%
Arturs Irbe	33,375	16,589	14,975	90.3%
Mike Vernon	46,128	21,228	19,160	90.3%
Charlie Hodge	22,470	10,311	9,304	90.2%
Glenn Healy	25,079	12,620	11,387	90.2%
Terry Sawchuk*	42,551	20,631	18,609	90.2%
Richard Brodeur	22,450	11,138	10,041	90.1%
Ken Wregget	33,546	17,951	16,179	90.1%
Greg Millen	36,181	18,318	16,504	90.1%
Brian Hayward	20,446	10,000	9,009	90.1%
Gilles Gilbert	24,385	11,247	10,129	90.1%
Bill Ranford	37,668	19,440	17,506	90.0%
Kirk McLean	36,938	18,168	16,352	90.0%
Gary Smith	31,086	16,004	14,400	90.0%
Peter Budaj	20,609	9,735	8,758	90.0%
Phil Myre	26,023	13,068	11,756	90.0%
Ondrej Pavelec	24,110	12,556	11,288	89.9%
Tim Cheveldae	20,376	10,191	9,147	89.8%
Johan Hedberg	21,543	10,682	9,578	89.7%
Eddie Johnston	37,558	18,691	16,754	89.6%
Jim Rutherford	26,737	13,320	11,899	89.3%
Ron Low	21,038	11,361	10,100	88.9%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Brodeur's adjusted regular season save percentage is pretty solid, just 0.3 points below up for vote Hall, who i think is a slightly better regular season goalie, but as we go into more studies, will show that gap isn't all that big. Also, Brodeur suffers a little bit here because his minutes and shots faced are much higher than any other goalie all time. Generally the longer a career and more volume you face, especially as one ages, the lower your save percentage will end up being. Sawchuk looks poor here but unfortunately we only have save% data going back to 1956 at this point so that erases most of Terry's dominant peak. He'd be much higher on the list I'd wager but don't think he'd pass the other 2 given this is a career based study.


GOALS VERSUS THRESHOLD - CAREER @Hockey Outsider study with his overview below

Player	GVT
Patrick Roy*	1,145.7
Tony Esposito*	1,098.9
Roberto Luongo	1,001.9
Martin Brodeur*	960.5
Dominik Hasek*	942.0
Glenn Hall*	924.9
Jacques Plante*	834.5
Curtis Joseph	806.1
John Vanbiesbrouck	803.1
Ed Belfour*	772.0
Henrik Lundqvist	750.7
Gump Worsley*	744.5
Billy Smith*	678.7
Bernie Parent*	678.5
Sean Burke	664.4
Tomas Vokoun	663.5
Ryan Miller	625.9
Kelly Hrudey	622.7
Tom Barrasso	605.9
Johnny Bower*	588.5
Ken Dryden*	586.9
Andy Moog	580.7
Dan Bouchard	570.7
Grant Fuhr*	559.1
Rogie Vachon*	558.6
Glenn Resch	558.0
Mike Richter	557.6
Nikolai Khabibulin	555.5
Gilles Meloche	544.2
Marc-Andre Fleury	537.9
Mike Liut	533.2
Evgeni Nabokov	503.9
Olaf Kolzig	501.9
Felix Potvin	501.0
Carey Price	487.8
Don Beaupre	486.1
Kari Lehtonen	476.8
Guy Hebert	474.4
Jean-Sebastien Giguere	473.0
Pekka Rinne	470.9
Ron Hextall	466.0
Craig Anderson	461.4
Miikka Kiprusoff	452.3
Chris Osgood	449.9
Jose Theodore	447.0
Cesare Maniago	439.4
Mike Vernon	429.5
Tim Thomas	429.0
Tuukka Rask	420.3
Denis Herron	418.0
Reggie Lemelin	416.7
Don Edwards	405.4
Pete Peeters	405.0
Terry Sawchuk*	404.9
Ed Giacomin*	398.6
Dwayne Roloson	398.5
Cam Ward	398.3
Jonathan Quick	396.8
Glen Hanlon	386.3
Mike Smith	380.6
Jocelyn Thibault	376.5
Sergei Bobrovsky	372.5
Martin Biron	366.2
Jeff Hackett	363.0
Daren Puppa	359.9
Bill Ranford	352.3
Jimmy Howard	341.9
Corey Crawford	341.9
Devan Dubnyk	341.1
Marty Turco	340.6
Greg Millen	340.5
Ken Wregget	339.6
Doug Favell	338.9
Arturs Irbe	336.7
Jaroslav Halak	333.7
Ilya Bryzgalov	331.4
Cory Schneider	329.3
Roger Crozier	324.7
Kirk McLean	321.5
Mike Palmateer	321.3
Niklas Backstrom	320.5
Semyon Varlamov	319.8
Braden Holtby	319.6
Tommy Salo	313.2
Bob Essensa	312.9
Ron Tugnutt	309.1
Antti Niemi	302.6
Jon Casey	295.2
Steve Mason	292.6
Jonas Hiller	291.5
Rick Wamsley	287.4
Stephane Fiset	279.9
Gary Smith	278.6
Gerry Cheevers*	277.1
Mike Dunham	271.7
Manny Legace	262.0
Eddie Johnston	261.6
Brian Elliott	253.5
Glenn Healy	251.9
Pat Riggin	250.3
Chris Terreri	247.6
Patrick Lalime	247.0
Byron Dafoe	247.0
Trevor Kidd	242.8
Bob Sauve	234.9
Bruce Gamble	232.7
Phil Myre	225.3
Richard Brodeur	212.9
Ondrej Pavelec	208.0
Charlie Hodge	206.0
Gilles Gilbert	205.2
Brian Hayward	185.7
Peter Budaj	168.0
Tim Cheveldae	154.3
Johan Hedberg	152.7
Jim Rutherford	145.8
Ron Low	75.6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Goals versus threshold compares the number of goals each goalie saves/allows, relative to a theoretical borderline NHLer. I've arbitrarily set the threshold save percentage in each season at 97.5% of the league average. This isn't scientific, but it looks about right. The theory is any goalie who's about 97.5% as good as the league average is just below the cusp of being an NHL player. If they're playing in the NHL, they're most likely a prospect who the team is trying to develop; an old veteran with an expensive contract; or an injury replacement. Since there are plenty of goalies in the minor leagues who are roughly at this level, a GM should be able to get a netminder of this quality for minimal consideration.

The reason I like this statistic is it shows that there's value in being an average (or even below-average) goalie. Even a below-average goalie has value in the sense that the coach isn't force to play someone who isn't even NHL calibre.

This statistic tends to reward players with longer career. Ken Dryden dominated the first two tables, but he fares much worse here.

Martin Brodeur, who spent a long stretch of his career stopping the puck at close to league average level, skyrockets to 4th place, as there was significant value in him playing so many games, even if it was at a lower level than, say, Dryden or Hasek.


[PEAK SAVE PERCENTAGE (1956-2018) @Hockey Outsider study with my comments below table

Ken Dryden*	93.4%
Dominik Hasek*	93.2%
Tony Esposito*	92.9%
Patrick Roy*	92.9%
Bernie Parent*	92.6%
Glenn Resch	92.3%
John Vanbiesbrouck	92.2%
Jacques Plante*	92.1%
Ed Belfour*	92.0%
Roberto Luongo	92.0%
Dan Bouchard	91.9%
Martin Brodeur*	91.9%
Glenn Hall*	91.9%
Tom Barrasso	91.9%
Curtis Joseph	91.8%
Johnny Bower*	91.8%
Tomas Vokoun	91.8%
Henrik Lundqvist	91.7%
Rogie Vachon*	91.7%
Sean Burke	91.7%
Kelly Hrudey	91.7%
Andy Moog	91.7%
Mike Liut	91.5%
Tim Thomas	91.5%
Ron Hextall	91.5%
Tuukka Rask	91.4%
Carey Price	91.4%
Pekka Rinne	91.4%
Guy Hebert	91.4%
Cesare Maniago	91.4%
Grant Fuhr*	91.3%
Jean-Sebastien Giguere	91.3%
Gump Worsley*	91.3%
Ryan Miller	91.3%
Nikolai Khabibulin	91.3%
Evgeni Nabokov	91.3%
Felix Potvin	91.2%
Dwayne Roloson	91.2%
Don Beaupre	91.2%
Gilles Meloche	91.2%
Jose Theodore	91.2%
Jonathan Quick	91.1%
Ed Giacomin*	91.1%
Marc-Andre Fleury	91.0%
Mike Richter	91.0%
Olaf Kolzig	91.0%
Craig Anderson	91.0%
Kari Lehtonen	91.0%
Corey Crawford	91.0%
Miikka Kiprusoff	91.0%
Chris Osgood	91.0%
Mike Vernon	91.0%
Gerry Cheevers*	90.9%
Jonas Hiller	90.8%
Jimmy Howard	90.8%
Mike Smith	90.8%
Kirk McLean	90.7%
Marty Turco	90.7%
Cam Ward	90.7%
Jocelyn Thibault	90.6%
Tommy Salo	90.5%
Steve Mason	90.5%
Greg Millen	90.4%
Terry Sawchuk*	90.3%
Bill Ranford	90.2%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-It's great to see Brodeur fare well in a peak study based around save %, because he generally is viewed by the average person as a career/longevity guy. But he stacks up well with Hall and they are both just marginally below Jacques Plante for reference.


GOALS VERSUS AVERAGE - PEAK HO study again! Amazing work.

Dominik Hasek*	365.5
Tony Esposito*	325.1
Ken Dryden*	319.9
Patrick Roy*	269.5
Bernie Parent*	239.4
Jacques Plante*	218.8
Roberto Luongo	209.1
Glenn Hall*	196.5
John Vanbiesbrouck	194.1
Curtis Joseph	192.3
Martin Brodeur*	186.2
Glenn Resch	183.4
Ed Belfour*	182.9
Tomas Vokoun	169.3
Henrik Lundqvist	167.7
Johnny Bower*	158.8
Dan Bouchard	150.6
Tom Barrasso	150.0
Sean Burke	144.9
Kelly Hrudey	136.6
Rogie Vachon*	134.2
Mike Liut	122.6
Guy Hebert	118.6
Tim Thomas	115.2
Carey Price	114.4
Ron Hextall	112.8
Pekka Rinne	112.2
Gump Worsley*	111.2
Andy Moog	108.9
Tuukka Rask	105.7
Ryan Miller	104.0
Felix Potvin	100.4
Grant Fuhr*	96.4
Evgeni Nabokov	93.7
Nikolai Khabibulin	93.1
Jean-Sebastien Giguere	92.9
Cesare Maniago	87.9
Jose Theodore	80.5
Dwayne Roloson	78.9
Olaf Kolzig	76.9
Gilles Meloche	73.4
Jonathan Quick	72.9
Ed Giacomin*	71.6
Mike Richter	70.8
Don Beaupre	69.7
Miikka Kiprusoff	69.6
Marc-Andre Fleury	64.9
Kari Lehtonen	63.3
Craig Anderson	59.8
Corey Crawford	53.2
Chris Osgood	48.3
Mike Vernon	47.4
Gerry Cheevers*	38.2
Jonas Hiller	35.3
Mike Smith	31.9
Jimmy Howard	31.4
Cam Ward	22.0
Marty Turco	21.6
Kirk McLean	21.1
Jocelyn Thibault	15.7
Tommy Salo	2.8
Steve Mason	(1.8)
Greg Millen	(14.8)
Terry Sawchuk*	(23.0)
Bill Ranford	(35.7)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Hall edges Brodeur here but again, it would seem that Marty is usually either right on Hall's level among these regular season studies, or just below him by a small margin.



What about the postseason?

-He won 3 Stanley Cups. and was spectacular especially in 1995. HO can certainly chime in with more detail. How he doesn't have a Smythe is beyond me.

-2nd all time in playoff wins. (Roy)

-2nd all time in playoff shutouts. (Roy)

-2nd all time in shots against. (Roy is way ahead in 1st, Marty way ahead of 3rd place)


Career Save Percentage postseason - minimum 1,000 adjusted shots

* This table is now updated for 2018

Goalie	Shots	Saves	Sv%
Tim Thomas	1,526	1,409	92.4%
Olaf Kolzig	1,446	1,330	92.0%
Patrick Roy*	7,218	6,638	92.0%
John Vanbiesbrouck	2,030	1,865	91.9%
Ken Wregget	1,767	1,622	91.8%
Dominik Hasek	3,422	3,140	91.7%
Ed Belfour*	4,641	4,256	91.7%
Braden Holtby	2,374	2,177	91.7%
Jean-Sebastien Giguere	1,546	1,416	91.6%
Martin Jones	1,129	1,033	91.5%
Craig Anderson	1,482	1,356	91.5%
Tuukka Rask	1,958	1,790	91.4%
Kirk McLean	2,099	1,918	91.4%
Patrick Lalime	1,105	1,010	91.4%
Cam Ward	1,137	1,038	91.3%
Dwayne Roloson	1,478	1,348	91.2%
Jonathan Quick	2,445	2,228	91.1%
Felix Potvin	2,186	1,992	91.1%
Curtis Joseph	4,044	3,685	91.1%
Martin Brodeur	5,439	4,953	91.1%
Grant Fuhr*	3,966	3,610	91.0%
Henrik Lundqvist	3,739	3,402	91.0%
Mike Liut	1,064	968	91.0%
Mike Richter	2,182	1,985	91.0%
Miikka Kiprusoff	1,679	1,527	90.9%
Bill Ranford	1,536	1,396	90.9%
Tom Barrasso	3,521	3,197	90.8%
Roberto Luongo	2,087	1,895	90.8%
Chris Osgood	3,246	2,943	90.7%
Jimmy Howard	1,424	1,291	90.6%
Ryan Miller	1,708	1,548	90.6%
Corey Crawford	2,522	2,284	90.6%
Nikolai Khabibulin	2,155	1,951	90.5%
Ron Hextall	2,632	2,382	90.5%
Reggie Lemelin	1,147	1,036	90.3%
Marty Turco	1,345	1,215	90.3%
Pekka Rinne	2,311	2,087	90.3%
Kelly Hrudey	2,531	2,286	90.3%
Carey Price	1,702	1,536	90.3%
Sean Burke	1,101	993	90.2%
Greg Millen	1,336	1,205	90.2%
Brian Boucher	1,069	964	90.2%
Marc-Andre Fleury	3,813	3,437	90.1%
Don Beaupre	1,538	1,386	90.1%
Mike Vernon	3,493	3,146	90.1%
Jose Theodore	1,730	1,559	90.1%
Jon Casey	1,789	1,611	90.1%
Frederik Andersen	1,192	1,071	89.9%
Andy Moog	2,655	2,385	89.8%
Evgeni Nabokov	2,314	2,077	89.7%
Ilya Bryzgalov	1,304	1,169	89.7%
Arturs Irbe	1,513	1,357	89.6%
Antti Niemi	1,808	1,618	89.5%
Ray Emery	1,051	937	89.2%
Brian Elliott	1,154	1,029	89.1%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-This is an older table that doesn't include the players dating back to 1956, but perhaps @Hockey Outsider has the updated data including the 06 goalies like Hall, Plante and Sawchuk.


Top Thirty Playoffs – minimum 1,000 minutes @Hockey Outsider great work again

* updated for 2018

Goalie	Cup?	Smythe?	Year	Team	Minutes	Shots	Saves	Sv%
Martin Brodeur	Yes		1995	NJD	1,222	475	448	94.4%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	1993	MTL	1,293	611	577	94.3%
Pelle Lindbergh			1985	PHI	1,008	468	441	94.3%
Ed Belfour*			1995	CHI	1,014	491	462	93.9%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	1986	MTL	1,218	489	458	93.7%
Jean-Sebastien Giguere		Yes	2003	MDA	1,407	760	711	93.6%
Patrick Roy*			1989	MTL	1,206	521	488	93.6%
Reggie Lemelin			1988	BOS	1,027	442	414	93.5%
Olaf Kolzig			1998	WSH	1,351	770	720	93.5%
John Vanbiesbrouck			1996	FLA	1,332	720	672	93.4%
Tim Thomas	Yes	Yes	2011	BOS	1,542	789	736	93.3%
Jonathan Quick	Yes	Yes	2012	LAK	1,238	546	509	93.2%
Dominik Hasek			1999	BUF	1,217	616	574	93.2%
Tom Barrasso	Yes		1991	PIT	1,175	600	559	93.2%
Bill Ranford	Yes	Yes	1990	EDM	1,401	676	629	93.2%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	2001	COL	1,451	693	645	93.0%
Mike Smith			2012	PHX	1,027	611	568	93.0%
Dwayne Roloson			2006	EDM	1,160	625	581	92.9%
Sean Burke			1988	NJD	1,001	530	492	92.9%
Kirk McLean			1994	VAN	1,544	813	755	92.8%
Martin Brodeur			1994	NJD	1,171	526	488	92.7%
Andy Moog			1990	BOS	1,195	489	453	92.7%
Arturs Irbe			2002	CAR	1,078	511	474	92.7%
Marc-Andre Fleury			2008	PIT	1,251	603	559	92.6%
Tuukka Rask			2013	BOS	1,466	724	669	92.4%
Alain Chevrier			1989	CHI	1,013	478	441	92.3%
Ed Belfour*	Yes		1999	DAL	1,544	648	597	92.3%
Martin Brodeur	Yes		2003	NJD	1,491	678	626	92.2%
Chris Osgood	Yes		2008	DET	1,160	425	392	92.2%
Henrik Lundqvist			2014	NYR	1,516	731	674	92.2%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Brodeur doesn't get enough credit for his spectacular performance in 1995. His 92.7% save percentage looks strong on paper, but it's even more incredible when you consider that the league average was only 89.3% that year (88.9% after removing Brodeur's shots and saves). I am adamantly opposed to the idea that Brodeur deserved the Smythe in 2003, but arguably he deserved it in 1995.


Support Neutral Wins & Losses postseason @Hockey Outsider again!

* update for 2018

Goalie	Decision	Wins	Losses	Win%
Patrick Roy*	245	143	102	58.2%
Martin Brodeur	204	109	95	53.5%
Ed Belfour*	156	89	67	57.0%
Grant Fuhr*	137	72	65	52.3%
Curtis Joseph	129	69	60	53.6%
Henrik Lundqvist	126	68	58	53.7%
Mike Vernon	133	65	68	49.1%
Marc-Andre Fleury	133	65	68	49.1%
Dominik Hasek	114	65	49	57.2%
Chris Osgood	123	63	60	51.4%
Tom Barrasso	115	59	56	51.7%
Braden Holtby	82	47	35	57.8%
Andy Moog	100	47	53	47.3%
Jonathan Quick	85	47	38	55.5%
Ron Hextall	90	46	44	50.8%
Corey Crawford	85	43	42	50.8%
Pekka Rinne	83	41	42	49.4%
Kelly Hrudey	82	41	41	49.8%
Mike Richter	74	40	34	53.4%
Evgeni Nabokov	84	39	45	46.5%
Felix Potvin	72	38	34	53.0%
Kirk McLean	68	37	31	54.8%
Tuukka Rask	65	36	29	56.0%
Nikolai Khabibulin	70	36	34	51.2%
Roberto Luongo	69	36	33	51.7%
Tim Thomas	50	31	19	62.4%
Ken Wregget	53	31	22	58.6%
Jon Casey	63	30	33	47.6%
Antti Niemi	65	29	36	45.2%
Ryan Miller	55	28	27	51.4%
Jean-Sebastien Giguere	50	28	22	56.5%
Miikka Kiprusoff	53	28	25	52.6%
Carey Price	56	28	28	49.7%
Bill Ranford	53	27	26	51.6%
Olaf Kolzig	44	26	18	59.1%
Don Beaupre	53	26	27	48.8%
Craig Anderson	45	25	20	56.6%
Dwayne Roloson	46	25	21	53.9%
Jose Theodore	51	24	27	47.9%
Arturs Irbe	50	24	26	48.1%
Jimmy Howard	47	24	23	50.8%
Marty Turco	47	24	23	50.8%
Patrick Lalime	41	23	18	55.5%
Martin Jones	40	23	17	56.3%
Cam Ward	41	22	19	54.8%
Greg Millen	46	22	24	48.8%
Ilya Bryzgalov	45	21	24	46.5%
Mike Liut	35	19	16	53.5%
Reggie Lemelin	36	19	17	51.6%
Ben Bishop	34	18	16	54.4%
Frederik Andersen	38	18	20	47.7%
Brian Elliott	41	18	23	43.8%
Jonas Hiller	30	17	13	57.2%
Matt Murray	33	17	16	51.9%
Pete Peeters	34	17	17	50.2%
Sean Burke	35	17	18	47.6%
Ray Emery	38	16	22	42.8%
Mario Gosselin	31	15	16	47.3%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This is a concept developed by Taco McArthur – link. Essentially, it shows how many games a goalie would be expected to win, had they played on an average team. I’m not sure if I like this or Wins Added more (the latter is a statistic I created), but TM’s statistic is far easier to calculate and gives fairly similar results, so let’s go with his! The chart above shows the results for all goalies with 30+ decisions.

Best puckhandling goalie of all time?

Boy, one would have a hard time arguing for anyone else, at least definitively so. Marty is pretty much universally thought of as the best or near best at puck retrieval, and outlet passing as a netminder. I think the NJ's defensive system was so successful in large part because teams were often forced to dump the puck and Brodeur was so apt at getting to the puck and moving it before the opposing forwards could get to it, that the league eventually changed the rules as to where goalies could play the pucks. If that doesn't speak volumes i don't know what else would. The NJ trap probably wouldn't have fared as well with a goalie who couldn't skate and handle the puck, let alone pass it out quickly when needed.

Broduer (45) ranks tied for 3rd all time (Roy) behind Barrasso (48) and Fuhr (47) in assists which is pretty amazing considering who the goalies above him played with and the era they played in. Not to mention most of Brodeur's peak came in the dead puck era and he played on a team slanted towards defensive schematics.

Brodeur seems like the "Lidstrom" of goalies. His numbers and accomplishments suggest that he should be ranked higher than he is. And yet...

 

[MXD]

Good post, @ImporterExporter , but I think it would be a lot easier to read if you truncated the irrelevant parts of the tables.

How dare you! The Post Neutral Win-Loss % of Mario Gosselin is absolutely essential to determine where Martin Brodeur belongs.

 

[BenchBrawl]

That would mean that it is too early to vote in Nighbor or we vastly underrated those other three players.

No, the comparison is about them being crucial two-way centers for a dynasty (or two in the case of Henri).Actually, I think all of them are underrated.Nighbor is the best of the bunch.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Good post, @ImporterExporter , but I think it would be a lot easier to read if you truncated the irrelevant parts of the tables.

Condensing now sir!

 

[BenchBrawl]

Best puckhandling goalie of all time?

Boy, one would have a hard time arguing for anyone else, at least definitively so. Marty is pretty much universally thought of as the best or near best at puck retrieval, and outlet passing as a netminder. I think the NJ's defensive system was so successful in large part because teams were often forced to dump the puck and Brodeur was so apt at getting to the puck and moving it before the opposing forwards could get to it, that the league eventually changed the rules as to where goalies could play the pucks. If that doesn't speak volumes i don't know what else would. The NJ trap probably wouldn't have fared as well with a goalie who couldn't skate and handle the puck, let alone pass it out quickly when needed.

Broduer (45) ranks tied for 3rd all time (Roy) behind Barrasso (48) and Fuhr (47) in assists which is pretty amazing considering who the goalies above him played with and the era they played in. Not to mention most of Brodeur's peak came in the dead puck era and he played on a team slanted towards defensive schematics.

I guess my total incapacity to understand the art of goaltending will show, but this is always what interests me the most about goalies; their puck handling skills

Is Brodeur the best? Probably, though I'd read good things of Frank Brimsek and Clint Benedict IIRC (something about him passing the puck).Carey Price pretty good too.A complete study on this would be interesting.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Condensing now sir!

How do you erase tables?

 

[The Macho King]

I guess my total incapacity to understand the art of goaltending will show, but this is always what interests me the most about goalies; their puck handling skills

Is Brodeur the best? Probably, though I'd read good things of Frank Brimsek and Clint Benedict IIRC.Carey Price pretty good too.A complete study on this would be interesting.

Price is good - I don't think he approaches the Brodeur/Turco level though. Brodeur stretched teams out - Price just kind of negates a forecheck (but maybe in a trapezoid era that's all you can really expect).

Edit: I'd point out - I don't really know how well you could quantify it. One informative way that I found when Bishop was in Tampa was to see what his SA/G was compared to his backup (he generally allowed about 1.5-2 fewer shots/game than his backups), but that data is a little untrustworthy because a) backups get a lot of back-to-backs, so they may be dealing with a more tired team in front of them, and b) a backup in net versus a starter may encourage teams to "test" a goaltender more with suboptimal shots.

Edit2: If I have time this week, I'll try and see if I can dig up this information on Brodeur vis a vis his backups.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

This was exactly my point. We have 4 of the 50s Habs on the list already, and only two of their contemporaries on other squads so far (Howe and Kelly, and Kelly at least was probably post-peak if not prime -also worth noting they were key members of *another* dynasty).

The more I think about it, the more Nighbor seems like #1 in this round to me. Unless you're going to disrespect old time hockey (AND YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO DO THAT WOULD YOU!), I think the best player in the league(s) on the first dynasty of professional hockey (as opposed to it being more of an amateur thing pre-WW1, but I will allow myself to be corrected if I'm wrong on that point) is a good and just vote this round.

Pre-WWI Montreal Wanderers (1906-1910) would likely be the first professional dynasty. By 1910/NHA formation the game was pretty much wholly professional, and the handful of years before that it was basically an open secret that almost everyone was getting paid, even if the leagues still termed themselves "amateur". But that's just clarification, it doesn't change your point.

The big difference here would be that :
- Hockey as a whole was "deeper" during Beliveau and Howe's time
- None of Beliveau, Howe or their linemates were expected to spend 60 minutes on the ice.

(I know that Nighbor was still a 60-mins player after regular line changes became a thing; that is absolutely a positive, and not what I'm talking about here)

Sure...and I think we've heartily acknowledged this with several players from that era placing very high on our list.

I'm just not comfortable with the idea that we can draw a line in the sand at the 1927 consolidation and discount everything that came before it while giving full credit to everything that came afterwards.

If somebody can present a case that professional hockey was significantly weakened by WWI, as it clearly was from 1942-45, that's a different matter. But nobody has made a comprehensive argument for that in this project. The "era discount" being applied to Nighbor seems to be borne out of lack of information rather than discovery of damning information.

 

[BenchBrawl]

A possible weakness of Nighbor was that he appeared to struggle when the ice was slushy.This happened periodically in that era, so not handling it well should be considered a weakness, like a Tennis player who struggle in the wind.OTOH, it's not certain he was weak there; we'd need a bigger sample size.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If somebody can present a case that professional hockey was significantly weakened by WWI, as it clearly was from 1942-45, that's a different matter. But nobody has made a comprehensive argument for that in this project. The "era discount" being applied to Nighbor seems to be borne out of lack of information rather than discovery of damning information.

I'm not sure how relevant this is right now, but of course WWI weakened hockey - unlike WW2, many players actually saw combat duty, and some even died.