Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

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DannyGallivan

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Controversial question because I can:

I have Crosby and Ovi back to back with Crosby ahead. If I genuinely think Ovi will end up the better player by my definition that shaped my list, would it be reasonable to vote in favour of Ovi once we get to that part? Sure, I wouldn’t base the voting because of something 5-6 years ahead, otherwise McDavid would make the list but I think Ovi can pass Crosby this year.

Where do you even wanna draw the line as far as foresight goes? Not even think about it? I guess it would be more reasonable to consider yourself convinced by whatever arguments others make to make a change from your original list.
I have Crosby two spaces ahead of Ovechkin. If the previous season didn't exist there would have been a much wider gap. However, a Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup and tying Bobby Hull's record for most seasons leading the league in scoring impresses me greatly. He's still behind Crosby, but it's a lot closer now.

However, I doubt that Ovechkin will catch Crosby at this point in their careers. For one, I can't see Washington winning the Cup again this year, and it'll take more playoff excellence for Ovechkin to pass Crosby in my eyes. Perhaps if he won the scoring title again this year, but the competition is much steeper and he ain't getting any younger.
 

Sentinel

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i would be interested if there are any devil's advocates out there for revising the big 4 and other consensus top-10 players. (beliveau vs. howe? kelly vs. harvey? i think there are arguments to be made...) (not that i'm going to be the one making them...)
I am still inclined to put Hasek over Lemieux, but given that I am not likely to win this battle, I'm saving my strength.

And Bobrov is my #120.
 
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DannyGallivan

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i would be interested if there are any devil's advocates out there for revising the big 4 and other consensus top-10 players. (beliveau vs. howe? kelly vs. harvey? i think there are arguments to be made...) (not that i'm going to be the one making them...)
As good as Beliveau was (and he was top 10 in my list), it's virtually unthinkable to put him ahead of Howe. Not a chance. Maybe you can make a case for Kelly v.s. Harvey, but even there I have many spaces between the two (Harvey is my number 2 defenseman), so even that is stretching it.

For my money, it's the top four...and then the best of the human beings.
 

DannyGallivan

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Not saying I'm putting him there- nor am I even saying he's assured of my #5 slot... but I think the player who could make the best case for copping a breakthrough is... Patrick Roy. Unlike Lemieux, the consensus view is that he's the best ever at his position.
I would disagree with this. I'd say Hasek will give him a run for his money for that title.
 

MXD

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Other possibility : The best player not listed by anyone is also the best doctor not listed by anyone.
 
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The Macho King

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I have Ovechkin just ahead in regular season value (mainly because of his goal scoring dominance) but Sid is still well out in front of Ovechkin in the postseason and international departments, IMO. Even with the Cup and Smythe Ovechkin doesn't have a lot of meat on his bones when it comes to the playoffs. In fact the past 5 years prior to last he'd been quite underwhelming. Now a repeat of this past season and that gap shrinks considerbaly, but we'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

I think I'll end up moving Ovechkin up a bit when it's all said and done, but right now we agree that there is more than 1-2 spots between the two.
I'll agree with this. Not that I think Crosby is particularly great in international tournaments (I think he was largely disappointing in '10 despite the Golden goal, and '14 I give pretty much all credit to Canada's ridiculous D), but Ovechkin's international resume is *awful*.

For a guy who is at worst the third best player of the post-lockout world, having only three world championships despite playing what - 10 times? And Russia being able to bring very good teams to those tournaments? That's not enough. And then of course you have no medals in the Olympics (and a disappointing World Cup as well). It's not a huge minus against him because the rest of his resume is stellar (great regular seasons, some great playoff performances although mixed in with some really disappointing ones from 2011-16), but we're getting very granular with these lists and his international play is disappointing.
 
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BenchBrawl

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Other possibility : The best player not listed by anyone is also the best doctor not listed by anyone.

Now that I think of it, I doubt the best player not ranked would be a winger.

Is Recchi better than say Mickey Mackay or Frank Fredrickson? Not convinced at all.
 

BenchBrawl

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If I didn't rank Harry Cameron myself, I'd bet on him as the best player not ranked.I've had the intuition that Harry Cameron was the most underrated player by canon in the last year or so and I suspect researching him throughoutly would be a gold mine for whoever decided to take the plunge.This is just an intuition until his career is clarified though.
 

Michael Farkas

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I could be mistaken, but he didn't seem to get a lot of love from the dozens of people who made various all-time lists or all-decade teams or what have you...he was on my radar for sure, but ultimately didn't make it...there's an awesome thread somewhere where someone compiled all of those teams and lists that Gorman and Selke and all those guys opined about...
 

BenchBrawl

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I could be mistaken, but he didn't seem to get a lot of love from the dozens of people who made various all-time lists or all-decade teams or what have you...he was on my radar for sure, but ultimately didn't make it...there's an awesome thread somewhere where someone compiled all of those teams and lists that Gorman and Selke and all those guys opined about...

Cameron had a lot of warts and I think he was disliked as a person, but my memory is rusty.A complete and throughout summary of his career would be valuable.
 

MXD

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Dr. Recchi? :laugh:

He's not my pick (for skaters it was first Hooley Smith, then Babe Siebert; my actual pick has been Chuck Rayner all along), but amongst skaters, he's totally a guy I could conceive as the best not-listed by anyone.

I mean, a player like Ilya Kovalchuk might get listed. Doesn't mean he's better than Recchi. It just means that somebody thought he was. In the same wake, there are players that are better than Recchi that will be named by one or two users (think Bryan Hextall, who appeared on one list).

Also, his biggest proponent here is probably too rational in his list-making to actually list him!!!!
 
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quoipourquoi

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Not saying I'm putting him there- nor am I even saying he's assured of my #5 slot... but I think the player who could make the best case for copping a breakthrough is... Patrick Roy. Unlike Lemieux, the consensus view is that he's the best ever at his position. Unlike Orr, he had a full career. He matches Howe in Cup-Counting... and you could argue that he had more to do with those Cups than Howe had to do with his.

THN had a Patrick Roy vs. Mario Lemieux article in one of their Great Debates issues. Personally, I wouldn’t make the argument, but I do see him in the 5th spot. To me, had he pulled off the back-to-back in 2001-02 or knocked off the 1989 Flames or taken a split against Dallas in 1999/2000, then maybe you can start a conversation, but Lemieux’s peak offensive level is so otherworldly that it’s hard not to look past his flaws of missed time and the occasional hemorrhaging of goals in the other direction.

But ten seasons of individual awards (1986-1993, 2001, 2002), two additional seasons of Vezina nominations (1994, 1997), 15 seasons with a top-10 save percentage, and 25% of the top-20 statistical Finals runs since the start of the four-round playoff era is obviously nothing to sneeze at. Probably the only checkboxes he missed were scoring a goal and winning a Hart, and instead we have the hilarious Don Cherry VHS where he hits the empty net just as the green light goes off and the shared distinction with Mario Lemieux of taking the 1st Team selection over the more “valuable” Hart winner.
 

The Macho King

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That is not that impressive when looking at a potential top5 player.
Yeah - when "top 10 in save percentage" is top 1/3rd (and for parts of his career basically top 1/2) of your position, that doesn't move the needle for me. Roy at 5 isn't even a consideration for me.
 

Michael Farkas

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There is no goalie with the dominance level of anyone in the Big 4...it's not remotely close either...I don't have any goalies in the top 15 either I don't think...

If Hasek wasn't ineffective in the playoffs, maybe he gets a look in the top 10...but...he's wasn't so he's not...
 
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MXD

Partying Hard
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Yeah - when "top 10 in save percentage" is top 1/3rd (and for parts of his career basically top 1/2) of your position, that doesn't move the needle for me. Roy at 5 isn't even a consideration for me.

I'm not arguing on the merits of Roy at 5th, but...
Is there another netminder who did that?

And don't forget that, for a non-negligible part of Roy's career, teams were still platooning their netminders, so you'd have a lot of goalies meeting the games/minutes played thresholds.
 

ResilientBeast

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Jul 1, 2012
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There is no goalie with the dominance level of anyone in the Big 4...it's not remotely close either...I don't have any goalies in the top 15 either I don't think...

If Hasek wasn't ineffective in the playoffs, maybe he gets a look in the top 10...but...he's wasn't so he's not...

I'm excited to watch you and quoipourquoi go to war
 

DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
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There is no goalie with the dominance level of anyone in the Big 4...it's not remotely close either...I don't have any goalies in the top 15 either I don't think...

If Hasek wasn't ineffective in the playoffs, maybe he gets a look in the top 10...but...he's wasn't so he's not...
Goalies are first introduced on my list at spaces 15 and 16.
 

VanIslander

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Fun fact: Roy's worst and 3rd worst regular seasons in terms of save % (out of his 18 seasons) were two of his Conn Smythe postseasons!

(And his 2nd worst save % season he co-won the Jennings with a worse save % than teammate Hayward.)
 

MXD

Partying Hard
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Wow, I have 3 goalies listed by 15th.
5 by 25th
And 10 by 50th, hahahhaha!!!
 

The Macho King

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Jun 22, 2011
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I have 3 in my top 20 (Hasek 8, Roy 12, Plante 18). Then I have Sawchuk and Hall both in the top 25. Maybe I'm too hard on Marty.
 
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