Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

[DannyGallivan]

This means you value Iginla a lot. He scored the most goals in the tourney in 2010 and more to your point: Iggy was crucial to Canada's 2002 Olympic win over the Americans, scoring key goals in the gold medal game.

He made my top 120.

 

[ImporterExporter]

People REALLY need to check out the various goaltending studies done by @Hockey Outsider @overpass and @quoipourquoi when it comes to Roy. His numbers are absolutely fantastic if you are able to look beyond raw data which can absolutely screw goalies during higher scoring eras.

There is no goalie that comes close to Roy's dominance in the postseason. Not Plante (he was great but had A LOT more help than Roy did), not Sawchuk, Dryden, etc. We're talking about a man with 3 Smythe's, 2 of which are absolutely legendary and the 3rd still quite strong. Hell, the only year he lost in the finals (to Calgary) Roy was insanely brilliant.

Roy's save percentages in the late 80's and early 90's were mostly elite when you adjust for the era. And you have to adjust things like save %. Posting a .914% in 1992 is not the same thing as doing it in 2002. It's why you can't always go by raw data. Unlike Hasek, Roy didn't get to enjoy playing the vast majority of his career in the most depleted scoring environment in history. 3 Vezina wins with 7 other top 5 finishes is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[VanIslander]

In the 1989 world championships Hasek was the tourney all star; in 1990 Irbe was but the media all star vote went to Hasek who shut Yzerman & co out of a medal.

There are more examples, those two coming immediately to mind.

Hasek isn't deficient in playoffs. He is the greatest regular season performer and Roy is the greatest playoff performer.

 

[The Macho King]

People REALLY need to check out the various goaltending studies done by @Hockey Outsider @overpass and @quoipourquoi when it comes to Roy. His numbers are absolutely fantastic if you are able to look beyond raw data which can absolutely screw goalies during higher scoring eras.

There is no goalie that comes close to Roy's dominance in the postseason. Not Plante (he was great but had A LOT more help than Roy did), not Sawchuk, Dryden, etc. We're talking about a man with 3 Smythe's, 2 of which are absolutely legendary and the 3rd still quite strong. Hell, the only year he lost in the finals (to Calgary) Roy was insanely brilliant.

Roy's save percentages in the late 80's and early 90's were mostly elite when you adjust for the era. And you have to adjust things like save %. Posting a .914% in 1992 is not the same thing as doing it in 2002. It's why you can't always go by raw data. Unlike Hasek, Roy didn't get to enjoy playing the vast majority of his career in the most depleted scoring environment in history. 3 Vezina wins with 7 other top 5 finishes is nothing to sneeze at.

There seems to be this bizarre thing that happens when discussing Roy here. I would say that the vast majority of people - including those critiquing him - have him in their top 15. Some maybe even in the top 10.

I don't think I've ever seen a player defended against relatively non-existant attacks.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Not to mention he made that pass to Crosby in 2010.

Crosby made that entire play, went into the corner taking 2 men with him, fed Iginla who snuck a pass back to Sid after Sid beat his man back inside the circle.

 

[ImporterExporter]

There seems to be this bizarre thing that happens when discussing Roy here. I would say that the vast majority of people - including those critiquing him - have him in their top 15. Some maybe even in the top 10.

I don't think I've ever seen a player defended against relatively non-existant attacks.

Oh, I didn't say anyone was attacking Roy. I don't think most people do that, certainly not around these parts.

I just think there is a big misconception that Roy lags behind other goalies in regular season value. And it has to do with looking at his save percentages and making the mistake of thinking they are the same thing as better looking numbers posted in times when scoring was much, much lower.

 

[VanIslander]

There seems to be this bizarre thing that happens when discussing Roy here. I would say that the vast majority of people - including those critiquing him - have him in their top 15. Some maybe even in the top 10.

That's the thing. Some of us have him 15th (i do, am not alone) and some are lobbying already for him in the 5 to 9 range.

This whole top 100 project will come down to debates about 5 to 10 slot/gap positioning. Nothing bizarre about it.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'm of the understanding that the first vote will only place #1-4, under the assumption that the gap between 4th and 5th will be huge. However, I think a clear procedure should be outlined in advance, just in case this turns out not to be so.

10 candidates, 4 will be named to the list. I’m doing this because most of the attention will be on the four obvious players and it doesn’t make sense that we’d add a 5th when most of the discussion involving the other six candidates in the first voting block would be limited at best compared to what we’ll do in a #5-9 voting block. But if Patrick Roy or Jean Beliveau unexpectedly knock off Lemieux, that’s fine too.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Roy vs Hasek is a monumental battle for the purposes of this exercise. I'll be the first to admit that a goaltender winning the Hart (who isn't named Theodore... poor Iginla) impresses the heck out of me. Plus, as someone who saw them throughout their career, Hasek wins the "eye test" for me. He was as spectacular as he was consistent. However, three Conn Smythes for Roy (including two Stanley Cups on Montreal teams that had no business making it to the finals) ain't bad.

So here's a question... Who had more to do with their victory:

Hasek (Nagano Gold medal)
Roy ('93 Stanley Cup)

Both led good (but not great... compared to the field) teams to the top of the mountain. In my opinion, it was the defining achievement for both of them.

 

[DannyGallivan]

But if Patrick Roy or Jean Beliveau unexpectedly knock off Lemieux, that’s fine too.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Hasek was INEFFECTIVE IN PLAYOFFS?? He took what was essentially a non-playoff team to the Conference Finals and the SC Finals in two consecutive seasons! Once he had comparable cast in front of him, he handily won the Cup, outplaying Roy in process. His international resume is in the Top Five All-Time at worst. So I would seriously reconsider that position.

He played on a defensive team in Buffalo that tried to play to his strengths...in the playoffs, he's notorious for some pretty hot garbage going through him at just brutal times...from the start, like game 3 of the 1992 Norris Division Semi-Final where he gives up a garbage goal to Garth Butcher to surrender a 3rd period lead late in what is probably Butcher's only career playoff goal and then follows up by letting Hull beat him along the ice in overtime and allowing the Blues to take the lead in the series...luckily Belfour was there to come in and shut it down and win three straight for Chicago...

All the way to the end of his time in Buffalo, with that muffin that Kasparaitis throws through his glove in Buffalo in overtime in game 7...

The advance scout on Hasek was really focused on in playoff play when it matters...that's why a lot of these unorthodox goaltenders have poorer records in the playoffs as compared to the regular season...and it's also why proper talent evaluation matters.

Hasek was an all-time great, don't get me wrong...but saying that he was a strong playoff goalie is like pissing on my leg and telling me that it's raining...

 

[DannyGallivan]

he's notorious for some pretty hot garbage going through him at just brutal times...

Then again...


Yeah I know... it was one goal. But I loved to watch that. It's tough to choose between him and Hasek for me because I disliked both so much!

 

[ImporterExporter]

He played on a defensive team in Buffalo that tried to play to his strengths...in the playoffs, he's notorious for some pretty hot garbage going through him at just brutal times...from the start, like game 3 of the 1992 Norris Division Semi-Final where he gives up a garbage goal to Garth Butcher to surrender a 3rd period lead late in what is probably Butcher's only career playoff goal and then follows up by letting Hull beat him along the ice in overtime and allowing the Blues to take the lead in the series...luckily Belfour was there to come in and shut it down and win three straight for Chicago...

All the way to the end of his time in Buffalo, with that muffin that Kasparaitis throws through his glove in Buffalo in overtime in game 7...

The advance scout on Hasek was really focused on in playoff play when it matters...that's why a lot of these unorthodox goaltenders have poorer records in the playoffs as compared to the regular season...and it's also why proper talent evaluation matters.

Hasek was an all-time great, don't get me wrong...but saying that he was a strong playoff goalie is like pissing on my leg and telling me that it's raining...

Well stated.

To me the gap between the two is much greater in postseason play compared to regular season. I can think of numerous goalies who had more impressive postseason careers than Hasek. But I can't defnitively say the same thing about Roy and the regular season.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Roy vs Hasek is a monumental battle for the purposes of this exercise. I'll be the first to admit that a goaltender winning the Hart (who isn't named Theodore... poor Iginla) impresses the heck out of me. Plus, as someone who saw them throughout their career, Hasek wins the "eye test" for me. He was as spectacular as he was consistent. However, three Conn Smythes for Roy (including two Stanley Cups on Montreal teams that had no business making it to the finals) ain't bad.

So here's a question... Who had more to do with their victory:

Hasek (Nagano Gold medal)
Roy ('93 Stanley Cup)

Both led good (but not great... compared to the field) teams to the top of the mountain. In my opinion, it was the defining achievement for both of them.

I value NHL playoffs over International comp. I actually think Roy in 86 was the most impressive win of his career. You're talking about a 20 year old kid absolutely owning the league in crunch time. In the mid 80's when Montreal was hardly standing at the top of the mountain.

Top to bottom the NHL playoffs are filled with better players and the sample size is larger.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I value NHL playoffs over International comp. I actually think Roy in 86 was the most impressive win of his career. You're talking about a 20 year old kid absolutely owning the league in crunch time. In the mid 80's when Montreal was hardly standing at the top of the mountain.

Top to bottom the NHL playoffs are filled with better players and the sample size is larger.

Speaking of kids, I actually think that Claude Lemieux would have been a deserved Conn Smythe winner as well in '86.

The playoffs are definitely a marathon, although I think the must-wins and all-star calibre competition Hasek faced in '98 can't be understated (then again, if either Sakic or Kariya were healthy for the shoot-out, the game and eventual Gold Medal goes Canada's way).

 

[VanIslander]

Roy was famous for having an AWFUL playoff game from time to time, but he was equally renowned for his ability to bounce back and have a STELLAR game the next night. He had the mental game and competitive drive to crank his level of play up. A lot of the greats in various sports do so. Michael Jordan, Joe Montana... even Hasek. Dom wanted to face 10-15 shots early in the game. It warmed him up. He played better and better the more intense it got. I recall a game where he had only 4 shots faced in the first period and the Buffalo playbyplay announcer lamented it, trotting out stats on his effectiveness against early pressure, and clips of Dom talking about needing to get into the game. (You know the famous image of Dryden resting his chin on his stick. That ain't Dom.)

 

[quoipourquoi]

I actually think Roy in 86 was the most impressive win of his career.

I’ll take 1996 Patrick Roy - the angry, entitled villain manufacturing rivalries over every perceived slight (Tremblay, Roenick, Bowman, Sather, etc.). But it is nice that he gave us so many distinct versions to choose from.

 

[VanIslander]

Give us the 208 alphabeticalized list so we can talk about guys not on any list, and not duplicate discussions and info to come next week!

Where is Wikileaks when you need them?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Sid Abel, Syl Apps, George Armstrong, Dan Bain, Tom Barrasso, Marty Barry, Andy Bathgate, Ed Belfour, Jean Beliveau, Clint Benedict, Doug Bentley, Max Bentley, Patrice Bergeron, Rob Blake, Toe Blake, Vsevolod Bobrov, Mike Bossy, Frank Boucher, Georges Boucher, Ray Bourque, Johnny Bower, Russell Bowie, Frank Brimsek, Turk Broda, Martin Brodeur, Johnny Bucyk, Pavel Bure, Harry Cameron, Zdeno Chara, Chris Chelios, King Clancy, Dit Clapper, Bobby Clarke, Sprague Cleghorn, Paul Coffey, Charlie Conacher, Lionel Conacher, Roy Conacher, Bill Cook, Yvan Cournoyer, Bill Cowley, Sidney Crosby, Pavel Datsyuk, Alex Delvecchio, Cy Denneny, Marcel Dionne, Drew Doughty, Ken Dryden, Bill Durnan, Babe Dye, Phil Esposito, Tony Esposito, Sergei Fedorov, Viacheslav Fetisov, Anatoli Firsov, Peter Forsberg, Frank Foyston, Ron Francis, Grant Fuhr, Bill Gadsby, Bob Gainey, Charlie Gardiner, Bernie Geoffrion, Eddie Gerard, Doug Gilmour, Ebbie Goodfellow, Wayne Gretzky, George Hainsworth, Glenn Hall, Doug Harvey, Dominik Hasek, Dale Hawerchuk, Bryan Hextall, Jiri Holecek, Hap Holmes, Tim Horton, Marian Hossa, Gordie Howe, Mark Howe, Syd Howe, Bobby Hull, Brett Hull, Jarome Iginla, Busher Jackson, Jaromir Jagr, Ching Johnson, Moose Johnson, Aurele Joliat, Curtis Joseph, Patrick Kane, Paul Kariya, Erik Karlsson, Alexei Kasatonov, Duncan Keith, Red Kelly, Ted Kennedy, Dave Keon, Valeri Kharlamov, Anze Kopitar, Vladimir Krutov, Jari Kurri, Elmer Lach, Guy Lafleur, Pat LaFontaine, Newsy Lalonde, Rod Langway, Jacques Laperriere, Guy Lapointe, Igor Larionov, Brian Leetch, Hugh Lehman, Jacques Lemaire, Mario Lemieux, Nicklas Lidstrom, Eric Lindros, Ted Lindsay, Eddie Litzenberger, Hakan Loob, Henrik Lundqvist, Roberto Luongo, Al MacInnis, Mickey MacKay, Frank Mahovlich, Sergei Makarov, Evgeni Malkin, Joe Malone, Alexander Maltsev, Vladimir Martinec, Connor McDavid, Frank McGee, Mark Messier, Boris Mikhailov, Stan Mikita, Mike Modano, Dickie Moore, Howie Morenz, Vaclav Nedomansky, Scott Niedermayer, Frank Nighbor, Adam Oates, Bobby Orr, Alex Ovechkin, Bernie Parent, Brad Park, Gilbert Perreault, Vladimir Petrov, Tommy Phillips, Pierre Pilote, Jacques Plante, Frantisek Pospisil, Denis Potvin, Carey Price, Chris Pronger, Marcel Pronovost, Bill Quackenbush, Jean Ratelle, Mark Recchi, Henri Richard, Maurice Richard, Larry Robinson, Luc Robitaille, Patrick Roy, Joe Sakic, Borje Salming, Denis Savard, Serge Savard, Terry Sawchuk, Milt Schmidt, Sweeney Schriner, Earl Seibert, Teemu Selanne, Brendan Shanahan, Eddie Shore, Babe Siebert, Billy Smith, Hooley Smith, Nikolai Sologubov, Martin St. Louis, Steven Stamkos, Vyacheslav Starshinov, Peter Stastny, Scott Stevens, Jack Stewart, Nels Stewart, Hod Stuart, Jan Suchy, Mats Sundin, Cyclone Taylor, Paul Thompson, Tiny Thompson, Joe Thornton, Jonathan Toews, JC Tremblay, Vladislav Tretiak, Bryan Trottier, Sven Tumba, Norm Ullman, Valeri Vasiliev, Georges Vezina, Jack Walker, Shea Weber, Hayley Wickenheiser, Gump Worsley, Roy Worters, Alexander Yakushev, Steve Yzerman, Vladimir Zabrodsky, Henrik Zetterberg

 

[Michael Farkas]

Barrasso...didn't get far before I had to say, "that was unexpected..."


I say that as the person who put George Armstrong on his list...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Then again...


Yeah I know... it was one goal. But I loved to watch that. It's tough to choose between him and Hasek for me because I disliked both so much!

Yup, they all give up a goofball one from time to time...the one you highlighted didn't matter...Hasek's often did and they came more frequently...

I have some macro-level data that will back this that will be unleashed when appropriate...

 

[Sentinel]

He played on a defensive team in Buffalo that tried to play to his strengths...in the playoffs, he's notorious for some pretty hot garbage going through him at just brutal times...from the start, like game 3 of the 1992 Norris Division Semi-Final where he gives up a garbage goal to Garth Butcher to surrender a 3rd period lead late in what is probably Butcher's only career playoff goal and then follows up by letting Hull beat him along the ice in overtime and allowing the Blues to take the lead in the series...luckily Belfour was there to come in and shut it down and win three straight for Chicago...

All the way to the end of his time in Buffalo, with that muffin that Kasparaitis throws through his glove in Buffalo in overtime in game 7...

The advance scout on Hasek was really focused on in playoff play when it matters...that's why a lot of these unorthodox goaltenders have poorer records in the playoffs as compared to the regular season...and it's also why proper talent evaluation matters.

Hasek was an all-time great, don't get me wrong...but saying that he was a strong playoff goalie is like pissing on my leg and telling me that it's raining...

Every team tries to play to their goalie's strengths. Unlike, say, Brodeur's Devils with Stevens, Niedermeyer, and a slew of superb two-way forwards, Buffalo did not have much in the way of two-way talent, except Peca. Hasek was an all-around mess in Chicago, facing the same struggles all Eastern Block immigrants faced. Once he settled in, he became a legend. Every great goalie had his share of terribad playoff experiences: Sawchuk, Brodeur, Roy, you name it. Hasek had one legendary playoff run and a few really good one. Lemeiux had, to my count, three legendary playoff runs (including the time his team won an entire series for him). So, yeah, Hasek was a great playoff goaltender. Not on the level of Roy, but Roy lost to Hasek every time they've met. So maybe it is rain on your leg after all.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Couple of names that stick out from that group
- Curtis Joseph
- Hakan Loob
- Eddie Litzenberger
- Hayley Wickenheiser

Edit: for the record I wasn't one who put McDavid on his list

 

[BenchBrawl]

At first glance I'd pick Frank Fredrickson as the best unranked player.

 

[ResilientBeast]

At first glance I'd pick Frank Fredrickson as the best unranked player.

Him or Keats IMO