Top 100 Forwards in the NHL

[1865]

I mean, there's an argument for Kucherov to be ranked above Crosby at this point, but saying there is "no justification" for a 100-point, Selke-caliber center who has been widely considered a top 2 player in the league for the past dozen years to be ranked over an offensive winger coming off a career year on a stacked team is simply not true.

Kucherov essentially matched Crosby in 16/17
Kucherov outscored Crosby in 17/18
Kucherov outscored Crosby by a mile in 18/19

If they were the same age then sure there’s a chance but Crosby ain’t gonna improve from this point and Kucherov just scored 129 points.

There’s no argument.

 

[aufheben]

@RedWingzz Bergeron ^ top-10; drop Matthews ~10 spots; Barkov ^ 11th; Hertl & Zibanejad ^ several spots; swap Zuccarello for Kreider and put Schwartz & Lee ahead.

Certainly better than I could do, though.

 

[mattydamon]

You think that a 33 year old with his best days behind him is worth more than a 21 year old C who hasn't hit his prime yet? What about Dubas' body of work tells you he would do this? Honestly, it;s such an obscene opinion I am not even sure how to answer you.

Make a poll about it if you think it's such an easy choice. Just make sure to specify their current ages.

It's not about trade value - read the OP. It's about who is better right now. Keep shifting the dang goalposts though to fit your narrative.

 

[Kamiccolo]

It's not about trade value - read the OP. It's about who is better right now. Keep shifting the dang goalposts though to fit your narrative.

That's not what that poster said. He said Dubas would drive Matthews to the airport if ovi was offered. And in the post before that, said Ovi is worth 2 Matthews at 33.

 

[Madap]

Last two season:

Bergeron: 129GP/ 63G / 142pts

Matthews: 130GP: 71G / 136pts

Little more goals for Matthews, little more points for Bergeron.

Weird that the “far more superior” offensive player only has a few more goals and also a few less points, no?

Now add in that it’s not an argument who’s the better defensive player. Bergeron is one of the best all time, Leaf fans themselves said Matthews wasn’t great defensively last year.

Now also add in that the biggest excuse for Matthews poor playoff showing in 17/18 was that he was playing head to head against Bergeron, and please explain to me again on who’s the better player excluding potential?

Great, now do the last 3 seasons and tell me who has done better. Hint: it's Matthews. That's when he's a rookie and and playing with far worse linemates. What's weird is your cherry picking of stats to make Bergeron look like a better player than Matthews. You can cherry pick the last two seasons all you want, but the fact is that last season was a complete outlier for Bergeron. He's had a long career so far, and he is far worse at producing offensively than Matthews. Bergeron's 14+ seasons of not hitting ppg is a far bigger sample size of 1 season when he's 33 years old. He didn't all of a sudden become a better offensive player at 33. He just needed better linemates.

As for the playoffs, again you're singling out a single playoff series (7 games) and you're talking about the whole Boston line vs the whole Toronto line. Not really a strong argument.

 

[mattydamon]

That's not what that poster said. He said Dubas would drive Matthews to the airport if ovi was offered. And in the post before that, said Ovi is worth 2 Matthews at 33.

Well in that case I agree that is ludicrous - Ovi is a better forward now but AM for sure would have more trade value in a vacuum. Not that caps would ever trade Ovi.

 

[hockeyisgud]

A bit of hyperbole and joking aside, but honestly do you think the Caps trade 8 to Toronto for AM? Dubas is driving AM to the airport within minutes of that call. It would likely take Marner and Mathews to get that trade done. This list is more than scoring metrics. Defensive capability and intangibles matter in this league as well.

I have Matthews somewhere in the 30-40 range of best forwards and I would still take him over Ovi in this scenario. Ovi is much better right now but early 20s >>>>>>> mid 30s in today's game. I mean Matthews isn't terrible. He might not be the most impressive guy to watch play but he's great at scoring goals and would be a nice piece to have on a good team. He just isn't the Mcdavid/Crosby/Ovi/Mackinnon type guy that carries the play and you want to build a team around.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Great, now do the last 3 seasons and tell me who has done better. Hint: it's Matthews. That's when he's a rookie and and playing with far worse linemates. What's weird is your cherry picking of stats to make Bergeron look like a better player than Matthews. You can cherry pick the last two seasons all you want, but the fact is that last season was a complete outlier for Bergeron. He's had a long career so far, and he is far worse at producing offensively than Matthews. Bergeron's 14+ seasons of not hitting ppg is a far bigger sample size of 1 season when he's 33 years old. He didn't all of a sudden become a better offensive player at 33. He just needed better linemates.

As for the playoffs, again you're singling out a single playoff series (7 games) and you're talking about the whole Boston line vs the whole Toronto line. Not really a strong argument.

Bergeron has started to be utilized like an actual top line forward since Cassidy came on board. This isn't an aberration, it was just a ton of underutilized potential based on the role Bergeron was used in under Julien.

 

[joe dirte]

Number 1 winger on the decline? Just because someone is over the age of 30 doesn't mean they are declining just yet. That "winger on the decline" just had 100 points in 79 games lmao. The only one ancient on the Bruins roster is Chara, and they have some young defenseman to take the guard from him.

I can tell you don't like the Bruins, but their team is in a good position. This is coming from a San Jose fan who doesn't like the Bruins.

34 is also ancient for an NHL player.

Statiscally theyvstart to heavily decline at 32.

You can think differently all you like. A number of their core players will be a shadow of their former selves within a year or 2. I would bet on it.

 

[Emerz]

This idea that Bergeron is carried offensively by Pasta and Marchand is ridiculous. The passes Bergeron has been hitting Pasta with the last 2 seasons have been Backstorm-esque. Julien suppressed Bergerons offensive game for so long that he's going to need up 90+ points next season before people start respecting his vision, shot and passing.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

So why would oveckin be top 10 basically same player but Matthews is a center.

Not saying your wrong about Matthews but I feel Ovie is overrated a lot.

Ovechkin is built like a tank and stays surprisingly healthy playing a heavy style of game. Matthews is a good goal scorer, but he misses a lot of games due to injury and slows down as the season progresses and ramps up in intensity. Ovechkin is a Beast and a back to back Rocket Richard winner coming off 51 goals, he has won 5 of the last 6 Richard trophies. The hardest thing to do in the NHL is score goals and Ovechkin is head and shoulders above the rest. OV doesn’t fade in the 2nd half of the regular season and is a freight train in the playoffs.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

No /60 BS. It's just straight goals / game. Only part of Matthews not being as good of a scorer as Ovi has been health.

There's no guarantee he'd keep those goal paces up over a full 82 games. Especially last year, his pace after his hot 20 game start was actually below a point per game and below a 40 goal pace.

Sidney Crosby paced for 64 goals in 2010-11 (32 goals in 41 games before he got Steckel'd), but that doesn't mean he would have actually finished with 64 goals if he'd played all 82 games.

That's why trophies are given out for actual results, not what if results.

 

[Yackiberg8]

This idea that Bergeron is carried offensively by Pasta and Marchand is ridiculous. The passes Bergeron has been hitting Pasta with the last 2 seasons have been Backstorm-esque. Julien suppressed Bergerons offensive game for so long that he's going to need up 90+ points next season before people start respecting his vision, shot and passing.

It’s just a coincidence that the first 13 seasons of Bergeron’s career he was a 50-60 point guy and then he gets matched up on his current line and is much better offensively? His linemates have nothing to do with it. His crap coach that kept leading the team to deep playoff runs held him back.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

In a game 7 scenario who would you rather have on your team Matthews or Bergeron?

Answer: Bergeron AINEC

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It’s just a coincidence that the first 13 seasons of Bergeron’s career he was a 50-60 point guy and then he gets matched up on his current line and is much better offensively? His linemates have nothing to do with it. His crap coach that kept leading the team to deep playoff runs held him back.

He scored over 60 points 5 times prior to these past two seasons, including seasons of 73 and 70 points. He also scored 32 in 42 in the lockout season (around a 60 point pace).

I think it's a bit misleading to call him a "50-60 point guy for the first 13 seasons of his career".

 

[Trap Jesus]

It’s just a coincidence that the first 13 seasons of Bergeron’s career he was a 50-60 point guy and then he gets matched up on his current line and is much better offensively? His linemates have nothing to do with it. His crap coach that kept leading the team to deep playoff runs held him back.

There are a ton of factors at play. Not to be discounted is that Bergeron has legitimately worked on his offensive game though. His one-timers are night and day to what they used to be earlier in his career. The 2 main factors at play though:

Top-line utilization: It's not so much the ice time he got under Julien vs. Cassidy (which is essentially equal at even-strength from when Bergeron rounded back from his injury ~2010 until Julien got fired vs. Bergeron under Cassidy), it's the quality of ice time. Julien was obsessed with overloading Bergeron with defensive responsibility, defensive starts, hard-matching, etc. Cassidy on the other hand is always putting Bergeron's line out in offensive situations, gives them a ton of O-zone starts, and really doesn't care about line-matching for Bergeron. He's letting Bergeron's line dictate the play, not tasking them with shutting someone else down and letting the offense come off the counter-attack. I think you can apply this to his linemates as well. There's no question that Bergeron is aided with his numbers to some degree by his linemates, but they all do. They all just have great chemistry together. It's not like Bergeron wasn't playing with very talented linemates before when he was putting up ~60 points (Marchand and Seguin).

PP role: I don't remember when exactly they started using Bergeron in the slot position, but I do know that this was something Julien started to utilize. For such a long time, they didn't really know where to use Bergeron, and would frequently try things like putting him on the point. After they put him in the bumper role, he was so good at it that I think you can argue he's the best in the league at that specific role on the PP. He's also getting about a half-minute more on the PP. Julien-coached teams in general just aren't very good at drawing PPs though.

 

[Kotkaniemi15]

I disagree with certain parts of the list but I respect the time you put into making it. Good job.

 

[Kamiccolo]

There's no guarantee he'd keep those goal paces up over a full 82 games. Especially last year, his pace after his hot 20 game start was actually below a point per game and below a 40 goal pace.

Sidney Crosby paced for 64 goals in 2010-11 (32 goals in 41 games before he got Steckel'd), but that doesn't mean he would have actually finished with 64 goals if he'd played all 82 games.

That's why trophies are given out for actual results, not what if results.

I could buy this for a rookie but we have 3 seasons of sample size so this feels like reaching.

 

[BruinsBtn]

Last two season:

Bergeron: 129GP/ 63G / 142pts

Matthews: 130GP: 71G / 136pts

Little more goals for Matthews, little more points for Bergeron.

Weird that the “far more superior” offensive player only has a few more goals and also a few less points, no?

Now add in that it’s not an argument who’s the better defensive player. Bergeron is one of the best all time, Leaf fans themselves said Matthews wasn’t great defensively last year.

Now also add in that the biggest excuse for Matthews poor playoff showing in 17/18 was that he was playing head to head against Bergeron, and please explain to me again on who’s the better player excluding potential?

Pump this post into my veins.

Anyway who watched the past two head-to-head playoff series should know it's Bergeron and it's not close. And Bergeron was playing hurt in both series'. Matthews has a long way to go. He's a good finisher and all but he's not the same class of hockey player, unless you're talking fantasy.

 

[daver]

Kucherov essentially matched Crosby in 16/17
Kucherov outscored Crosby in 17/18
Kucherov outscored Crosby by a mile in 18/19

If they were the same age then sure there’s a chance but Crosby ain’t gonna improve from this point and Kucherov just scored 129 points.

There’s no argument.

Kucherov got an honourable mention among the league's best after the 16/17 season. Crosby was the World Cup MVP, had a great goalscoring season and another Conn Smythe.

This past season was the only one where it is really arguble to place him ahead. Of course it is not wrong to consider that Crosby has had a Gordie Howe-like level of eliteness over his 14 year career.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

There's no guarantee he'd keep those goal paces up over a full 82 games. Especially last year, his pace after his hot 20 game start was actually below a point per game and below a 40 goal pace.

Sidney Crosby paced for 64 goals in 2010-11 (32 goals in 41 games before he got Steckel'd), but that doesn't mean he would have actually finished with 64 goals if he'd played all 82 games.

That's why trophies are given out for actual results, not what if results.

So to be clear, goals are real goals. Goals per minute are pure fiction and not rooted in reality whatsoever? Using NHL trophies as the basis for your argument also isn't a great argument

 

[Madap]

Bergeron has started to be utilized like an actual top line forward since Cassidy came on board. This isn't an aberration, it was just a ton of underutilized potential based on the role Bergeron was used in under Julien.

I don't think that's true, or at the very least that's a minor reason as to why he's been more productive. Bergeron has been their best centerman for a while. While Krejci was also good and used offensively, he's had injury troubles in the past and Bergeron was their go to guy. He never put up numbers like this before. Same with Marchand.

When Cassidy came on he put the trio together and they started lighting things up. Why wouldn't he play them more in that situation? Clearly the skill for both Bergeron and Marchand was always there, but they needed Pastrnak to really let it out. They couldn't do it when it was just them two together.

Matthews proved he could do it by himself last season. I personally think that Matthews is a better player than Bergeron overall, but I won't say that it's not up for debate. However if we're talking about strictly offense, anyone who thinks Bergeron is better than Matthews is completely out to lunch.

 

[HabsMD97]

If I'm completely honest, he was #101, and I knew people would have issues with this. I based it off the last 3 years, so wha hurt him a bit was his 16/17 season.

Looking over it, Gallagher should probably be there over Tatar, but I love Tatar so thats my Red Wings bias creeping in.

Not gonna comment on where Gallagher should be placed, but he is by far the best habs forward and the fact that you have 3 habs forwards over him on this list is ridiculous. The reason he didn't have a great season in 2017 is because he broke his hand the previous season (in which he was pacing for career highs across the board before the injury) and then broke the same hand AGAIN in 2017.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

So to be clear, goals are real goals. Goals per minute are pure fiction and not rooted in reality whatsoever? Using NHL trophies as the basis for your argument also isn't a great argument

Much more difficult to score goals consistently for a long period of time battling through the wear and tear of the NHL. Improbable to keep the same goal scoring pace for a full 82 games. This is why scoring 50 goals or 100 points is celebrated. That’s why the Rocket and Art Ross matter, because they’re very difficult to win.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Don't understand how Eichel who has a higher ppg the last 3 seasons is 12 slots below Matthews. Not saying Eichel should be top 10 but he should be within 2-3 slots in either direction compared to Matthews.

I think Eichel will get more recognition this season.