Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo - Part II

[nyr2k2]

fair take.

lets just agree to disagree.

i like quinn for the most part.

for a rebuild, hes good. for young players, hes a good mentor and coach with a fresh consistent attitude. AV was a clown and i wasnt a fan at all.

quinnn methods and his treatment of ADA is my issue. his lineup decisions baffle me at times.

i think hes doing an overall good job but i disagree with benching ADA as the best way
to help him mature.

and i certainly dont agree with his pionk love. at all.

Sounds good.

He does make interesting lineup choices, but at this point, everyone we've had in my lifetime has done the same, so I've kind of just accepted it as normal. I see fans of other teams saying the same, as well.

As far as Pionk--he clearly likes the kid in terms of hustle and some other intangible elements. I can't think of any other reason why he'd play him the way he does. Still though, his usage is falling. After playing 25 minutes against Vegas, he then played 18, 20, 16, 20:30, 18, 14:30. Honestly if he wasn't playing 3 minutes per game on the PK (leads the team, crazy) then his TOI totals would actually be reasonable. If you gave Pionk like 13-15 minutes 5v5 and 1-2 minutes 5v4 I think he'd be much more effective. Pionk has skill, he's just incredibly overextended at this point.

And he just shouldn't PK. There's always been that old addage about PK being all bout will and less about skill, but Pionk proves that's not true. He's definitely willing, he just sucks at it. He runs around too much and loses positioning.

 

[offdacrossbar]

Pure conjecture based on made up beliefs. There is not a doubt in my mind that if Pionk was not here and ADA still behaved in exactly the same way that he did, he would still be sat the same amount of time. There is nothing that Quinn has said or done that would make me believe any different. You do not seem to want to come to grips with the idea that Quinn laid out the rules and DeAngelo for a long time did not follow them in the exact manner that was prescribed. You keep wanting to drum up some sort of personal agendas that were the reason that he was scratched.

i wish i knew what those things were that he did. i mean, what are the terrible transgressions ? chirping. since when is that something you bench a kid for.

kid has a bullseye on his back. whether the refs or quinn. same.

you cannot bench a player for a personality issue the same you can for a talent/effort issue.

benching him "before" he does something "detrimental to the team" is what im hearing... not buying it.

and exactly what did he do to get benched after the phily game ??

oh, wait i know, 44 was back healthy.... 44 was hurt against cbus. out 10 days or so. healthy for the philly game.

77 benched the next 2 games..... hmmmm..

 

[NYRFANMANI]

I'm just here to say that after that kind of a goal on the shootout attempt, he can baller around as much as he wants.

 

[McRanger]

Its February and Pionk leads the team in ice time despite doing little of value outside of a stretch on the power player play in late October and November so personally I find it difficult to give Quinn too much credit for making extremely obvious moves like adjusting Pionk's ice time so he's more sheltered.

As for ADA, Quinn getting accolades for "improving" him, something that we have zero way of verifying especially since he appears to be the same very talented yet dickish guy he was 2 months ago, is like the least surprising think ever. But truthfully I dont care what it is. I dont care if there really is some behind the scenes improvement or if Quinn just decided he can live with ADA's faults because of what he does on the ice. I am just glad he is playing.

 

[Kovalev27]

as much as many here don't want to admit it, this is about ADA vs pionk. it certainly is. for sure.

they are both rightys. unless quinn sits shatty- which he wont because hes the vet righty damn, then one of those 2 guys has to sit. McQuaid, when healthy, is gonna play. we know that.

so heres the real issue. alot of this tony D stuff wouldn't even be happening, the benching and scratchings, if there werent 4 righty men who needed to play. of that group of 4, ADA is the odd man out and the benching and scratchings have alot to do with that imo, as much as tonys own behavior or whatever.

kids got a short leash. doesnt take much for him to take a seat and then you have 22, 44 and 54 out there every night.

believe what you want, but with his history and his short leash, quinn is taking the easy way out here by sitting ADA even though hes the most talented kid of those 4 by alot and his production has been well documented. kid even makes 18 a better player.

if pionk werent on this team, the ADA leash is ALOT longer, he plays every night and his production does the talking over whatever maturity issues he might have. much of this isnt even an issue.

period.

i dont dislike quinn, i think hes smart, young focused guy, but i disagree with some of what hes done with ADA. hes saying the right things in his pressers and i believe he wants the best for the kid, but his methods havent been sound. I'm sorry.

and lastly, i give ZERO credit to quinn for ADA's play. none. play him and he will produce. yo-yo the kid in and out of the lineup and hell struggle. give him a sense of routine and let him get some timing and confidence and hell be money. continue to scratch him and he will struggle.

that's my take, fire away.

agree with this 100% they are both righties smaller guys similar style only one is way better than the other just isn't someone you want to bring home to mom. One of these guys is going to get the mins. so it very much is an ADA vs Pionk thing and this franchise is notorious for picking the nice guy who blocks shots over the stud.

 

[JCProdigy]

He does make interesting lineup choices, but at this point, everyone we've had in my lifetime has done the same, so I've kind of just accepted it as normal. I see fans of other teams saying the same, as well.

I've come to the conclusion a while ago, it's because we, as fans, just don't have the access to see the whole picture and probably never will. Yes we see what's on the ice, we hear interviews where everybody tries to parse what is being said, but we are not privy to the practices, we aren't in that locker room, we aren't in the trainers room, and we aren't in the coaches office when a player is confiding one-on-one with the coach. It all plays into the decisions that every team makes. Of course the above is not said to absolve front offices/coaches of their questionable decisions under some blanket. The results will bear out whether their choices were right. I just try to remain cognizant that when I state any opinions, it's coming from a place of some ignorance.

Just think if the whole Hoffman fiancee/Karlsson wife situation didn't end up going public but still was happening and the Senators still shipped off Hoffman and Karlsson. Fan reaction = WTF

 

[True Blue]

i wish i knew what those things were that he did. i mean, what are the terrible transgressions ? chirping. since when is that something you bench a kid for.

Again, conjecture. You have no idea. I have no idea. No one on this board has any idea of exactly what. But it was something. Quinn has said it. DeAngelo has said it. It has been written about. It was certainly not chirping at the other team as he did enough yapping against the Bs and Quinn seemed happy with it.

kid has a bullseye on his back. whether the refs or quinn. same.

When all else fails, the most simplistic of the absurd reasons is the only thing left to cling to.

you cannot bench a player for a personality issue the same you can for a talent/effort issue.

You most certainly can. Quinn has deemed that it was for the best of DeAngelo and for the best of the team going forward. Oddly enough, ADA is now playing the best hockey of his career. Apparently you CAN bench the prodigy and produce results.

benching him "before" he does something "detrimental to the team" is what im hearing... not buying it.

No. Quinn benched him because of what he as done, not because of what he might do.

and exactly what did he do to get benched after the phily game ??

Again, incorrect. He did not step a toe onto the ice for the second period in the Philly game. So it was something that happened during the game, not after the game.

oh, wait i know, 44 was back healthy.... 44 was hurt against cbus. out 10 days or so. healthy for the philly game.

77 benched the next 2 games..... hmmmm..

Does ignoring all of the commentary and interviews help you rationalize this conclusion?

 

[Alluckks]

I hate the whole “yeah but just let him play” mentality/comments

 

[ThirdEye]

Before we disparage Pionk and prop up DeAngelo too much, let's remember that DeAngelo has had some rough stretches this year too. Between 11/12 and 12/31 he had just 2 points in 16 games and was a -9 over that span. He's unquestionably the better player, but he can be just as much of an enigma at times. He's going to have to put in efforts like last night over a decent span before he shakes that reputation away

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Before we disparage Pionk and prop up DeAngelo too much, let's remember that DeAngelo has had some rough stretches this year too. Between 11/12 and 12/31 he had just 2 points in 16 games and was a -9 over that span. He's unquestionably the better player, but he can be just as much of an enigma at times. He's going to have to put in efforts like last night over a decent span before he shakes that reputation away

Pretty much all of Pionk’s NHL career so far has been a rough stretch

 

[True Blue]

I hate the whole “yeah but just let him play” mentality/comments

It sets a terrible example. This prodigy should be allowed to do whatever he wants. No accountability at all. What does that do to the 19, 20 year olds that are on the team or the ones that will be on the team?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

It sets a terrible example. This prodigy should be allowed to do whatever he wants. No accountability at all. What does that do to the 19, 20 year olds that are on the team or the ones that will be on the team?

This I agree with. We saw it happen with the Mets where they basically let Harvey and Syndergaard to a lesser extend do what ever the f*** they wanted...

OTOH, I think that DeAngelo's "anticts" get over analyzed and are more of people looking for something than something actually being off (See: Yesterday after he scored in the SO, more than one person here commented it on being maturity issues, when much worse happens/is said during a game.) I don't know what led to his benching, but I'll assume that Quinn's reasoning there was valid.

The attitude is great if he can use it to his advantage rather than being consumed by it.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Before we disparage Pionk and prop up DeAngelo too much, let's remember that DeAngelo has had some rough stretches this year too. Between 11/12 and 12/31 he had just 2 points in 16 games and was a -9 over that span. He's unquestionably the better player, but he can be just as much of an enigma at times. He's going to have to put in efforts like last night over a decent span before he shakes that reputation away

I’m fairly certain, (someone here...calling @Blue Blooded will verify), that even during that timeframe, DeAngelo’s underlying numbers were still better than Pionk’s. DeAngelo is the better possession player, as well as the better shot suppression player. Marc Staal’s numbers with DeAngelo, and away from Pionk are night and day. Pionk has, in his early Ranger career, been given the Dan Girardi blessing. Hopefully, Quinn is now seeing the folly of such an approach.

 

[Ghost of jas]

It sets a terrible example. This prodigy should be allowed to do whatever he wants. No accountability at all. What does that do to the 19, 20 year olds that are on the team or the ones that will be on the team?

I think his issues are likely overblown and that he just appears to be a player who needs a kick in the ass sometimes to keep him focused. I’m not absolving him, and I don’t see the harm in the odd benching right now. At some point, (and it appears it may have already happened), he needs to be accountable for his actions. But, not every young player grows up at the same time.

 

[duhmetreE]

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I’m fairly certain, (someone here...calling @Blue Blooded will verify), that even during that timeframe, DeAngelo’s underlying numbers were still better than Pionk’s. DeAngelo is the better possession player, as well as the better shot suppression player. Marc Staal’s numbers with DeAngelo, and away from Pionk are night and day. Pionk has, in his early Ranger career, been given the Dan Girardi blessing. Hopefully, Quinn is now seeing the folly of such an approach.

You don't need the stats to see that DeAngelo is better than Pionk.

DeAngelo is better at every single thing you want a defenseman to do in today's game.

I'm not shitting on Pionk either, this is just how it is and likely how it will continue to be. If it isn't then great, looks like we'll have 2 very good RHD on the team.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Ada tried playing off that move like it was the simplest thing ever

 

[Kovalev27]

not to mention remember the play he made on debrusk last night. thru a much bigger player on his ass because he's much stronger than pionk. DeAngelo isn't tall but he's thick and the kid can skate and put himself into good position to knock guys off pucks. I think his defense is very underrated and will only improve.

I implore people to look at what DeAngelo did In junior hockey. he wasn't just good he flat out clowned the league. the kid imo is a star in the making

 

[McRanger]

I think his issues are likely overblown and that he just appears to be a player who needs a kick in the ass sometimes to keep him focused. I’m not absolving him, and I don’t see the harm in the odd benching right now. At some point, (and it appears it may have already happened), he needs to be accountable for his actions. But, not every young player grows up at the same time.

Its hard to tell if ADA's issues are overblown (mainly because the situation has been kept a mostly private matter between him and Quinn) but what definitely is overblown is the concern that somehow ADA playing will have an adverse effect on other players, like being a dick or immature is something you pick up like the flu.

Even if you pretend the Andersson's and Chytil's of the world are just average people, completely ignoring that there are millions of dollars on the line for them that depend heavily on their behavior and work ethic, in what world does your average young person emulate the local f*** up in lieu of the slew of successful veterans he's surrounded by? What would that say about the veterans and more importantly what does that say about the young person?

The "wont someone think of the children!" appeal might sound good but I don't see how its grounded in reality. Especially in ADA's weird case.

 

[True Blue]

But, not every young player grows up at the same time.

Absolutely true. Oli Jokinen comes to mind.

 

[haohmaru]

I have to say, I really liked him sticking it to the B's bench in the shootout. Instant classic. I'm pulling for this guy to really put it together - he could be something.

 

[True Blue]

but what definitely is overblown is the concern that somehow ADA playing will have an adverse effect on other players, like being a dick or immature is something you pick up like the flu.

I think that is either a misrepresentation or a misunderstanding. At least from my part. It's not watching him play would have an adverse effect, it's Quinn laying down certain rules and what happens when they watch someone either not respect them or not listen to them. DeAngelo did not do what Quinn was demanding. He sat. DeAngelo did what Quinn was demanding. He plays. It's watching that is what is important.

 

[Rempe73]

You don't need the stats to see that DeAngelo is better than Pionk.

DeAngelo is better at every single thing you want a defenseman to do in today's game.

I'm not ****ting on Pionk either, this is just how it is and likely how it will continue to be. If it isn't then great, looks like we'll have 2 very good RHD on the team.

Yes, I am still a Pionk fan, but this is true.

 

[McRanger]

I think that is either a misrepresentation or a misunderstanding. At least from my part. It's not watching him play would have an adverse effect, it's Quinn laying down certain rules and what happens when they watch someone either not respect them or not listen to them. DeAngelo did not do what Quinn was demanding. He sat. DeAngelo did what Quinn was demanding. He plays. It's watching that is what is important.

Accountability is not uniform across a team. No matter what we think or wish, coaches ask differs things from different players, have different expectations and are subsequently willing to accept varying degrees of disregard for their demands depending on situations like past success and how good the player is. If ADA was Brian Leetch and put up 80 points last year, they might be having daily meetings about his behavior, but he would be playing 25 minutes a game, every game. If he was Dale Purinton, he would already be off the team.

And since the standard for every player is different I don't see why Quinn's relationship with ADA would have any effect on anyone else on the team and how they behaved or played.

I mean was there ever concern that Nik Sundstrom was going to lose his work ethic because Alex Kovalev or Luc Robitaille were floaters? Was there ever a concern that Manny Malhotra would stop being a mature young man because Marc Savard was a brat? I can't even imagine how far Messier's skate would be up a rookies behind if they complained about being held to a different standard.

Worrying that a player is affected by another players situation is something that sounds plausible but I dont think is realistic. Which is why I dont think it matters at all if Quinn is playing ADA because he is suddenly 100% compliant with his expectations or if is is because Quinn has lowered his expectations. And I dont think it will have any tangible effect on anyone else either.

 

[Levitate]

not to mention remember the play he made on debrusk last night. thru a much bigger player on his ass because he's much stronger than pionk. DeAngelo isn't tall but he's thick and the kid can skate and put himself into good position to knock guys off pucks. I think his defense is very underrated and will only improve.

I implore people to look at what DeAngelo did In junior hockey. he wasn't just good he flat out clowned the league. the kid imo is a star in the making

Funny, DeAngelo really doesn't look "thick" on the ice. He looks pretty skinny but off the ice looks solid.

At any rate I don't think he's really skilled enough to be a big star in the NHL...like top scoring style defenseman star, his shot just isn't good enough for that and you really need your shot to be a weapon as a defenseman if you're going to put up a ton of points.

But he could definitely be a very good puck moving offensive defenseman who scores quite a few points and those are valuable, so...let's hope he stays on the ice and continues to improve