Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo - Part II

[offdacrossbar]

kids cocky. arrogant. brash. mouthy. plays with an attitude. an edge. good for him.

has he cost the team ? has he gone crazy on the ice ? is he a bad team mate ? is he selfish and out of control on the ice ? does he hurt people ?

he certainly isnt tom wilson out there. WHAT DID HE DO ON THE BENCH that warranted a 2 game punishment ?

if thats not it, then why the big deal with quinn making such a mountain out of what appears to be not much there.

you got the kid having to say to larry brooks, im not as crazy as people think i am.

thanks coach quinn. ya dummy

 

[Edge]

kids cocky. arrogant. brash. mouthy. plays with an attitude. an edge. good for him.

has he cost the team ? has he gone crazy on the ice ? is he a bad team mate ? is he selfish and out of control on the ice ? does he hurt people ?

he certainly isnt tom wilson out there. WHAT DID HE DO ON THE BENCH that warranted a 2 game punishment ?

if thats not it, then why the big deal with quinn making such a mountain out of what appears to be not much there.

you got the kid having to say to larry brooks, im not as crazy as people think i am.

thanks coach quinn. ya dummy

I think even if we knew the answer, it wouldn't satisfy some people. I really don't.

But, I do think it's telling that the people closest to him, the ones who actually spend time around him, and don't just comment from afar, seem to have concerns and have made recommendations for outside assistance.

We can choose to ignore that, or we can choose to accept that it's probably not just because Tony is self-assured and the world can't handle his greatness or belief in himself.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Yeah, it really is.

Sure, maybe the old coaches part. I don't think that is true. But writers, coaches, etc. they love their character guys. I get why. I think that a majority of this stuff with ADA is overblown and if we weren't in the middle of a rebuild or if he was a forward who was out there constantly laying people out on the ice, it really wouldn't be a focal point of discussion.

 

[Miamipuck]

I think even if we knew the answer, it wouldn't satisfy some people. I really don't.

But, I do think it's telling that the people closest to him, the ones who actually spend time around him, and don't just comment from afar, seem to have concerns and have made recommendations for outside assistance.

We can choose to ignore that, or we can choose to accept that it's probably not just because Tony is self-assured and the world can't handle his greatness or belief in himself.

This is like arguing in the Boo Nieves thread, only I think that person's argument is more cogent and rational....................ok maybe not. lol

 

[nyr2k2]

I feel like this conversation is like talking to parents whose kid keeps getting into trouble and his parents want to blame the teachers, the school administration, the neighbors, their friends and everyone else who doesn't believe that maybe their kid has some growing up to do.

So let me put this out there.

What if ADA used a derogatory term and that was part of the reason for the scratch?

What if a ref came up and said to the coach, "Your boys on thin ice. Next time it's a misconduct."

Would that change anything? Or would we be more pissed that it "escaped the sanctity of the locker room"?

Because at this point, if something major came out about ADA, there's probably some people who be more upset that it got out than that ADA actually did it.

The reason I don't really participate in this thread much anymore is for exactly what you laid out in your first sentence. There is a small, very vocal, very loud minority (as seems to be the case) that are ADA's parents refusing the believe anything could be wrong or warranting correction. It doesn't matter what is reported, or what is said by Quinn, or what is said by ADA, nothing short of ADA having free reign to do what he wants while playing 20 minutes per night will allay any criticism.

 

[Miamipuck]

The reason I don't really participate in this thread much anymore is for exactly what you laid out in your first sentence. There is a small, very vocal, very loud minority (as seems to be the case) that are ADA's parents refusing the believe anything could be wrong or warranting correction. It doesn't matter what is reported, or what is said by Quinn, or what is said by ADA, nothing short of ADA having free reign to do what he wants while playing 20 minutes per night will allay any criticism.

I think that's overly optimistic, you think that puny amount would make them happy?

 

[Edge]

Sure, maybe the old coaches part. I don't think that is true. But writers, coaches, etc. they love their character guys. I get why. I think that a majority of this stuff with ADA is overblown and if we weren't in the middle of a rebuild or if he was a forward who was out there constantly laying people out on the ice, it really wouldn't be a focal point of discussion.

Personally, I agree that almost everything done by ADA or around him is overblown --- but I think that's done by posters on here, not necessarily the coaches or the writers or anyone else.

If Quinn was a guy who was used to dealing with 34 year old veteran NHL players, I think that argument might have some merit. But Quinn has spent a good portion of his career around players ADA's age and younger. I don't doubt for a minute he's dealt with brash, millennial teenagers, or players who had some growing up to do.

If anything, I think Quinn's background only gives more merit to some of the concerns expressed about ADA and only serves to nullify the points about "old" coaches not liking someone like ADA. I'd also argue that if anyone is going to get through to ADA, it's going to be someone like Quinn.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I think that's overly optimistic, you think that puny amount would make them happy?

And now the pendulum swings the other way. I am all for accountability. I have no problem with ADA being held accountable for whatever he did. But at the same time I also think it is drastically overblown due to the perception that was immediately created when we acquired him. I think if this is a different prospect with the same problems, it would be viewed a bit differently. That is my only real gripe. I am not saying ADA should be given free reign, or play 20 minutes a game. I do think he has a significantly shorter leash than other players. Is that a good or bad thing? I don't know.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Personally, I agree that almost everything done by ADA or around him is overblown --- but I think that's done by posters on here, not necessarily the coaches or the writers or anyone else.

If Quinn was a guy who was used to dealing with 34 year old veteran NHL players, I think that argument might have some merit. But Quinn has spent a good portion of his career around players ADA's age and younger. I don't doubt for a minute he'd dealt with brash, millennial teenagers, or players who had some growing up to do.

If anything, I think Quinn's background only gives more merit to some of the concerns expressed about ADA and only serves to nullify the points about "old" coaches not liking someone like ADA. I'd also argue that if anyone is going to get through to ADA, it's going to be someone like Quinn.

I absolutely agree. Like I said above, I believe if this is a different prospect with the "maturity" problems, he would be viewed differently by both our posters and writers like Larry. That is really my only gripe.

 

[Edge]

I absolutely agree. Like I said above, I believe if this is a different prospect with the "maturity" problems, he would be viewed differently by both our posters and writers like Larry. That is really my only gripe.

I go back and forth on that one.

I think there is some hesitation with ADA because his past is so well-documented. Unfortunately, that can be a little hard to escape. Having said that, it's a little harder to escape, and for people to put it in the past, when there appears to be things that keep popping up.

Maybe not to the extreme of past incidents, but they're apparently still there to some extent. Frankly, that has to be at least a little disappointing --- especially when you consider that the kid is 23 and on the older end of the first wave of younger talent.

But I guess my biggest takeaway from all of this is that the team really wants him to make it. I think they're devoting more time and attention to him because they know what the potential payoff is --- and that payoff is pretty high-end.

That last part, the payoff, I think is also a big factor as to why ADA is viewed differently. I honestly believe the Rangers see a player in the Dan Boyle circa 2002-2012 mold, both in terms of impact, and possibly in terms of personality and snarl. So when you're operating within that belief, you're going to put a lot of time and energy into trying to make that happen.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I’m not seeing a negative to how Quinn has handled DeAngelo, if DeAngelo himself is saying he understands what Quinn wants from and what he has to do. The Rangers are a better team when he’s on the ice. But, this is all part of the development of a young player, and some fans seem to think there is a cookie cutter approach to developing young players. A good coach has the ability to recognize each unique situation, and it appears Quinn has done that.

A lot of this falls into the category of ‘can fans truly sit through a rebuild’, and this situation is just another aspect. The full story has yet to be written, and it’s clear some people do not have the patience necessary for this project.

 

[nyr2k2]

I know it is a bit extreme but honestly, is it completely wrong in its premise?

I think so. Quinn is not Hitch or Boudreau, guys in their mid/late-60's. He's 52. He's 52 and he has spent 15 years behind a college bench, and number of years behind an AHL bench. I've sure he's encountered dozens of young, cocky players over his life--he's been working with kids 18-24 for a long time, at BU where a hockey player would be big man on campus, the height of cockiness. I'm sure he's used to it.

Maybe he doesn't like it, but I'm sure he knows how to deal with it. Maybe he's upset that ADA is resisting? I don't know. I don't if ADA is actively resisting or just having trouble grasping and implementing what Quinn is preaching. But I would think Quinn would be well-equipped to handle the situation, given his background.

The idea, though, that it's just "old hockey coaches" taking issue with him and "old hockey writers" cooking up stories because they're old and crotchety, I don't see it. His coaches his final year in the OHL (where he was evidently seeing a sports psychologist) were Letowski and Keefe, who are 41 and 38 now, and clearly weren't "old coaches" when they had problems with him. Sheldon Keefe of all people should be able to relate to a young, cocky player.

His AHL coaches were 46 and 50. Zettler and Lamb. Yzerman, the GM that moved him, was 49 and extremely capable in his position. Was Tippett old at 55? Is that old? IDK. John Chayka moved him and he's literally as young as you can get. These aren't a bunch of dinosaurs that have had problems with the guy. If the problems hadn't followed him from junior through today, maybe there'd be something to it. But again--he's had maturity issues everywhere, and at least three organizations had him working with a psychologist--by his own admission. That's not cooked up, or played up.

And what's Brooks to do? Everyone bitches and moans that we don't know what's going on with ADA and Quinn and then he goes and publishes the most revelatory article we've seen on the matter by a country mile. And then it's, oh, well, Brooks has an agenda as some old writer. Come the f*** on.

It just boils down to the fact that some people love the kid because of the skill that he brings and refuse to accept any rationale for not playing him. They'll just say Quinn is stupid or coaches are old and judgmental and the writers are stupid. It's all preposterous.

 

[Edge]

^^^
This.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I think so. Quinn is not Hitch or Boudreau, guys in their mid/late-60's. He's 52. He's 52 and he has spent 15 years behind a college bench, and number of years behind an AHL bench. I've sure he's encountered dozens of young, cocky players over his life--he's been working with kids 18-24 for a long time, at BU where a hockey player would be big man on campus, the height of cockiness. I'm sure he's used to it.

Maybe he doesn't like it, but I'm sure he knows how to deal with it. Maybe he's upset that ADA is resisting? I don't know. I don't if ADA is actively resisting or just having trouble grasping and implementing what Quinn is preaching. But I would think Quinn would be well-equipped to handle the situation, given his background.

The idea, though, that it's just "old hockey coaches" taking issue with him and "old hockey writers" cooking up stories because they're old and crotchety, I don't see it. His coaches his final year in the OHL (where he was evidently seeing a sports psychologist) were Letowski and Keefe, who are 41 and 38 now, and clearly weren't "old coaches" when they had problems with him. Sheldon Keefe of all people should be able to relate to a young, cocky player.

His AHL coaches were 46 and 50. Zettler and Lamb. Yzerman, the GM that moved him, was 49 and extremely capable in his position. Was Tippett old at 55? Is that old? IDK. John Chayka moved him and he's literally as young as you can get. These aren't a bunch of dinosaurs that have had problems with the guy. If the problems hadn't followed him from junior through today, maybe there'd be something to it. But again--he's had maturity issues everywhere, and at least three organizations had him working with a psychologist--by his own admission. That's not cooked up, or played up.

And what's Brooks to do? Everyone *****es and moans that we don't know what's going on with ADA and Quinn and then he goes and publishes the most revelatory article we've seen on the matter by a country mile. And then it's, oh, well, Brooks has an agenda as some old writer. Come the **** on.

It just boils down to the fact that some people love the kid because of the skill that he brings and refuse to accept any rationale for not playing him. They'll just say Quinn is stupid or coaches are old and judgmental and the writers are stupid. It's all preposterous.

No, I agree. I was a bit hasty in my first comment but later narrowed what I meant. I don't think it is old hockey coaches, to @Edge point, Quinn is a coach that is uniquely qualified to handle players like ADA.

I think ADA is constantly under a microscope for two reasons: 1. As you said, people love the kid for what he brings and refuse to accept rational for him not playing but I think there are a contingent of those who are critical of him for reasons unrelated to his play of the ice, to the point of also being irrational. 2. If we are on the upswing and not in the midst of a rebuild, I doubt he is as much of a focal point of discussion by both our posters and writers.

 

[Edge]

No, I agree. I was a bit hasty in my first comment but later narrowed what I meant. I don't think it is old hockey coaches, to @Edge point, Quinn is a coach that is uniquely qualified to handle players like ADA.

I think ADA is constantly under a microscope for two reasons: 1. As you said, people love the kid for what he brings and refuse to accept rational for him not playing but I think there are a contingent of those who are critical of him for reasons unrelated to his play of the ice, to the point of also being irrational. 2. If we are on the upswing and not in the midst of a rebuild, I doubt he is as much of a focal point of discussion by both our posters and writers.

Personally, I hope and want ADA to make it. If he does, he's a hell of a unique player to have --- especially on the right side.

I'd just prefer to keep the discussions concerning him confined to more tangible, focused conversations and not overlook the fact that Tony is a work in progress in certain areas.

 

[BklynTerp]

Is DeAngelo the most underrated aspect of this rebuild?

The outlook on D takes a massive shift if he is able to take care of what he needs to take care of and play close to his ceiling.

 

[Edge]

Is DeAngelo the most underrated aspect of this rebuild?

The outlook on D takes a massive shift if he is able to take care of what he needs to take care of and play close to his ceiling.

Potentially, yes.

There was also a mindset that ADA was a throw-in during the Arizona deal and that's false. He was a sought-after component by the Rangers, and based on what we've seen, his long-term success is something that is very much on their radar.

 

[Miamipuck]

No, I agree. I was a bit hasty in my first comment but later narrowed what I meant. I don't think it is old hockey coaches, to @Edge point, Quinn is a coach that is uniquely qualified to handle players like ADA.

I think ADA is constantly under a microscope for two reasons: 1. As you said, people love the kid for what he brings and refuse to accept rational for him not playing but I think there are a contingent of those who are critical of him for reasons unrelated to his play of the ice, to the point of also being irrational. 2. If we are on the upswing and not in the midst of a rebuild, I doubt he is as much of a focal point of discussion by both our posters and writers.

You quoted my obvious sarcastic post. I haven't criticized ADA's off ice stuff as I have no earthly idea what he has done. I am simply saying what NY2k2 has stated, much better than I. He's had these problems since JR's. They're more than likely real and not imagined. So you can bury your head in the sand or meet ADA's problems head on. From the outside looking in, Quinn is meeting them head on and not only that, he's communicating in a very clear manner with ADA the expectations and such going forward.

You can't really ask for more out of a coach that was brought in to be a developmental coach. It's not a "power" trip like some of the LOL'tastic posts above suggest, it was done with long term in mind. That's in the spirit of the letter Gorton sent last year. We should expect this type of thing for players not meeting certain expectations based on their history. To some, it comes out of left field and is anathema to them. It's like getting mad because there's traffic at exit 37, when the sign at exit 42, 5 exits earlier, told you there's an accident there and that's exactly what happened.

See if this anecdote makes sense:
My former business partner used to get mad at a customer all the time because she never answered IM questions, like ever. I used to sit back and laugh, not because he was the most miserable bastard I ever met and should burn in hell because he made my work life, really life in general totally unbearable....sorry lol I digress..........no because he knew, absolutely knew that the client never answered questions via any form other than a phone call yet he would get mad when said customer did exactly what he knew she was going to do.

My point: we all know this is/was a developmental year, with a developmental coach, we were outright told as much. That is exactly what we're getting and still people are angry. That dovetails with ADA's history. His history is exactly what's playing out, only the Rangers aren't doing it punitively. Well I don't think sitting him and communicating how and why amounts to punitive punishment, I think it's the opposite. It was done as a teaching moment kind of thing.

 

[Inferno]

I'm not sure there's any questioning that DeAngelo has looked better and better and better every time he plays.

Many ppl are saying that's because he's so awesome...but could it be that quinns message is getting thru in fits and starts...and when it waivers...he resets and starts over.

I think DeAngelo looks tremendoua when he plays.


Giving credit to Quinn for that personally.

 

[Rempe73]

What if ADA used a derogatory term and that was part of the reason for the scratch?

What if a ref came up and said to the coach, "Your boys on thin ice. Next time it's a misconduct."

But that’s just a hypothetical. I think if he used a derogatory word, it would have come out by now.

 

[Edge]

But that’s just a hypothetical. I think if he used a derogatory word, it would have come out by now.

You're right it is. As is everything we're hearing about personal agendas, favoritism and other assertions.

The point wasn't what he said, so much as that whatever it was, it was enough for him to sit and that we have to be careful about how far we go in defending what we don't know.

As for whether it would've come out, we don't necessarily know that for sure either.

If people only knew half the stuff that came out of Avery's mouth...

 

[True Blue]

Giving credit to Quinn for that personally.

You can't. Quinn hates talented players and has an agenda against them.

 

[nyr2k2]

You're right it is. As is everything we're having about personal agendas, favoritism and other assertions.

The point wasn't what he said, so much as that whatever it was, it was enough for him to sit and that we have to be careful about how far we go in defending what we don't know.

As for whether it would've come out, we don't necessarily know that for sure either.

If people only knew half the stuff that came out of Avery's mouth...

On the "stuff getting out" angle--I don't know why people always assume everything comes out. The Flyers, when they had Hartnell, Richards, Carter, Coburn, Briere, etc., there was A LOT of stuff going on there. Some of it came out, but not really until after Hartnell's divorce, and even then what is in the public sphere is just a portion of what went down in Philly. I bring this up because I know about this particular situation pretty well; I'm sure there are tons of other similar things, the details of which are maybe not as sordid and lurid, that have happened in the past few years that we will never, ever know about. And this goes back for as long as the game has been played. Teams are actually remarkably good at keeping a lid on this stuff.

So a guy making an obscene comment that didn't result in a suspension, fine, or even a penalty? No, I would actually not expect that to "get out" at all, really.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

ADA needs to find a happy medium with his edginess. You should never run your mouth to a ref - that's just straight up stupid. But I'm all for him chirping at the opposition. This team lacks emotion. Look at a player like Buch. When he's pissed he plays a completely different game.

We've had a team full of gentlemen for ages. Embrace what the kid brings, just as long as he's not going overboard or hurting the team.

 

[Trxjw]

I fully support the tough love approach the team is taking with DeAngelo. We can speculate and complain all day long but there's no denying that the on-ice product had improved this season and it's a fair assumption that it's in large part due to Quinn.

The Rangers clearly see him as a guy they can mold, and if he comes around he's a hell of a player to have in your stable.