Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo - Part II

[McRanger]

I don't know how old you are or what your background or upbringing was...

I am 45 and I am NOT the same person I was at 24, or 34 for that matter.

These guys play for a LOT of money and are asked at times to grow up a bit quicker than normal folks may be forced to do. They are the image of the team and league to fans and press and are a part of a team that has some very wealthy and respectable people on it and in charge of it. HOF even. Top of their profession without a doubt.

Some may say it's unfair, but it's understood and it's big business. Grow up or go to you're 4th team or just find another line of work. Firm, but fair.

I didn't mean he would literally be the same person, always. But I dont think a persons demeanor or work ethic really changes unless something drastic happens. And I doubt ADA has the time to have a life changing experience in the next few months.

I mean honestly, if he doesn't already realize he may be playing his way out of the NHL than he is too stupid to ever realize it.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

You get to play hockey, for the Rangers, an hour and a half from where you grew up, and make bank. All you have to do is, don't be a jerk. How freaking hard can that be?

 

[LORDE]

I didn't mean he would literally be the same person, always. But I dont think a persons demeanor or work ethic really changes unless something drastic happens. And I doubt ADA has the time to have a life changing experience in the next few months.

I mean honestly, if he doesn't already realize he may be playing his way out of the NHL than he is too stupid to ever realize it.

I agree. That being said, the coach(es) are trying with him.

Ball is in his court but again, "development" is the key this year, and probably at least next year also. Not whether or not putting him in helps his team on any given night.

The NYR have a vested interest in him for sure. Sometimes it takes a bit for a 24 year old to have the lights come on where he/she thinks "OHHHHHHH, now I get it"

 

[DanielBrassard]

I don't have much of an issue scratching a guy because of maturity issues or if his on-ice antics might be negatively affecting the team. I have much more of an issue when the coach scratches ADA because of his on-ice performance when much worse players continue to play seemingly regardless of what happens when they are out on the ice.

Hopefully for ADA and the Rangers sake this shit gets fixed because not having him in the lineup makes this team worse. Not just for this season either.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

“It was a maturity issue,” Quinn told The Post. “He and I have talked about it and are working on it. He’s too good to let maturity issues get in the way of him becoming the kind of player that he can be.
“It’s something he’s got to work on and it’s something we’ve got to help him with.”

This makes it sound like 'partying' problems.

Was he partying on the bench at the beginning of the second period?

All signs point more to DeAngelo just sort of being a dickish person.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I don't know how old you are or what your background or upbringing was...

I am 45 and I am NOT the same person I was at 24, or 34 for that matter.

These guys play for a LOT of money and are asked at times to grow up a bit quicker than normal folks may be forced to do. They are the image of the team and league to fans and press and are a part of a team that has some very wealthy and respectable people on it and in charge of it. HOF even. Top of their profession without a doubt.

Some may say it's unfair, but it's understood and it's big business. Grow up or go to you're 4th team or just find another line of work. Firm, but fair.

I was a dipshit in my 20's. I am now 36 married with a kid and almost an entirely different person.

This all said, I know for a fact I would've matured a lot faster if my friggin NHL career was slipping away.

 

[McRanger]

Gotta be honest, and I don't know if I am speaking for others or just myself, but I'm actually more confused than anything else with the responses of a handful of people.

Like I am legitimately struggling to see what is so confusing or concerning or unheard of or not clear about any of this.

I don't think there's so much a passion against their argument, so much as there is a decent level of bewilderment.

I don't fully understand WHY we disagree, if that makes any sense.

Its confusing because we dont know specifically what the situation is or how serious it is. It's... "something". Now it's "something" about maturity which is more specific but not much. Its also confusing because unlike most situations there is not an easily definable problem on the ice. Somehow the problem is big enough to have ADA go from the top pair to press box overnight but is not big enough for him to be waived or for it to leak out. I mean it took us about 5 minutes to hear about JT Miller excessive playing of flip cup in Hartford but this is shrouded in mystery? So yes, its confusing.

Its concerning because the Rangers have chronically had problems distinguishing good players from bad players. This really has little to do with ADA and more to do with everything else. Its concerning because at some point the Rangers need to sit struggling players even if they have great attitudes and give all the right answers because how players actually perform in games needs to be a priority. So yes, even though its not really related to ADA, its concerning.

Its not unheard of, I guess, though I personally struggle to think up a situation similar. "Its common for young players to get scratched" is a nice blanket explanation but most of those situations are because of problems on the ice and the most of the rest are either public knowledge or they are handled quickly. Its February and this is still going on. It may not be unheard of, but its definitely not common.

Anyway, I get why people don't think this is a big deal (I mean this is Anthony Deangelo we are discussing, not Henrik Lundqvist circa 2007 or Brian Leetch circa 1992) but I definitively am surprised more people don't think the whole situation is bizarre.

 

[McRanger]

I was a dip**** in my 20's. I am now 36 married with a kid and almost an entirely different person.

This all said, I know for a fact I would've matured a lot faster if my friggin NHL career was slipping away.

You're still wasting your time discussing stuff with me on HF. Are you completely confident your not still a dip****?

No but seriously in my experience you can change your behavior but the core person you are doesn't really change much. If you are a massive dick at 22 there is a decent chance you are one at 36. Just because a person settles down and is a responsible parent and has put their past of juggling women and running out on bar tabs behind them doesn't mean they aren't still a tremendously taxing person to deal with.

I just had my 20th HS reunion and the amount of people who were completely different and yet completely the same was staggering.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

You're still wasting your time discussing stuff with me on HF. Are you completely confident your not still a dip****?

No but seriously in my experience you can change your behavior but the core person you are doesn't really change much. If you are a massive dick at 22 there is a decent chance you are one at 36. Just because a person settles down and is a responsible parent and has put their past of juggling women and running out on bar tabs behind them doesn't mean they aren't still a tremendously taxing person to deal with.

I just had my 20th HS reunion and the amount of people who were completely different and yet completely the same was staggering.

Now I’m an internet dipshit killing time with you fine people on an Lirr commute instead of debasing the lower east side until all hours of the night.

I agree that the core of people don’t change, but dear lord it’s difficult for me to imagine a young talented player pissing his NHL career away can’t suppress whatever immaturity is his first instinct. That’s extraordinarily stupid and something DeAngelo will regret for the rest of his life if it isn’t fixed soon.

And while I have zero problem with Quinn’s treatment of him and demands to instate a culture of hard work and discipline, I totally agree that the benchings/scratches need to be more equitable across players who are sucking on the ice. It’s just not very clear what sort of mandate Quinn is under. Is he getting a message from upper management that hard work and attitude are paramount? Because it’s gonna be a looong rebuild if pure talent isn’t at least a part of that equation.

But, to be fair to him, being the best defenseman on this squad is a pretty low bar to climb. DeAngelo doesn’t look like a superstar in the making and we will probably never know to what extent of a dickhead he really is. The juice may just not be worth the squeeze long term

 

[Machinehead]

What happened to "maturity issues" when Pionk started a fight for no reason at all up 3-0 and we lost that game 4-3?

 

[JCProdigy]

imagine a guy like phil kessel on this team. how long before hes in the quinn bin?
.......
but quinn would healthy scratch him im sure.

Why the Penguins are happy to let Phil Kessel be Phil Kessel - Sportsnet

Um...err...Yep what would happen if Quinn coached Phil Kessel....oh yeah he did:

David Quinn has coached Phil Kessel with the United States Developmental Program as well as in several tournaments, including the 2004 World U17 Hockey Challenge, the 2005 IIHF World Junior Championship, and the 2007 IIHF World Championship (Along with his current coach Mike Sullivan).

From a 2011 article when Kessel was a Leaf (please read) Phil Kessel: The Leafs' silent star:

David Quinn can't help but chuckle when he pictures Phil Kessel in Toronto.

His former junior coach remembers Kessel as an implausibly shy 16-year-old who dominated on the ice yet was always at a loss for words when asked to talk about his play.

"I would imagine he's uncomfortable," said Quinn, who coached Kessel with the U.S. development program, the world juniors and world championship.
"Hands in his pocket, looking down at his feet."
"The last thing he wants to do is talk to 40 people standing around with microphones. He'd rather go out and play video games and eat Skittles."

At 15, he joined Quinn as one of the youngest players with the U.S. national development program in Ann Arbor, Mich.

"I don't think it took him too long to realize he was going to be the best player in the national program," Quinn said.

The trick, however, was to get Kessel to venture into the defensive end of the rink. Quinn remembers one key game at the under-17 world championship where, after scoring two highlight-reel goals, Kessel failed to back-check and gifted the opposition with a scoring chance. The next day, he told the talented teen that he needed to play harder at both ends of the ice – a conversation that a succession of coaches would have with him.
"A guy beat him up ice – nobody should ever beat Phil Kessel up ice the way he skates – just because it wasn't that important to him," Quinn said. "I said to him 'You need to be a well-rounded player.'
"He looked at me with this bewildered look and said 'Well I'll just go out and get another goal.' "

And while it's taken more than five years since he was drafted, Kessel is beginning to make that transformation happen. Now in his third season under coach Ron Wilson, he has improved defensively, turning in more nights as that well-rounded player Quinn had encouraged.

Quinn isn't surprised to see Kessel make good on the talent that was always there.
"I think all young players need to overcome their personalities," he said. "I deal with that every day at the American League level. Some guys just grow up later than others."

How did Kessel do under Quinn? Oh you know he set the NTDP record for goals and points. Amazing how he did that from the bench

Oh and Mike Sullivan (One of David Quinn's close friends, former teammate and coachmate), even in that article you posted said this:

Mike Sullivan will admit “it hasn’t always been apple pie and ice cream” in his discussions with Kessel. " “But what I’ve really grown to respect about Phil is his honesty and his care for this team and helping this team win,” “You only have to look to the last two Stanley Cup runs to know that Phil Kessel is at his best when the stakes are high,” Sullivan says. “And that’s one of the reasons why he’s on this team.”

Here's something from another article on Mike Sullivan Penguins coach Mike Sullivan on winning, and losing | Bostonia:

The coach demands the same intensity of his players. Even star players like team captain Sidney Crosby and right winger Phil Kessel are required to block shots, win face-offs, battle for the puck, and hurry back to help in the defensive zone—back-checking in hockey parlance.
Such thankless jobs often go unnoticed, but Sullivan knows firsthand that they’re crucial to tipping the balance of a game. And players who aren’t measuring up are called on it. “He’s very honest. He doesn’t yell, he just tells you: I need you to win this battle in the corner or to get a box out on this play,” says Penguins defenseman Ian Cole. “He’ll tell you whether you’re a fourth line winger or an all-star.”
That honesty has earned him respect among his players, despite a sometimes less than reverential attitude toward his Boston accent. “Sometimes I hear them imitating me,” Sullivan says. “They don’t know I’m listening.”

Boy that sounds a lot like what I've read about Quinn. What did Phil Kessel's current coach say about Quinn? Quinn will be success as Rangers coach, Sullivan says

Sullivan said he believes his friend has the chops to make it. He said Quinn's best quality is his ability to communicate with his players.
"He will build relationships and I think that's how you get the most out of players," Sullivan said. "Don't get me wrong, he's got a good command of the Xs and Os and he'll be a prepared guy … but if you ask me what I think his biggest strengths is, it's building relationships."

Oh and the other guy that gets crap around here about the "Skill Vs. Effort" debate, Jeff Gorton. He was only in charge of ONE draft as the interim GM of the Boston Bruins. I wonder who he took with that 5th overall pick in 2006? Oh yeah, Phil Kessel...

 

[True Blue]

I have much more of an issue when the coach scratches ADA because of his on-ice performance when much worse players continue to play seemingly regardless of what happens when they are out on the ice.

I think that this can get scratched off the list

 

[True Blue]

What happened to "maturity issues" when Pionk started a fight for no reason at all up 3-0 and we lost that game 4-3?

You are talking about a one off as opposed to something that is consistently recurring

 

[Ori]

What happened to "maturity issues" when Pionk started a fight for no reason at all up 3-0 and we lost that game 4-3?

I remember that game the other team used the momentum against us so we end up losing it.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

We saw that same approach under AV, he too benched ADA, played Glass and such.

We saw it with Torts, Zherdev, Wolski

Partially that is the reasoning I am not very enthused about this "culture" building exercise. Every previous attempt just ended with lesser talented players playing more so than anyone really turning it around.

Neither AV nor Torts had spent the last chunk of their lives specifically coaching kids straight out of high school, building them into men.

Both coaches were guys that knew how to push professionals, I daresay even coast on them. Both could also bring up a young player with the help of the team but they never demonstrated an ability to be the primary reason for a young player fully blossoming. I think both guys have to lean TOO heavily on the team to do the work for them. Maybe that works more if you're a great coach. I think both were infested with warts

Your point is important but it's just as important to make a note of why it's very different in this case

You are talking about a one off as opposed to something that is consistently recurring

Great point. Consistently I see small samples being used to justify arguments that would require very large sample sizes. I call this "The Webzuc effect" or "The boobern effect"

 

[NYRFAN218]

I like Tony DeAngelo the player but it's clear as day he hasn't grown up or matured in any capacity. You lose the benefit of the doubt when you have some sort of maturity issue with pretty much every single team you've ever played on.

 

[Rongomania]

I like Tony DeAngelo the player but it's clear as day he hasn't grown up or matured in any capacity. You lose the benefit of the doubt when you have some sort of maturity issue with pretty much every single team you've ever played on.

When is this TDA narrative going to stop? Honestly, I see a coach giving a player he sees as a key piece long term a huge, season long lesson learning experience . Whether or not it looks bad to us doesn’t matter. And if that is what’s going on, I think we see a helluva hockey player emerge next season and beyond.

 

[NYRFAN218]

When is this TDA narrative going to stop? Honestly, I see a coach giving a player he sees as a key piece long term a huge, season long lesson learning experience . Whether or not it looks bad to us doesn’t matter. And if that is what’s going on, I think we see a helluva hockey player emerge next season and beyond.

It'll stop when DeAngelo stops having issues on every single team he goes to. Maybe this latest message finally resonates with him but again, I'm not going out of my way to defend him when he's shown little to no ability to change from juniors until now. This isn't a case like Buchnevich where there's more ambiguity to his situation in whether it's on ice play, practice play, off ice tone, etc.

 

[Kovalev27]

You know what’s a sign of immaturity? Having never learned how to defend a 2 on 1 when you’re a defenseman. Pionk always looks like it’s the first time he’s ever had to defend in that situation. That bothers me more than yelling at a ref from the bench or whatever it was ADA did this time for Quinn to have an excuse to pressbox him

 

[Machinehead]

You are talking about a one off as opposed to something that is consistently recurring

McLeod's immaturity is constantly recurring.

 

[Machinehead]

And regardless, they just think Pionk is a better player. Look at the f***ing minutes.

 

[Kovalev27]

And regardless, they just think Pionk is a better player. Look at the ****ing minutes.

Which he isn’t and it’s not even close. Every metric says otherwise. So so strange.

 

[Machinehead]

Which he isn’t and it’s not even close. Every metric says otherwise. So so strange.

And now everyone is gonna make this about maturity issues when they've just thought Pionk is better from day 1.

 

[will1066]

What happened to "maturity issues" when Pionk started a fight for no reason at all up 3-0 and we lost that game 4-3?

That's just bad hockey IQ. Nothing to do with maturity. I'm sure Pionk is a saint off-ice, which is why he's so endearing to the FO.

 

[Ori]

wow the debate continue for sure - I was hoping he was playing tonight against Tampa.



- They are working on something for sure with Tony and questions from journalist is like stuff, so who knows what that mean.

It`s hard to get involved in this debate without too much speculation what stuff really is so I will avoid that. But the coach said it was not long term so - we will probably see him soon on the ice again.