Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo - Part II

[LORDE]

It's not just Quinn. They were both in out of the lineup with AV, as well.

Completely agree. Meaning that multiple coaches have told these kids what is expected and they still haven't made the adjustment.

 

[Edge]

I agree completely that is his intention.

The question is what happens if those players never become the "best version" of themselves while the inferior version is still superior to the alternatives? What is Quinn's responsibility in that case?

Does he prioritize playing his best players or building a culture? Can he even give them ice time just to showcase them or will that go against his message of accountability?

Honestly, I don't know and I'll be curious to find out.

But I think right now his priority is to build a culture and set a tone. I think he wants to lay a foundation that everything is built upon, and have players who reflect that and instill that mindset in other guys as they come on board.

The reality is that I don't think its a terribly foreign concept. I just think it's been so long since we saw this approach that it's jarring for some.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

The people losing their minds when DeAngelo gets scratched have completely lost site of the bigger picture, especially considering this iteration of the Rangers is competing most for the #1 pick and not a Stanley Cup.

My biggest problem with the level of whining were seeing on this issue

 

[Harbour Dog]

I fully believe that ADA is our best or second best defenseman, but I'm okay with Quinn's explanation in this case (and ecstatic with his transparency).

This reminds me of early in the season when Quinn had told Names to go serve a TMM penalty and got an eye roll and "you've got to be f***ing kidding me" or some approximation in response. Obviously he scratched him next game.

Quinn was brought in primarily to be a developmental coach and a big part of a player's development is emotional maturity. We obviously don't know how egregious ADA's actions were, but I'll definitely take some solace in knowing that Quinn never scratched him because he thinks he was dressing his six best defenders.

 

[JCProdigy]

your preachiness is tiresome yours is the only opinion that matters ? i respect your opinion and agree with you often but here you have fallen into a trap of name calling and judging. you need to step back.

there are many here who dont agree with your take or quinns methods. imagine that.

im sorry, not buying the quinn love at all. i am disagreeing with his tactics and methods of favoritism and playing lesser talented players more and specifically, ADA sitting when pionk returns healthy. where's there accountability there ?

ADA gives his all every shift. kids engaged, physical, emotional and plays hard non stop. his performance on the ice is as good or better than any other dman. i haven't read one thing to tell me hes a bad teammate. larrys article detailed that and supports my belief.

ADA's metrics support his overall play as stellar. kid has a defense leading +4. thats saying something with this tire fire D.

and lastly, maybe quinn should try to get pionk to be the "best version of him he can be" or whatever that means because this version of "neal pionk being neal pionk" isnt very good.

i want a winning team not a team that tries hard with good intentions and loses.

Pot and kettle and all that....

The "preachiness" is in response to some posters' hot takes with no substantive points to back them up. For example at least your post is of not of that variety as you state your position and give your reasoning.

So saying all you've said about ADA and his on-ice performance (which I agree with), Quinn still felt the need to bench him even though he intimated that he's aware how talented ADA is (Intimated the same with Buch btw). Logically thinking, why would Quinn do that?!?!

1) He's playing favorites and he just doesn't like ADA personally and wants to adopt Pionk.
2) You dismiss his intimations and he doesn't realize how good ADA is and therefore sits him because he believes ADA is actually only the 6th-7th best defenseman on the team.
3) He's trying to correct bad habits ADA is having (within the group) because, in Quinn's experience as a professional athlete and coach, he's seen that submarine talented players careers.

Some people feel a combo of one and two and others feel it's three. We're all ignorant to the whole picture and it's frustrating when people play off their opinions as that isn't the case. Sometimes I feel it's related to the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

 

[Edge]

your preachiness is tiresome yours is the only opinion that matters ? i respect your opinion and agree with you often but here you have fallen into a trap of name calling and judging. you need to step back.

I'm not sure what name-calling I used? What is the self-proclaimed genius line? I did point out that there are some people who do almost nothing but complain. That's factually backed up by their posts. And like others, I can agree to disagree if the opinion is based on fact. But that's harder to do when people go over the top and just start throwing anything and everything out there to see if it sticks.

Where some people get pushback is when they go over the top with stuff. If someone thinks Quinn is too hard on ADA, or that he needs to just play him and live with certain things, that's fine.

But there's a tendency to embellish. Simply saying that isn't enough and there's an effort to make things more dramatic with some posters.

For example, when someone generally agrees with Quinn it's a "love affair" or "Blind faith" as opposed to simply agreeing with more of his decisions than not.

And as the season wears on, there's a tendency for some posters to keep taking it up a notch. There are people who never used to post like they have this year. They've almost become caricatures of themselves.

We've always had hot takes, and some posters are notorious for them. But this year they've gone nuclear.

there are many here who dont agree with your take or quinns methods. imagine that.
im sorry, not buying the quinn love at all. i am disagreeing with his tactics and methods of favoritism and playing lesser talented players more and specifically, ADA sitting when pionk returns healthy. where's there accountability there ?

Many is probably a stretch based on the posts and responses. I'd say there are 20-30 percent who don't like what they see. I think those same 20-30 percent probably haven't liked most decisions, by most coaches during their time here. That tends to indicate a general state of opposition, rather than being coach-specific. Because we've literally had coaches that couldn't be further apart in personalities over the years. So at some point, if they're all wrong, than who is right?

As for your disagreement. The ADA thing has been indicated as not being about talent. And the other problem with the disagreement is that is never seems to address any of the challenges to its premise. Ever. It completely ignores any questions that are raised and have been repeatedly asked.

I don't think anyone has ever denied ADA is talented. I think Quinn's comments completely back that up.

ADA gives his all every shift. kids engaged, physical, emotional and plays hard non stop. his performance on the ice is as good or better than any other dman. i haven't read one thing to tell me hes a bad teammate. larrys article detailed that and supports my belief.

Your belief also completely ignores the fact that Quinn has outlined what he's asking from ADA. Which isn't really a mystery or unattainable ask. It's not different than what he's asked of a guy like Chytil for example.

So let me ask you this, what is it that so unreasonable about Quinn's expectations for ADA? Other than the fact that you really like him, I'm curious as to what you think is an unfair expectation?

i want a winning team not a team that tries hard with good intentions and loses.

And what exactly is that based on?

Are skill players like Zibanejad or Chytil or Kreider being benched or called out regularly?

Yes or no?

 

[Off Sides]

Honestly, I don't know and I'll be curious to find out.

But I think right now his priority is to build a culture and set a tone. I think he wants to lay a foundation that everything is built upon, and have players who reflect that and instill that mindset in other guys as they come on board.

The reality is that I don't think its a terribly foreign concept. I just think it's been so long since we saw this approach that it's jarring for some.

We saw that same approach under AV, he too benched ADA, played Glass and such.

We saw it with Torts, Zherdev, Wolski

Partially that is the reasoning I am not very enthused about this "culture" building exercise. Every previous attempt just ended with lesser talented players playing more so than anyone really turning it around.

 

[Miamipuck]

I don't know if Quinn is a good or bad coach, you can't tell that in little over 1/2 half of a season. I can gleam from anecdotal evidence he's a good or effective communicator, which is more than half the battle.

It seems like every single player he has benched, either a single incident or multiple times has been clearly told why and clearly told what that specific player has to do so it doesn't happen again. This isn't AV chewing gum and being above talking to the players, which from many accounts is what happened. I think more often than not, the benched players have come back and played better and have not pouted. That's what tends to happen when a player is given clear and specific instructions on what they did wrong and how they can fix it to get back in the lineup and stay there.

To dovetail this to ADA, I think he's been arguably the best defenseman on the team the last 10 games or so. At the very least, he's been at least top 3 for longer. Obviously, I don't want him out of the lineup the Rangers are undeniably a much better team when he's playing.

That said, if he's doing something stupid to hurt his chances of playing, that's on him. To this point, I don't think Quinn's benchings are vindictive and or without reason. They so far are teaching points to the players. If that's what they are, given the evidence and comments from the players, Quinn and his staff, than I am ok with it. This is a rebuilding year and Quinn was brought in to be more of a developmental coach to coincide with the rebuild and the influx of young players associated with it.

If the benchings are vindictive and without substance than yeah I have a major problem with them and Quinn as a coach. I am not seeing evidence of that. ADA will have to fix his issues and I am sure if and when he does, watching from the stands will not be an issue ever again.

 

[Edge]

We saw that same approach under AV, he too benched ADA, played Glass and such.

We saw it with Torts, Zherdev, Wolski

Partially that is the reasoning I am not very enthused about this "culture" building exercise. Every previous attempt just ended with lesser talented players playing more so than anyone really turning it around.

But here's the thing, ADA isn't the lone rookie or young talent on this roster. He's one of several, and he'll be one of several more next year, and the year after.

That, in and of itself, is different than most teams this organization has iced over the last several decades.

So if ADA is doing something or saying something, there are several other young players, in some cases younger, who are looking to see how the coach responds. ADA's talent is not a question mark. It's the components that surround that talent that seem to keep raising questions wherever he goes.

We have two young guys on the roster right now who have talent, but who've raised questions about other aspects of their game. For me, it's not terribly surprising that they now happen to be the two guys who seem to be getting more the "ire" in this case.

But if we're going to use the lesser talent argument, than we can't ignore the increased responsibility of other guys who are considered better talents. It doesn't really work that way.

I think Quinn wants to play ADA. If anything, I'd probably argue he's just as frustrated by the stupid things.

 

[Edge]

I don't know if Quinn is a good or bad coach, you can't tell that in little over 1/2 half of a season. I can gleam from anecdotal evidence he's a good or effective communicator, which is more than half the battle.

It seems like every single player he has benched, either a single incident or multiple times has been clearly told why and clearly told what that specific player has to do so it doesn't happen again. This isn't AV chewing gum and being above talking to the players, which from many accounts is what happened. I think more often than not the benched players have come back and played better and have not pouted.

To dovetail this to ADA, I think he's been arguably the best defenseman on the team the last 10 games or so. At the very least, he's been at least top 3 for longer. Obviously, I don't want him out of the lineup the Rangers are undeniably a much better team when he's playing.

That said, if he's doing something stupid to hurt his chances of playing, that's on him. To this point, I don't think Quinn's benchings are vindictive and or without reason. They so far are teaching points to the players. If that's what they are, given the evidence and comments from the players, Quinn and his staff, than I am ok with it. This is a rebuilding year and Quinn was brought in to be more of a developmental coach to coincide with the rebuild and the influx of young players associated with it.

If the benchings are vindictive and without substance than yeah I have a major problem with them and Quinn as a coach. I am not seeing evidence of that. ADA will have to fix his issues and I am sure if and when he does, watching from the stands will not be an issue ever again.

And that's the thing, Quinn is generally acknowledged as a guy who doesn't beat around the bush. It's fairly reasonable to believe that ADA knows what is being asked of him.

He'll let his talent go out there and do their thing --- Zibanejad, Chytil, Kreider, etc. But clearly he has certain expectations before that happens.

Most guys seem to have gotten it. Some guys are still struggling with it.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

My biggest problem with the level of whining were seeing on this issue

The scapegoating of a coach is a huge problem around here, and it seems to dominate the discussion. There are ALWAYS going to be players on a roster that, for whatever reason, teeter in and out of the lineup. I'm really not sure why the conversation here seems to filter down the lineup to those guys, and blasting of the coach ensues -- ESPECIALLY with a guy like Quinn only being on the job a few months. Are these people intentionally ignoring the great seasons that guys like Zibanejad, Hayes, and Kreider are having? Is that being purposely overlooked so people can hammer Quinn over Buchnevich and DeAngelo? The whole thing is sort of sad.

 

[Miamipuck]

And that's the thing, Quinn is generally acknowledged as a guy who doesn't beat around the bush. It's fairly reasonable to believe that ADA knows what is being asked of him.

He'll let his talent go out there and do their thing --- Zibanejad, Chytil, Kreider, etc. But clearly he has certain expectations before that happens.

Most guys seem to have gotten it. Some guys are still struggling with it.

The players struggling with it are the younger players that have had problems with other coaches prior. I have to believe where there's smoke, there's fire. Conversely, he has no hesitancy to double shift specific players or lines that are playing well. We didn't really see that with AV.

Again, I can't think of a single player that has come back from being scratched playing the same way that got them scratched in the first place. They have all comeback playing better.

 

[Edge]

The players struggling with it are the younger players that have had problems with other coaches prior. I have to believe where there's smoke, there's fire. Conversely, he has no hesitancy to double shift specific players or lines that are playing well. We didn't really see that with AV.

Again, I can't think of a single player that has come back from being scratched playing the same way that got them scratched in the first place. They have all comeback playing better.

Buch has had some of his better games coming off scratches. Which probably adds to the feelings of, "I know what you're capable of, not go out and do it!"

ADA is such an interesting case because we rarely if ever debate his actual talent. For the most part, everyone acknowledges his talent, his ability, his upside, and the fact that he's often been the lone bright spot on the defense.

Normally we debate upsides, and whether a player is a top six or middle six player, or a second pair defenseman, etc.

You don't really see that much with ADA.

 

[Off Sides]

But here's the thing, ADA isn't the lone rookie or young talent on this roster. He's one of several, and he'll be one of several more next year, and the year after.

That, in and of itself, is different than most teams this organization has iced over the last several decades.

So if ADA is doing something or saying something, there are several other young players, in some cases younger, who are looking to see how the coach responds. ADA's talent is not a question mark. It's the components that surround that talent that seem to keep raising questions wherever he goes.

We have two young guys on the roster right now who have talent, but who've raised questions about other aspects of their game. For me, it's not terribly surprising that they now happen to be the two guys who seem to be getting more the "ire" in this case.

But if we're going to use the lesser talent argument, than we can't ignore the increased responsibility of other guys who are considered better talents. It doesn't really work that way.

I think Quinn wants to play ADA. If anything, I'd probably argue he's just as frustrated by the stupid things.

It's not Quinn's intentions that I question, it's the balance between what may turn out to be two opposing forces, talent and culture. Ideally they want both, I'm not so sure I see an ideal situation, past, current or future on the Rangers or on any other team in the league.

Mostly there are just not enough players who embody both qualities, that of great "culture" and that of higher than bottom line/pair talent level.

At some point compromises will have to be made, just as they are when a player is good for one thing but not another.

Organizationally from 1st line/pair to depth are they going to put more weight on talent or culture? Which leads to the asset management portion of the organization and the catch 22 inherent there should they have players with talent who are lacking in their perception of culture.

To me it goes well beyond ADA, they are bound to run into talented players while rebuilding, debate prospects, some which are likely to not meet their culture threshold. Do they end up lowering their talent threshold as the compromise?

 

[Edge]

It's not Quinn's intentions that I question, it's the balance between what may turn out to be two opposing forces, talent and culture. Ideally they want both, I'm not so sure I see an ideal situation, past, current or future on the Rangers or on any other team in the league.

Mostly there are just not enough players who embody both qualities, that of great "culture" and that of higher than bottom line/pair talent level.

At some point compromises will have to be made, just as they are when a player is good for one thing but not another.

Organizationally from 1st line/pair to depth are they going to put more weight on talent or culture? Which leads to the asset management portion of the organization and the catch 22 inherent there should they have players with talent who are lacking in their perception of culture.

To me it goes well beyond ADA, they are bound to run into talented players while rebuilding, debate prospects, some which are likely to not meet their culture threshold. Do they end up lowering their talent threshold as the compromise?

I think at some point you make compromises. But when a player is 23 and potentially on the cusp of really doing something noteworthy, they push for it.

In ADA's case, he seems to be the outlier. If we were seeing this pattern with multiple young talents, I think I'd question the opposing forces. But right now I don't think that's the case.

Whatever it is that ADA said/did must have been significant enough that Quinn would at least give some attention to it in the media.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

We saw that same approach under AV, he too benched ADA, played Glass and such.

We saw it with Torts, Zherdev, Wolski

Partially that is the reasoning I am not very enthused about this "culture" building exercise. Every previous attempt just ended with lesser talented players playing more so than anyone really turning it around.

But it's not as id Zherdev and Wolski went elsewhere and flourished. If anything they were similar to ADA in that other teams had already quit on them.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

But it's not as id Zherdev and Wolski went elsewhere and flourished. If anything they were similar to ADA in that other teams had already quit on them.

Right, they both had work ethic issues that plagued their career no matter where they went.

Torts' "we can't get him out of the tub" line on Wolski was a classic.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Buch has had some of his better games coming off scratches. Which probably adds to the feelings of, "I know what you're capable of, not go out and do it!"

ADA is such an interesting case because we rarely if ever debate his actual talent. For the most part, everyone acknowledges his talent, his ability, his upside, and the fact that he's often been the lone bright spot on the defense.

Normally we debate upsides, and whether a player is a top six or middle six player, or a second pair defenseman, etc.

You don't really see that much with ADA.

Well said. People are bashing Quinn essentially because he isn't letting DeAngelo just go out there and play every night.

I actually feel bad for Quinn in this situation. What do you do when you know a kid is good enough to be playing regularly but just can't seem to fix a shitty attitude?

 

[Edge]

But it's not as id Zherdev and Wolski went elsewhere and flourished. If anything they were similar to ADA in that other teams had already quit on them.

I think it also speaks to the fact that quite a few very talented players end up having journeyman careers, despite periods where they posted really good numbers.

The objective is to get someone over that hump. But I also think we have to acknowledge that not every young player we have right now is going to play for this team for the next 10 years. There will be many different reasons for that, but it's going to be the reality of things even if most efforts go well in the rebuild.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Well said. People are bashing Quinn essentially because he isn't letting DeAngelo just go out there and play every night.

I actually feel bad for Quinn in this situation. What do you do when you know a kid is good enough to be playing regularly but just can't seem to fix a ****ty attitude?

The interesting thing is with the perception that some players are being treated unfairly is it doesn't seem to matter whether the team is winning of the team is losing.

AV got all kinds of crap for not playing a certain player and the team was very successful. Conversely, Quinn gets crap for not playing ADA or Buch and the team is losing. It's almost as if it becomes personal.

Furthermore, both AV and Quinn are doing what they were brought in to do: in AV case, win and in Quinn's case develop players, teach and build a culture.

 

[Off Sides]

But it's not as id Zherdev and Wolski went elsewhere and flourished. If anything they were similar to ADA in that other teams had already quit on them.

That is kind of what my point is concerning talented assets who may not embody whatever else they think they want in that player.

This whole thing is strange to me, why trade for that type of player in the first place?

And if they do, how do they get positive assets out of it by any means necessary?

If those means necessary go against the culture building exercise, then what?

If it continues to happen, do they start favoring lesser talents who are safer?

I guess I just do not get the all encompassing end game, I just can not imagine the ideal scenario where all the 23 or so players are talented... on par with the best rosters in the league, and they are also super hard working, super "culturefied" or whatever. In fact I'm not so sure I think the best rosters in the league have much of a culture anyway, they seem to be getting by on just being more talented.

 

[offdacrossbar]

imagine a guy like phil kessel on this team. how long before hes in the quinn bin ?

supremely talented scorer but not a work out warrior at all. loves his donuts doesnt always back check and dogs it occasionally, first off the ice at practice. he may have questionable "intentions" but a smart coach wouldn't try to "bench" that out of him.

dude is money on game day....

but quinn would healthy scratch him im sure.

young coach. needs to season a bit. understandable. hasn't proven anything in this league yet.

maybe just maybe he needs to chill a bit.... ??

Why the Penguins are happy to let Phil Kessel be Phil Kessel - Sportsnet

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The interesting thing is with the perception that some players are being treated unfairly is it doesn't seem to matter whether the team is winning of the team is losing.

AV got all kinds of crap for not playing a certain player and the team was very successful. Conversely, Quinn gets crap for not playing ADA or Buch and the team is losing. It's almost as if it becomes personal.

Furthermore, both AV and Quinn are doing what they were brought in to do: in AV case, win and in Quinn's case develop players, teach and build a culture.

Agreed.

It used to drive me crazy in the AV years, because that was also about role. I don't understand people flipping out with Glass playing 4th line minutes over someone like Lee Stempniak or Emerson Etem. It's apples and oranges.

The Buchnevich/DeAngelo situations are different because, as you said, with a rebuild comes a rebuild of everything, not just roster talent.

 

[Edge]

The interesting thing is with the perception that some players are being treated unfairly is it doesn't seem to matter whether the team is winning of the team is losing.

AV got all kinds of crap for not playing a certain player and the team was very successful. Conversely, Quinn gets crap for not playing ADA or Buch and the team is losing. It's almost as if it becomes personal.

Furthermore, both AV and Quinn are doing what they were brought in to do: in AV case, win and in Quinn's case develop players, teach and build a culture.

I think it becomes very personal for people, and it's a trend that I've seen increase in recent years --- both among how posters address each other, and how they address players and management.

I think technology has in a place where information and access is more prevalent than ever. As a result, people feel more connected and more informed about certain things and it becomes more personal to their identity.

I'd say I've done more clarifications on behind the scenes stuff in the past 3 years than I had in almost 20 years prior around here. False assumptions about people's personalities or things that transpired behind the scenes.

In more than a few instances I've had to chime in and discuss how I was there when a certain event happened and that's not how it went down. I think the risk of all the information that's available and social media platforms is that people feel more connected to something that they really are.

Social media allows people to take on personas they wouldn't dare roll with in the real world. And sometimes that can be liberating, but it can also have drawbacks as well.

 

[True Blue]

imagine a guy like phil kessel on this team. how long before hes in the quinn bin ?

Then he would learn or Gorton would never bring him in

young coach. needs to season a bit. understandable. hasn't proven anything in this league yet.

Not the debate. BTW, this is DeAngelo we are talking a about, not Phil Housley. What had ADA proven in this league?

maybe just maybe he needs to chill a bit.... ??

And do what? Let Buch float? Let go the ADA things? Reward them for not doing what is demanded of them? What message does that send for the other kids? That the inmates can run the asylum?