Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo - Part II

[Rempe73]

If this is true I think it is a terrible approach from Quinn. Its been studied that the best path to excellence is to just make sure you're not unacceptably bad in your weak areas and then focus all your attention on honing your strengths. In my book DeAngelo's defensive game is currently at a level where he should be able to focus on perfecting his strengths.

Right. I’m not saying that’s definitively what Quinn is doing, but that I can see why DeAngelo would think that. It’s funny, because I believe that ever since he was drafted, ADA had a very good, NHL-level offense, and that right now, it’s a little better, but not by much. He’s still great offensively, but he always was. His defense has seen lots of improvement, but his offensive development seems to have been stagnated by playing it too safe. I think the fear last season was that his defense was overdeveloped, yet not good enough to be a top 4 defenseman, while his offense was only average, and not good enough for him to be considered an offensive defenseman. But I think if Quinn continues to let him play freely, he’ll be fine.

 

[offdacrossbar]

its more difficult to play the game when you aren't relaxed and feel like every mistake you make is magnified and may result in a week long banishment to the press box.

this kid has had to play that way for the entire season.

staal. nope. pionk. nope. those 2 are teflon.

ADA plays like hes one bad play away from an armani suit week long vacation.

gotta weigh on you after awhile esp if you are playing well for the most part.

 

[Miamipuck]

Arguably he's been the Rangers best defensemen the last 5-10 games and has oodles of talent. I don't want to get into a larger discussion where I don't have any of the facts. But lets face it ADA has been scratched by a ton of coaches. Not all of them are clueless schmucks we might make them out to be. Where there's smoke there's fire.

Again, I have no f***ing idea what the smoke or fire is, and frankly, I don't give a rats ass. He's playing really good hockey and more importantly he's making a defenseman that's ordinarily useless in my eyes, part of a damn good pairing. ADA-Staal has been playing very well and I sincerely hope if they're kept together they keep playing like this because that's at least 1 pairing that can be relied on.

 

[True Blue]

If this is true I think it is a terrible approach from Quinn. Its been studied that the best path to excellence is to just make sure you're not unacceptably bad in your weak areas and then focus all your attention on honing your strengths. In my book DeAngelo's defensive game is currently at a level where he should be able to focus on perfecting his strengths.

Where has this been studied? I realize that we are all speculating here, but if Quinn demanded some sort of competent defensive play from DeAngelo or some specific things he does on the ice that leads to defensive play and he had for the better part of the year continuously ignored it, then he has absolutely done the right thing by not dressing him. Otherwise, you have the inmates running the asylum. All of which I have seen in my time as a Rangers fan. You cannot create a culture of accountability and allow for players to freelance.

 

[True Blue]

Arguably he's been the Rangers best defensemen the last 5-10 games and has oodles of talent. I don't want to get into a larger discussion where I don't have any of the facts. But lets face it ADA has been scratched by a ton of coaches. Not all of them are clueless schmucks we might make them out to be. Where there's smoke there's fire.

Again, I have no ****ing idea what the smoke or fire is, and frankly, I don't give a rats ass. He's playing really good hockey and more importantly he's making a defenseman that's ordinarily useless in my eyes, part of a damn good pairing. ADA-Staal has been playing very well and I sincerely hope if they're kept together they keep playing like this because that's at least 1 pairing that can be relied on.

Think that about sums it up.

 

[McRanger]

C'mon now, you think no players have ever been benched because of off ice issues? That helps my point about bias. People aren't thinking clearly even if they're trying to be rational.

In the NHL it isn't very common but geez in all sports there are countless examples of teams that benched, traded or otherwise cut bait with productive players due to off ice behavior.

Sad Examples of Players being Scratched / Benched

Not saying all those show how management was right/ Just that it happens.

Plus "On ice results"? He's not producing at such a high level that he's a must play. Especially when you look at the vets, salaries and his experience level. And I've vocally been on the "He should be playing more" bandwagon but I frequently have also noted the possibility that he's learning crucial off ice lessons.

Great. Can you name a similar situation? One where a player has very obviously outplayed his competition but is benched sporadically (and yet fairly extensively, he's sit 1/3 of the season) for learning "crucial off ice lessons", where no one had the slightest idea what those lessons are? Because somehow Gretzky not being chosen for the shootout in '98 doesn't quite do it for me.

I mean its not difficult to justify benching almost anyone. They wanted Lias to play center and bigger minutes so they benched and eventually demoted him. Brett Howden looks like he's been lobotomized so when he hits the bench, that will be the reason. Even AV always had reasons for his benchings, even if they were asinine, he likes player X because he needs grit for the match up, or something. But with ADA, despite the numerous coach-speak-mad-libs responses in this thread, there has yet to be anything past "I dunno, must be something" as if this happens all the time and is not the bizarre situation it really is.

The bottom line is that someone, somewhere is being stupid. If ADA really is some sort of chronic off ice problem then he and Gorton are being stupid because he needs to be gone yesterday. If Quinn is putting more emphasis on passing drills in practice over how the players are doing in NHL games (or worse, looking at Adam McQuad or Brendan Smith and actually thinking they are playing better) then it's Quinn who is acting stupidly.

Really this isn't even about ADA. They can load ADA into a cannon and fire him into outer space for all I care. What matters more is we have a coach who is able to recognize what works and what doesn't work as well as what matters and what doesn't matter and prioritize them properly to ice us the best team possible to give up the best chance to win. Because we are talking about the Rangers here and we will NEVER have a margin of error when it comes to anything.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Great. Can you name a similar situation? One where a player has very obviously outplayed his competition but is benched sporadically (and yet fairly extensively, he's sit 1/3 of the season) for learning "crucial off ice lessons", where no one had the slightest idea what those lessons are? Because somehow Gretzky not being chosen for the shootout in '98 doesn't quite do it for me.

I mean its not difficult to justify benching almost anyone. They wanted Lias to play center and bigger minutes so they benched and eventually demoted him. Brett Howden looks like he's been lobotomized so when he hits the bench, that will be the reason. Even AV always had reasons for his benchings, even if they were asinine, he likes player X because he needs grit for the match up, or something. But with ADA, despite the numerous coach-speak-mad-libs responses in this thread, there has yet to be anything past "I dunno, must be something" as if this happens all the time and is not the bizarre situation it really is.

The bottom line is that someone, somewhere is being stupid. If ADA really is some sort of chronic off ice problem then he and Gorton are being stupid because he needs to be gone yesterday. If Quinn is putting more emphasis on passing drills in practice over how the players are doing in NHL games (or worse, looking at Adam McQuad or Brendan Smith and actually thinking they are playing better) then it's Quinn who is acting stupidly.

Really this isn't even about ADA. They can load ADA into a cannon and fire him into outer space for all I care. What matters more is we have a coach who is able to recognize what works and what doesn't work as well as what matters and what doesn't matter and prioritize them properly to ice us the best team possible to give up the best chance to win. Because we are talking about the Rangers here and we will NEVER have a margin of error when it comes to anything.

Similar situation? Click the link!

Or are you asking me to have an impossibly categorical knowledge of every rookies first season as well as their on ice vs off ice issues? On rebuilding teams specifically? Why not move the goalposts even more and demand I only compare examples where a nyr player named Anthony happened to be playing under a rookie coach named david?

Did I mention how unreasonable people are being in regards to ada yet?

For the 85th time. I get it why people are not pleased/questioning the way he's been rotated in and out. I also disagree with assuming, unquestionably, that there is no good reason for it.

I look at his history with several teams in combination with comments Quinn made and THEN I decided that MAYBE there was a good reason for him being scratched a bunch.

I also look at how players as recently as buch were not putting in as much effort as they needed in specific areas and he got reduced ice as a result. Not to mention, when ada comes back he usually plays great. I dont feel inclined to argue with the results

How is the idea of a young, developing player getting scratched, while he learns the system, so new here on hf?

Kids played great in plenty of games, hes also made bad plays and mistakes in plenty of games.

I dont understand why that's bad to say at all

If some1 is being stupid, smart money is on it being the fans

 

[True Blue]

The bottom line is that someone, somewhere is being stupid.

It is far easier to assume that the someone is/was Quinn than to ass-u-me that the stupid person was (and hopefully will not be again), DeAngelo.

Are we to presume that Quinn has not discussed this with his assistants? And possibly and more likely probably Gorton? Then take in Quinn's own comments and the actions by him and the coaching staff and is it really a stretch to think that there was simply something to the game that they did not like to the point of not really wanting him on the ice? Or in practice there simply wasn't a desire by DeAngelo to fix whatever it was that they were and are trying to teach him? Or maybe he had to be told over and over again that he needs to do X and he consciously choose to do X+1 because he thought it was for the better? Take in his history and you are beginning to look at a lot of management on various teams that apparently are all being stupid somewhere.

As of right now, he has been playing very well since coming back into the line up. For me, I believe that it is more logical to presume that he had to make a decision. And choose to do X instead of X+1. And has done that very well and that led to him playing very well, best he has been all year. I certainly hope that he continues to play this way because this level of his play makes him a part of the solution.

In Quinn's own words, does the player make a mistake because he had the right intentions and just happened to make a mistake? Or did he make a mistake because he had the wrong intentions?

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

This thread reminds me of that great Ratt song...Round and Round

How about Nobody Rides for Free?

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

@True Blue I respect a lot of your analyses as well as your attempts to stay credible via ironing out your arguments and clarifying your positions, but at some point you need to see certain posters are not having a discussion with you.

You are fueling the echo chamber rather than extinguishing it.

 

[Harbour Dog]

@ReggieDunlop68 I respect a lot of your attempts to bring civility to the board as well as your attempts to keep posters in check by reminding them of identical past freakouts they've had, but at some point you need to see that certain posters are not having a discussion with you.

You are fueling the echo chamber rather than extinguishing it.

e - no sass intended.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

@ReggieDunlop68 I respect a lot of your attempts to bring civility to the board as well as your attempts to keep posters in check by reminding them of identical past freakouts they've had, but at some point you need to see that certain posters are not having a discussion with you.

You are fueling the echo chamber rather than extinguishing it.

e - no sass intended.

I'm aware, and I meant it sympathetically.

 

[McRanger]

It is far easier to assume that the someone is/was Quinn than to ass-u-me that the stupid person was (and hopefully will not be again), DeAngelo.

Are we to presume that Quinn has not discussed this with his assistants? And possibly and more likely probably Gorton? Then take in Quinn's own comments and the actions by him and the coaching staff and is it really a stretch to think that there was simply something to the game that they did not like to the point of not really wanting him on the ice? Or in practice there simply wasn't a desire by DeAngelo to fix whatever it was that they were and are trying to teach him? Or maybe he had to be told over and over again that he needs to do X and he consciously choose to do X+1 because he thought it was for the better? Take in his history and you are beginning to look at a lot of management on various teams that apparently are all being stupid somewhere.

As of right now, he has been playing very well since coming back into the line up. For me, I believe that it is more logical to presume that he had to make a decision. And choose to do X instead of X+1. And has done that very well and that led to him playing very well, best he has been all year. I certainly hope that he continues to play this way because this level of his play makes him a part of the solution.

In Quinn's own words, does the player make a mistake because he had the right intentions and just happened to make a mistake? Or did he make a mistake because he had the wrong intentions?

Im trying not to assume anything. I’m basing my opinion of ADA on the only thing that I can: his play on the ice. But as far as I can tell there are only two possible explanations about ADA off the ice, either he’s a big problem or he’s not.

Big problem: If ADA was still unable to do “whatever” (x being play hard in practice, not mouth off to the coaches, wear the correct color socks) by late December then ADA is an idiot and a lost cause and Gorton is acting stupidly because ADA should be gone. We can all continue down this lonely road to last place with the 400 other mediocre to bad defenseman we have.

Not a big problem: On the other hand if there is no big chronic issue and Quinn is somehow valuing NHL game production less than what he sees in drills, then Quinn is very much acting stupidly. Or worse if he is looking at guys like Smith and McQuad and actually thinking they give us a better chance to win a game then he is acting very stupidly. The Rangers are no stranger to those situations, you can find those almost every year: players that don’t belong in the NHL somehow playing anyway (filed under Glass, Tanner or Toms, Jeff or Fedyk, Brent) or guys that really shouldn’t be in their roles but are anyway (Girardi, Dan) or guys that should play but don’t play because the coach doesn’t value them or they don’t do something useless the coach loves like with Torts and Zucc.

I honestly just don’t get it. Compare the situation to the one with Buchnevich. Personally I think benching a guy who can probably sleepwalk his way to ~45 points is dumb but at least you can see what AV and Quinn’s issues are during the game, he’s not physical or he’s not engaged or whatever. What I’ve never seen is someone play well and play hard and get benched in favor of guys not playing hard or well because of something that may have happened in practice. I’ve never seen a player go from 20+ minutes a night to a healthy scratch for 3 games without any understanding of what the f*** happened. I mean the game before he was scratched in late December was a 2-1 win where the only goal against featured the dynamic duo or Staal and Pionk scrambling aimlessly about the ice.

It’s bizarre and I feel like I’m taking crazy pills that not everyone sees it.

 

[True Blue]

@True Blue I respect a lot of your analyses as well as your attempts to stay credible via ironing out your arguments and clarifying your positions, but at some point you need to see certain posters are not having a discussion with you.

You are fueling the echo chamber rather than extinguishing it.

True and fair enough.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I honestly just don’t get it. Compare the situation to the one with Buchnevich. Personally I think benching a guy who can probably sleepwalk his way to ~45 points is dumb

It’s bizarre and I feel like I’m taking crazy pills that not everyone sees it.

Your first and last sentence sums it up

Seriously though I GET that there is legit evidence that he was benched too much. Almost everyone has acknowledged this for you. You're refusing to acknowledge that there may have been some very obvious, sensible reasons for benching too.

Also why let a player sleepwalk to 45 if you can coach them up to 70?

 

[ArPanet]

Luke Shaw looking like TDA on MU 2nd v Arsenal FA Cup

 

[Walter t]

It's impossible to know what is going on behind the scenes. It is true that Tony was traded twice early in his career, but you don't know if those teams really wanted to trade him or if they felt they had to because of the return. Other coaches may have had trouble with him but again we can never understand all sides.
I just feel like at this point we need to play him, and if he continues to be "a problem" at least he might have trade value. Better yet, he could just continue to improve, because I think his ceiling is pretty high.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Arguably he's been the Rangers best defensemen the last 5-10 games and has oodles of talent. I don't want to get into a larger discussion where I don't have any of the facts. But lets face it ADA has been scratched by a ton of coaches. Not all of them are clueless schmucks we might make them out to be. Where there's smoke there's fire.

Again, I have no ****ing idea what the smoke or fire is, and frankly, I don't give a rats ass. He's playing really good hockey and more importantly he's making a defenseman that's ordinarily useless in my eyes, part of a damn good pairing. ADA-Staal has been playing very well and I sincerely hope if they're kept together they keep playing like this because that's at least 1 pairing that can be relied on.

But all thats being said about trading him scratching him is known... But if it took ALL that. All the trades, the scratches and etc for him to reach his potential its worth it.

If he continues his play now hes a great piece for when we contend, if he continues improving(which he undoubtedly has improved month over month since coming to NYR) he can be a major piece for us.

I've said Kris Letang before and i'll continue saying it. ADA looks like hes becoming Kris Letang. 100%

 

[effen]

A lot of this thread is people twisting themselves up wishcasting the coach was bad and dumb so they could angerbear and shake their fists at the situation. It's weird, man.

Quinn's clearly not so that messes with the narrative, but they REALLY want to angerbear, so it ends up being half-way passive aggressive bitching that seemingly never ends because the problem is with ADA and not with Quinn.

 

[sbjnyc]

It's impossible to know what is going on behind the scenes. It is true that Tony was traded twice early in his career, but you don't know if those teams really wanted to trade him or if they felt they had to because of the return.

Tampa traded a guy they picked 19th in 2014 for a 2nd rounder in 2016. Tampa used that pick to draft a guy named Libor Hajek. Both guys are now with the Rangers.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Tampa traded a guy they picked 19th in 2014 for a 2nd rounder in 2016. Tampa used that pick to draft a guy named Libor Hajek. Both guys are now with the Rangers.

So because Tampa traded them it means those guys suck and arent worth trying to develop?

 

[Kovalev27]

So Pionk is back with staal at practice and Tony is rotating in on third pair probably sitting.

Quinn is awful. No kid is developing under this guy. This is ridiculous. Rattle off 3 straight Ws with tony playing big mins soon as Pionk comes back we lose and he takes his spot. Makes zero sense

 

[nyr2k2]

So Pionk is back with staal at practice and Tony is rotating in on third pair probably sitting.

Quinn is awful. No kid is developing under this guy. This is ridiculous. Rattle off 3 straight Ws with tony playing big mins soon as Pionk comes back we lose and he takes his spot. Makes zero sense

It is worth mentioning that we lost because we couldn't hit a f***ing corner to save our life, and we allowed one goal where ADA didn't exactly shine. So...odd to make last night's loss about ADA not getting enough time.

Pionk played less 5-on-5 than ADA and the same on the PP (0:52). Pionk had a little more TOI overall because he played 2 minutes on the PK. Pionk had less 5-on-5 TOI than Lindgren did in his second and third games. It's not about giving Pionk some crazy minutes and him stealing ADA's spot. Shattenkirk had 16:38 at even strength which is 2-3 minutes more than he's been getting.

 

[Kovalev27]

It is worth mentioning that we lost because we couldn't hit a ****ing corner to save our life, and we allowed one goal where ADA didn't exactly shine. So...odd to make last night's loss about ADA not getting enough time.

Pionk played less 5-on-5 than ADA and the same on the PP (0:52). Pionk had a little more TOI overall because he played 2 minutes on the PK. Pionk had less 5-on-5 TOI than Lindgren did in his second and third games. It's not about giving Pionk some crazy minutes and him stealing ADA's spot. Shattenkirk had 16:38 at even strength which is 2-3 minutes more than he's been getting.

Has nothing to do with last night whatsoever. Pionk has taken the spot next to staal in practice today and tony is the fill in. Exactly what about not playing your best players makes sense? Especially when he’s been our best dman for weeks and we continue to win when he plays

 

[effen]

ADA was the "fill in" because Howden is hurt and Fast had a maintenance day so they were short a forward and ADA slotted in there for a practice because he can skate.

But yes, lets breathlessly give the same complaint about the coach for the 800th time misusing a specific player for the 450th time.