Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo - Part II

[True Blue]

Oh, still realllllyyyy reaching on that one liner? Cute

How so? It is a reach to dismiss something that has been talked about all year.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

How so? It is a reach to dismiss something that has been talked about all year.

With nothing to back up it accept a few posters reaching really hard over one comment he said in a press conference in November....then a week later him praising ADA for working hard at practice and doing what he needs to do.

 

[True Blue]

With nothing to back up it accept a few posters reaching really hard over one comment he said in a press conference in November....then a week later him praising ADA for working hard at practice and doing what he needs to do.

And then he was scratched. And brought up again when reporters questioned whether or not Quinn spoke directly to him and he responded that he did. Then the question was if it was the same thing as before. And he responded that it was but with a twist. This is not October. This is much more recent.

 

[McRanger]

Once again, when Quinn chooses to confide in me, you will be the first to know the answer.

Maybe until we have that answer, or even something that resembles a guess at that answer, we should stop using this as if it is actually a coherent explanation of what is happening. Because its not. None of this makes sense and people need to stop pretending that it does.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Maybe until we have that answer, or even something that resembles a guess at that answer, we should stop using this as if it is actually a coherent explanation of what is happening. Because its not. None of this makes sense and people need to stop pretending that it does.

Bingo.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I like how if you're pro ADA we should dismiss what the coach said and assume that, if it wasn't mentioned enough throughout the year then it definitely wasn't an issue and shouldn't be even thought about.

I get if you feel like it's NOT a matter of off ice/prep stuff bc of how rarely Quinn has referenced it. I think it's fair to feel that way.
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But to dismiss the possibility that it has been an issue at several points?

Idk it reeks of bias. Which everything surrounding ADA here is drenched with bias at every angle so it's no surprise

 

[Rempe73]

Or that. Just seems to me that if 77 had been doing what was told to him he would have to do, then he would have been playing all along.

Maybe, but we don’t know for sure.

 

[McRanger]

I like how if you're pro ADA we should dismiss what the coach said and assume that, if it wasn't mentioned enough throughout the year then it definitely wasn't an issue and shouldn't be even thought about.

I get if you feel like it's NOT a matter of off ice/prep stuff bc of how rarely Quinn has referenced it. I think it's fair to feel that way.
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But to dismiss the possibility that it has been an issue at several points?

Idk it reeks of bias. Which everything surrounding ADA here is drenched with bias at every angle so it's no surprise

Can you name me another situation where an off ice “something” has trumped on ice results?

I’m not pro-ADA or anti-ADA. I’m just pro-rational decision making.

 

[offdacrossbar]

o

The Brook article did state that ADA has done what he needs to do since being back in the line up. Had nothing to do with entire season.

What does Pionk have to do with this? Why not pile on Shattenkirk? Or Staal? Why have you seemed to have singled out Pionk as the great reason that ADA may sit?

What ADA has done is proven that he can do what is demanded of him and that has borne fruit in that he has played very well. If he continues to do just that, he should continue to play.

oh i don't know. lets see. why would he come out and why would it be 44 who takes his spot ?

1. both rightys.
2. both kids
3. article says 22 wont come out- showcased and vet playing better blah blah blah. he's not coming out
4. hes been the coach Q whipping boy all season
5. we all know staal never sits

just for starters.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Honestly I think pionk just stays out until we can move McQuaid, I doubt they wanna mess with what's working and I doubt they wanna sit mcquaid or shattenkirk incase someone is interested in them. I feel Smith should be playing too for that reason.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Can you name me another situation where an off ice “something” has trumped on ice results?

I’m not pro-ADA or anti-ADA. I’m just pro-rational decision making.

C'mon now, you think no players have ever been benched because of off ice issues? That helps my point about bias. People aren't thinking clearly even if they're trying to be rational.

In the NHL it isn't very common but geez in all sports there are countless examples of teams that benched, traded or otherwise cut bait with productive players due to off ice behavior.

Sad Examples of Players being Scratched / Benched

Not saying all those show how management was right/ Just that it happens.

Plus "On ice results"? He's not producing at such a high level that he's a must play. Especially when you look at the vets, salaries and his experience level. And I've vocally been on the "He should be playing more" bandwagon but I frequently have also noted the possibility that he's learning crucial off ice lessons.

 

[Rempe73]

Ugh, this 9 day break is annoying and is taking a toll on my sanity.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Ugh, this 9 day break is annoying and is taking a toll on my sanity.

Its ridiculous... Its like the off-season. Could we atleast get a trade during this break?

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I like how if you're pro ADA we should dismiss what the coach said and assume that, if it wasn't mentioned enough throughout the year then it definitely wasn't an issue and shouldn't be even thought about.

I get if you feel like it's NOT a matter of off ice/prep stuff bc of how rarely Quinn has referenced it. I think it's fair to feel that way.
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But to dismiss the possibility that it has been an issue at several points?

Idk it reeks of bias. Which everything surrounding ADA here is drenched with bias at every angle so it's no surprise

that's the thing, all you've got to do is watch. I think some so desperately want Tony D to be a mainstay in NY. The traditionalist in me, included. But it's no longer that he just needs a chance. He has skill, he shows it. He doesn't produce. While I do see he's trying and has gotten marginally better on defense, that's not his game. I'd love to see him turn it on by the deadline but If they can get a late 3rd for him, it might be the best bet.

 

[Rempe73]

Its ridiculous... Its like the off-season. Could we atleast get a trade during this break?

Yea, something to talk about at least. Without getting too off topic in the ADA thread, why do we have such a long break, while other teams have been playing up until yesterday? All season long, we’ve had multiple 4-5 day breaks that didn’t make any sense.

 

[Rempe73]

that's the thing, all you've got to do is watch. I think some so desperately want Tony D to be a mainstay. The traditionalist in me, included. But it's no longer that he just needs a chance. He has skill, he shows it. He doesn't produce. While I do see he's trying and has gotten marginally better on defense, that's not his game. I'd love to see him turn it on by the deadline but If they can get a late 3rd for him, t might be the best bet.

If you watch the games, you should know that he’s our best passer, and that he’s been robbed of many assists (at least 3 in the past 3-4 games: 1. The crazy pass from mid-air to McLeod vs. the Bruins; 2. The pass to Vesey vs. the Bruins, who should have scored on the empty net if not for Bergeron; 3. The pass to Mika, who scored vs. the Hawks but the goal was overturned because of Zucc being offsides). I would also add that his breakout passes have led to many scoring opportunities that our forwards couldn’t finish. He’s got great vision, and lately, he’s been our best defenseman at creating offense. Advanced metrics back me up on that. Him and Staal have been amazing so far (compared to the rest of the defense) at driving offense.

This is exactly why I keep bringing up that ADA is unlucky. It’s because of people saying he doesn’t produce, and only using points to evaluate a player.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Yea, something to talk about at least. Without getting too off topic in the ADA thread, why do we have such a long break, while other teams have been playing up until yesterday? All season long, we’ve had multiple 4-5 day breaks that didn’t make any sense.

Its a CBA thing. Essential you get a break before or after the all star break... But in general NHL scheduling sucks because the NHL often is the 3rd priority for Arena owners(1. concerts, 2. NBA, 3. NHL)

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

If you watch the games, you should know that he’s our best passer, and that he’s been robbed of many assists (at least 3 in the past 3-4 games: 1. The crazy pass from mid-air to McLeod vs. the Bruins; 2. The pass to Vesey vs. the Bruins, who should have scored on the empty net if not for Bergeron; 3. The pass to Mika, who scored vs. the Hawks but the goal was overturned because of Zucc being offsides). I would also add that his breakout passes have led to many scoring opportunities that our forwards couldn’t finish. He’s got great vision, and lately, he’s been our best defenseman at creating offense. Advanced metrics back me up on that. Him and Staal have been amazing so far (compared to the rest of the defense) at driving offense.

This is exactly why I keep bringing up that ADA is unlucky. It’s because of people saying he doesn’t produce, and only using points to evaluate a player.

Thing is, save transition guys, that's how an offensive defenseman is evaluated; stats. Regardless of what you say. I have noticed his leadership in transitioning, a lot like John Moore. But if that's gonna be his niche, his positional play has to improve.

 

[True Blue]

C'mon now, you think no players have ever been benched because of off ice issues? That helps my point about bias. People aren't thinking clearly even if they're trying to be rational.

Think that you are spot on. And I also think that this is the time to see what he has done. But again, Quinn is building a culture. He requires adherence to it. That more than likely goes on and off the ice.

Think that for some fans who seem mesmerized by him, it is far easier to come to a conclusion as simple as Quinn is playing him now because he realizes what a catastrophic mistake he has been making all long by benching him than hmmm.....maybe whatever it is that he has been trying to drill into his head has finally caught on. Who knows?

I will say that I think that since coming back he has played well and they do need to see if he is a part of the solution or a part of being with those who are on the way out.

 

[Rempe73]

Thing is, save transition guys, that's how an offensive defenseman is evaluated; stats. Regardless of what you say. I have noticed his leadership in transitioning, a lot like John Moore. But if that's gonna be his niche, his positional play has to improve.

Ever since he got put in consistently (past 5-6 games), he has been very good positionally and he’s probably been our best defenseman defensively in that time frame (although I do admit he and Staal struggled a bit vs. the Bruins top line). And I know it’s an outdated stat, but he’s been a +8 during those 6 games. On a team like this, that’s pretty good.

Also, I don’t see ADA as strictly offensive. I can see him being an all-around defenseman. If he continues to play, especially on the first PP where offensive d-men get a huge chunk of their points, the production will come. His stick checking is good, he can play physical (good body checking), he can pass, he has great vision, he is a fantastic skater, and he has a good wrist shot. Once he improves his defensive positioning, even if it’s just a small improvement, he can become that #2 d-man. Not saying it will happen, but he’s on the right track.

And why is ADA always criticized for the same things (or worse) that other d-men do, who don’t drive or create nearly as much offense as him? Why is he being held to a higher standard, even though he has been outperforming our whole defense offensively and defensively?

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Ever since he got put in consistently (past 5-6 games), he has been very good positionally and he’s probably been our best defenseman defensively in that time frame (although I do admit he and Staal struggled a bit vs. the Bruins top line). And I know it’s an outdated stat, but he’s been a +8 during those 6 games. On a team like this, that’s pretty good.

Also, I don’t see ADA as strictly offensive. I can see him being an all-around defenseman. If he continues to play, especially on the first PP where offensive d-men get a huge chunk of their points, the production will come. His stick checking is good, he can play physical (good body checking), he can pass, he has great vision, he is a fantastic skater, and he has a good wrist shot. Once he improves his defensive positioning, even if it’s just a small improvement, he can become that #2 d-man. Not saying it will happen, but he’s on the right track.

You could be right. If he stops trying to be offensive all the time, he can focus more. I think he's under the microscope leading up to the deadline.

They can find a bigger, rambunctious guy for one thing as easily as call up Gilmour who can skate around the offensive zone just for fun. Unless he can be what Moore was, efficient, reliable, ALMOST consistently, they should look at FAs. A no. 2 D would be well on his way at this stage.

 

[Blue Blooded]

And why is ADA always criticized for the same things (or worse) that other d-men do, who don’t drive or create nearly as much offense as him? Why is he being held to a higher standard, even though he has been outperforming our whole defense offensively and defensively?

Because he keeps getting scratched. People want to believe that the team is as well run as possible and regularly scratching your best defenceman is not congruent with that, so they will actively look for flaws and explanations. Just like everyone was actively looking for excuses for Girardi and Pionk - either they are unfit for the role and the team is poorly run or they are good at things that are being overlooked and the team is in fact being well run. Since we are fans we will be biased towards the latter.

And the tendency described above can exist even if you disagree with the premise that DeAngelo is currently our best defenceman or that Pionk doesn't belong on a top pairing. I used them to clarify, although I personally ascribe to both.

 

[haohmaru]

Girardi was definitely about usage - the problem was the Rangers, as "bad" as he was, didn't have anyone better to put in front of him. He's been fine with lesser minutes, PK duties, 3RD in Tampa.

ADA - seems there's a little bad luck involved here too - latest being that he gets on a roll and plays very well for a few consecutive games and here we are at the "bye" week and the All Star break. Same old same old.

What gets lost around here, too, is that these are really young guys and it actually behooves us to root for them to improve, and they will, instead of micro-analyzing guys that haven't played for all that long and are clearly still learning the game. ADA will succeed and I hope it's here. Pionk's been put in a role that anyone would've said is ludicrous a year ago. He's a rookie playing top pair minutes and had all of 48 AHL games and college to fall back on.

 

[Rempe73]

You could be right. If he stops trying to be offensive all the time, he can focus more. I think he's under the microscope leading up to the deadline.

They can find a bigger, rambunctious guy for one thing as easily as call up Gilmour who can skate around the offensive zone just for fun. Unless he can be what Moore was, efficient, reliable, ALMOST consistently, they should look at FAs. A no. 2 D would be well on his way at this stage.

But DeAngelo has already shown he can play like a #2 D, he just has a couple of things to work on. And I like Gilmour, but he’s nothing more than a bottom pairing defenseman. DeAngelo is better than him in every way, except Gilmour is faster and has a harder slap shot. That’s it. Gilmour doesn’t have the vision, passing ability, hockey IQ, or defensive ability of ADA. His positioning is very poor.

I think ADA feels like he has to focus on defense first, or the coach will scratch him. I’m not saying that’s what will happen or that’s what the coach thinks, but his mentality might be that playing it safe will keep him in the lineup. He should be playing relaxed. And maybe he is. I don’t know.

 

[Blue Blooded]

I think ADA feels like he has to focus on defense first, or the coach will scratch him. I’m not saying that’s what will happen or that’s what the coach thinks, but his mentality might be that playing it safe will keep him in the lineup. He should be playing relaxed. And maybe he is. I don’t know.

If this is true I think it is a terrible approach from Quinn. Its been studied that the best path to excellence is to just make sure you're not unacceptably bad in your weak areas and then focus all your attention on honing your strengths. In my book DeAngelo's defensive game is currently at a level where he should be able to focus on perfecting his strengths.