Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo (MOD WARNINGS: Post #12/#900)

[Hunter Gathers]

A season and a half on a fairly stabe pairing in a good environment for him? So far he hasn’t even remotely touched on that type of environment...

That is something that we should've seen progress on in the minors, though. He still has most of the same flaws he's always had. Look, I like the guy as a prospect, but let's all (all being one or two people) cut the shit with this ridiculous Paul Coffey or superstar talk. That stuff is laughable.

I'd be very happy with a second pairing, 40 point offensive defenseman.

 

[Edge]

I think a 40 point, second pairing defenseman would be a huge win for ADA.

I’d like to believe most of this board would be thrilled if that happened.

 

[nyr2k2]

Yeah I think the ship has certainly sailed on ADA being a superstar. He can still be a good player, though. However he's going to need to get there soon, as we have quite a few good young defensemen rising through the ranks (even if few are natural RDs). If he can't establish himself he'll get passed by other players, and we can't just roster him to hold onto him forever.

 

[Levitate]

I think a 40 point, second pairing defenseman would be a huge win for ADA.

I’d like to believe most of this board would be thrilled if that happened.

I'd be very happy. I think most people didn't expect him to be a 1st pairing super star. I like Blue Blooded's optimism but I guess I take a bit of a middle ground in the evaluation.

A 2nd pairing puck mover and PP guy is a valuable piece

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I'd be very happy. I think most people didn't expect him to be a 1st pairing super star. I like Blue Blooded's optimism but I guess I take a bit of a middle ground in the evaluation.

A 2nd pairing puck mover and PP guy is a valuable piece

I actually think that the 40-point second pairing guy is just a bit under the top level optimism anyone should have for ADA, lol. I could see him eking out a Shattenkirk-like career if literally every single thing went right from here on out.

 

[Baby Punisher]

I think he is a bust. I saw enough of him to say this with confidence. I would love to be pleasantly surprised and see him take the next step. I don't think he will here or anywhere in the NHL. He will wind up across the pond.

 

[Levitate]

I actually think that the 40-point second pairing guy is just a bit under the top level optimism anyone should have for ADA, lol. I could see him eking out a Shattenkirk-like career if literally every single thing went right from here on out.

I mean Shattenkirk is an absolutely elite level PP player and generally good puck mover overall. If DeAngelo hit that it'd be a home run

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

I think his off ice opinions rub people the wrong way. Other than that if he was a Rangers pick or part of another deal more people would support him. Instead he was down in most peoples minds before he even slipped on a Rangers sweater

 

[Mac n Gs]

One of my points was playing with better players will very often make you a better player.....and kind of insinuating that ADA is kind of between a rock and a hard place with the current group of Rangers. Though I will say that Provorov was almost instantly very good both offensively and defensively for a not so hot Flyers team. The Rangers also do not have any forwards as good as Giroux or Voracek.

The Rangers highest quality D right now is Brady Skjei IMO and which RD gets to pair with him is going to benefit and IMO if they have a choice every single one of Shattenkirk, Pionk and DeAngelo would choose him as their partner. The drop off from Skjei to Staal is significant.

Yeah, and I'd hope that it's a two-fold situation: 1) ADA comes into camp showing that he's the same player after his second call-up from Hartford and 2) he gets a better opportunity under Quinn. I think we're in a good spot to have a veteran pairing with Staal-Shattenkirk and a younger pairing with Skjei-ADA. I could see Claesson and Pionk working well too, but that's dependent on what happens with Smith. I actually really like Staal and Shattenkirk together, and Staal has shown that he does better when he's the guy that sits back on his pairing. Let's see if that continues under a new coach.

I'd like to think that ADA can give us 40-45 point upside or so as second pairing offensive defenseman. Let's be honest, though. This is the make-or-break year. If he doesn't stick this year, he's gone.

I know that it's considered a make-or-break year, but I really don't think it should be. I wouldn't want to get rid of a kid that talented when we haven't had offensive talent on the backend like his in years. If we're rebuilding, we should be doing everything we can to make sure he and Pionk develop properly, so that they're both quality pieces on cheap contracts moving forward. There's really no one blocking them in the long-term plans of the Rangers. Our RD pipeline is still pretty woeful, but it's definitely taken a quantum leap forward since the summer of 2017.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Yeah, and I'd hope that it's a two-fold situation: 1) ADA comes into camp showing that he's the same player after his second call-up from Hartford and 2) he gets a better opportunity under Quinn. I think we're in a good spot to have a veteran pairing with Staal-Shattenkirk and a younger pairing with Skjei-ADA. I could see Claesson and Pionk working well too, but that's dependent on what happens with Smith. I actually really like Staal and Shattenkirk together, and Staal has shown that he does better when he's the guy that sits back on his pairing. Let's see if that continues under a new coach.

.

He truly was a better player after that call up. I think he should've made the team originally but lost out to holden because AV gunna AV.

If he can take another small step (just like the one he did mid-season) hes a dynamite player and a skillset we'd be lucky to have on our blueline.

 

[eco's bones]

Yeah, and I'd hope that it's a two-fold situation: 1) ADA comes into camp showing that he's the same player after his second call-up from Hartford and 2) he gets a better opportunity under Quinn. I think we're in a good spot to have a veteran pairing with Staal-Shattenkirk and a younger pairing with Skjei-ADA. I could see Claesson and Pionk working well too, but that's dependent on what happens with Smith. I actually really like Staal and Shattenkirk together, and Staal has shown that he does better when he's the guy that sits back on his pairing. Let's see if that continues under a new coach.



I know that it's considered a make-or-break year, but I really don't think it should be. I wouldn't want to get rid of a kid that talented when we haven't had offensive talent on the backend like his in years. If we're rebuilding, we should be doing everything we can to make sure he and Pionk develop properly, so that they're both quality pieces on cheap contracts moving forward. There's really no one blocking them in the long-term plans of the Rangers. Our RD pipeline is still pretty woeful, but it's definitely taken a quantum leap forward since the summer of 2017.

Personally I liked how Pionk finished last year than anything I saw from DeAngelo the entire year. Just thought he played better in just about every respect and he certainly wasn't thrown into managed situations. That said---training camp is where the 18-19 Rangers will start to be sorted out and whichever one of them plays better should start the season on the better pairing.

Inevitably some posters here are not going to be happy with this decision or that decision the coaching staff makes and inevitably they'll start calling for heads and it will happen this season--we might not even get out of October before it happens. But this coaching staff (with the exception somewhat of Ruff who has been around an entire year already) will have to learn their personnel--their strength's and weaknesses not all of which is going to be apparent right away--will simultaneously with that have to implement some kind of system and at the same time working a bunch of younger guys/rookies into the mix. So I expect to see something more like a work in progress than a more finished product.

There are going to be issues with this team. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a very slow start and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see us not only getting walloped quite often on the scoreboard but at the same time getting beaten up on the ice. It's going to be a young team and not a particularly gritty team. I suspect it's going to be a long year and by the time next April comes around a lot of people here (maybe even myself) are going to be thinking--'f*** this! I can't wait until it's over'. It's going to be a real test for our younger D and any single one of them including Skjei might wilt long before it's over....and maybe that's why the Rangers have so many defensemen now---because they're thinking the same. So in respect to ADA and Pionk who are both trying to establish themselves and will probably be each others main competition in camp--what's ahead of them isn't really a sprint--it's going to be a marathon to get from October to April and for either of them to prove they're a legit top 4--they better come prepared.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Personally I liked how Pionk finished last year than anything I saw from DeAngelo the entire year. Just thought he played better in just about every respect and he certainly wasn't thrown into managed situations. That said---training camp is where the 18-19 Rangers will start to be sorted out and whichever one of them plays better should start the season on the better pairing.

Inevitably some posters here are not going to be happy with this decision or that decision the coaching staff makes and inevitably they'll start calling for heads and it will happen this season--we might not even get out of October before it happens. But this coaching staff (with the exception somewhat of Ruff who has been around an entire year already) will have to learn their personnel--their strength's and weaknesses not all of which is going to be apparent right away--will simultaneously with that have to implement some kind of system and at the same time working a bunch of younger guys/rookies into the mix. So I expect to see something more like a work in progress than a more finished product.

There are going to be issues with this team. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a very slow start and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see us not only getting walloped quite often on the scoreboard but at the same time getting beaten up on the ice. It's going to be a young team and not a particularly gritty team. I suspect it's going to be a long year and by the time next April comes around a lot of people here (maybe even myself) are going to be thinking--'**** this! I can't wait until it's over'. It's going to be a real test for our younger D and any single one of them including Skjei might wilt long before it's over....and maybe that's why the Rangers have so many defensemen now---because they're thinking the same. So in respect to ADA and Pionk who are both trying to establish themselves and will probably be each others main competition in camp--what's ahead of them isn't really a sprint--it's going to be a marathon to get from October to April and for either of them to prove they're a legit top 4--they better come prepared.

Yeah, I agree about next year. I'm actually expecting for us to be pretty ass up through Christmas, but believe that we'll see them coalesce and end the year on a positive note like the Coyotes.

Back to ADA and Pionk: What did you see in Pionk's offensive that made you like it more than ADA? I actually thought his results seemed pretty unsustainable and his play wasn't matching my eye test. However, I did see a lot in his defensive game that I liked, particularly his ability to read gaps and to properly utilize his body to break up passing lanes without taking himself out of the play.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

I think his off ice opinions rub people the wrong way. Other than that if he was a Rangers pick or part of another deal more people would support him. Instead he was down in most peoples minds before he even slipped on a Rangers sweater

I was a bit surprised by how bad defensively he was and how ineffective/unproductive his offence was.

 

[Levitate]

He truly was a better player after that call up. I think he should've made the team originally but lost out to holden because AV gunna AV.

If he can take another small step (just like the one he did mid-season) hes a dynamite player and a skillset we'd be lucky to have on our blueline.

Well he did make the team out of camp but the team was such a tire fire AV panicked and went back to his usual players and strategies.

There are going to be issues with this team. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a very slow start and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see us not only getting walloped quite often on the scoreboard but at the same time getting beaten up on the ice. It's going to be a young team and not a particularly gritty team. I suspect it's going to be a long year and by the time next April comes around a lot of people here (maybe even myself) are going to be thinking--'**** this! I can't wait until it's over'.

This pretty much describes the Rangers over the past two years and especially last year so...I guess we'll at least hopefully get to watch young players try to make their mark instead of watching veterans stumble through another season?

re: Pionk I still really don't get how people can ignore his underlying stats and talk up his defensive game when he very clearly had some issues there. I'm encouraged by some stuff I saw but it's 100% clear he isn't a top minutes eating defenseman and he still has a lot of work to do

 

[NYR713]

Tony D better find a miracle improvement this off season because he hasn't done shit since Jr hockey. 23 years old and didn't spend time in NCAA or Europe... time is running out to show something here. -18 in 31 games with sheltered minutes and 66%+ oZS is abysmal. Fresh slate of no AV defensive madness is here so he better take advantage of it.

 

[aufheben]

Pionk's on-ice Sv% (94.06) was almost as high as DeAngelo's entire PDO (94.26).

We should be more familiar with goalies bailing out players than any other fan base.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I mean Shattenkirk is an absolutely elite level PP player and generally good puck mover overall. If DeAngelo hit that it'd be a home run

I’m saying a lower level version (lite) if EVERYTHING goes right for him. I think the ship has sailed on a Yandle or full Shatty career.

 

[Tawnos]

Well he did make the team out of camp but the team was such a tire fire AV panicked and went back to his usual players and strategies.



This pretty much describes the Rangers over the past two years and especially last year so...I guess we'll at least hopefully get to watch young players try to make their mark instead of watching veterans stumble through another season?

re: Pionk I still really don't get how people can ignore his underlying stats and talk up his defensive game when he very clearly had some issues there. I'm encouraged by some stuff I saw but it's 100% clear he isn't a top minutes eating defenseman and he still has a lot of work to do

It’s because of two things: 1) it’s not clear whether the underlying numbers are the result of Pionk’s ability or the result of being put in a situation he wasn’t ready to handle and 2) there was enough there from watching him play to give hope that those numbers will improve with experience and time.

I’m not saying I know for sure that it was the latter option in point 1 or that any of point 2 will pan out, but this is one of those times that numbers *might* not mean much.

 

[Inferno]

It's funny...as a 19 year old he led all Syracuse defenseman in scoring...had like 1 less point than a 23 year old yanni gourde...he translated very well to the ahl right off the bat. The trade to Arizona definitely messed with him as did the trade to the rangers. The production and talents been there...last year he looked really unlucky to me.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

It's funny...as a 19 year old he led all Syracuse defenseman in scoring...had like 1 less point than a 23 year old yanni gourde...he translated very well to the ahl right off the bat. The trade to Arizona definitely messed with him as did the trade to the rangers. The production and talents been there...last year he looked really unlucky to me.

he couldn't produce a single goal in 530 minutes of total icetime and 62 minutes of PP time. All he managed was 8 assists in that span.

 

[Levitate]

It’s because of two things: 1) it’s not clear whether the underlying numbers are the result of Pionk’s ability or the result of being put in a situation he wasn’t ready to handle and 2) there was enough there from watching him play to give hope that those numbers will improve with experience and time.

I’m not saying I know for sure that it was the latter option in point 1 or that any of point 2 will pan out, but this is one of those times that numbers *might* not mean much.

I don't really buy it because it's still basically saying "my eye test trumps all". I think saying "they might not mean that much" is an excuse to avoid looking at real criticism of his play.

and I LIKE Pionk. I'm real interested to see how he can do next season. He's got a lot of tools and I think his deficiencies are things that can be planned around or mitigated in the right circumstances. It's the "DeAngelo sucks and is terrible at defense and will never be anything" view compared to the "Pionk looked really good and solid I think he'll be a real good player" view that is bothering me. One guy is viewed as a solid 2 way defenseman and gets a pass, another guy is viewed as a high risk high flying offensive defenseman who has struggled to translate into points but therefor is terrible at defense and bad. I am 100% sure we're letting our biases and expectations color our views of these two players.

 

[Kovalev27]

I like this kid and have high hopes for him but they will quickly fade if he doesn’t make it happen this year and EARLY. He will get passed. He’s too small and doesn’t defend well enough to be a 40 pt guy. He’s going to have to be a 50 pt guy to survive in this league.

Can he be that? I don’t know. I don’t like his shot at all. That hurts him. He moves the puck like a magician though but to be a 50 pt blue liner you’ve got to be able to shoot the puck

 

[silverfish]

Feel like people aren't really grasping that 40 points for a d-man these days is quite a bit. If ADA is playing third-pair EV and 2 unit PP, he's not going to put up 40 points.

Without cheating, how many d-men a year do you think put up 40 points?

Spoiler

Last season, 30 d-men put up 40 points. Most seasons, it's closer to 25. Last year, of those 30, only three players skated < 20 min/gp

This is why rate stats are important.

 

[eco's bones]

Both DeAngelo and Pionk will be 23 year old players this coming year. DeAngelo is almost 3 months younger but essentially they're the same age. I'd rather not get hung up on conjecturing which one of them will turn out the better. The thing is I might not be around to watch training camp/beginning of the season because I'm going to be traveling--but the Rangers aren't so deep on the right side as they are on the left and the 2nd pairing RD job is pretty much either's for the taking--taking it is one thing and keeping it is another but really the Rangers need one of those two to do that take and keep. Keeping in mind as well that doesn't just mean who is going to be the better power play guy. The job description of the #2RD goes further than just offensive ability--being able to defend well--being able to penalty kill also fit into that role. It's a role also that you can't really manage---whoever has it is going to be facing off every game against the better/best players on other teams. To me it's a make or break season for both of these guys. If one of them takes the job and holds it---the other one might be on his way out of town and if neither of them can do a good enough job then it could very well mean the Rangers pull a deal off for another RD who can do the job. And both Neal and Tony should approach this season with---'I have to do it or I'm done here' in mind.

So this idea about not being make or break--the opportunity is there--so it kind of is.

 

[Tawnos]

I don't really buy it because it's still basically saying "my eye test trumps all". I think saying "they might not mean that much" is an excuse to avoid looking at real criticism of his play.

and I LIKE Pionk. I'm real interested to see how he can do next season. He's got a lot of tools and I think his deficiencies are things that can be planned around or mitigated in the right circumstances. It's the "DeAngelo sucks and is terrible at defense and will never be anything" view compared to the "Pionk looked really good and solid I think he'll be a real good player" view that is bothering me. One guy is viewed as a solid 2 way defenseman and gets a pass, another guy is viewed as a high risk high flying offensive defenseman who has struggled to translate into points but therefor is terrible at defense and bad. I am 100% sure we're letting our biases and expectations color our views of these two players.

For rookies, particularly defensemen, I 100% believe that the “eye test” (which is a term I hate) plays a far bigger role than statistics. The balance becomes much more even after a couple of years in the league, although I might quibble with the value of some specific statistics even then. It’s too easy for a rookies numbers across the board to be influenced by situational factors. In macrocosm, it’s the same reason why Brady Skjei putting up huge even strength assist numbers, for a rookie, didn’t make me think he was going to be an offensive powerhouse. Situational results aren’t predictive and for rookies and sophomores, they have to be proven one way or the other in subsequent seasons. Until we have those seasons, I tend to lean on observation. All of it comes with the caveat that players often improve over the course of a season and can see leaps in an off-season. I’m not writing DeAngelo off nor am I giving Pionk a pass.

How you balance this stuff is absolutely subjective. There’s nothing wrong with that. The quest for objectivity is boring anyway.