Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo (MOD WARNINGS: Post #12/#900)

[Blue Blooded]

No, he said, and I quote, "At the time I thought he legitimately had Paul Coffey-level upside and I still think he does."

It's a laughable statement worthy of scorn. The idea that ADA has Paul Coffey-level upside is hilarious. To STILL think ADA has that upside after it's been shown to be abundantly clear that he does not is somehow even funnier.

Upside, colloquially meaning what a player might become if everything breaks right. I don't think he'll get there - but I don't think the door has entirely closed either, he is the most skilled defenceman coming out of the CHL in decades.

And Nate MacKinnon was never going to be a star in the NHL, despite his underlying metrics saying he was at least a top-20 forward every year. Funny how that worked out in the end.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Upside, colloquially meaning what a player might become if everything breaks right. I don't think he'll get there, but I don't think the door has entirely closed either.

Right. The door isn't "entirely closed" on ADA having the upside of a top 15 or so defenseman of all time.

This is one of the more laughable statements I've ever seen on this board. It's up there with Prucha being better than Crosby.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Just as general question, why do people think Pionk has more offensive potential than ADA? I like Pionk’s game a lot and think he handled himself decently well for a kid that was thrown straight to the wolves, but I didn’t see anything that suggests he’d pace for 40 points like he did in his NHL stint.

Around here you get less pushback suggesting Sean Day has top pairing upside than ADA. I reckon most wrote him off entirely the moment he was traded for a 2nd round pick, regardless of what happened on the ice.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Around here you get less pushback suggesting Sean Day has top pairing upside than ADA. I reckon most wrote him off entirely the moment he was traded for a 2nd round pick, regardless of what happened on the ice.

[citation needed]

 

[Mac n Gs]

No, he said, and I quote, "At the time I thought he legitimately had Paul Coffey-level upside and I still think he does."

It's a laughable statement worthy of scorn. The idea that ADA has Paul Coffey-level upside is hilarious. To STILL think ADA has that upside after it's been shown to be abundantly clear that he does not is somehow even funnier.

Woops, missed that part then since I was referring to a previous discussion he and I had.

However, I don’t think a development curve like Barrie or Ellis is an unreasonable ceiling for ADA.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Right. The door isn't "entirely closed" on ADA having the upside of a top 15 or so defenseman of all time.

This is one of the more laughable statements I've ever seen on this board. It's up there with Prucha being better than Crosby.

For reference, I think the door of him becoming Erik Karlsson-tier is closed as I don't think he'll ever be as good defensively.

In other words, I think DeAngelo's maximum upside is what people used to perceive Karlsson as a few years ago. Top-5 defenceman in the league on sheer offensive talent with a less than stellar defensive game, maybe winning a Norris or two on point totals. As I said, the most skilled defenceman to come out of the CHL in decades.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

For reference, I think the door of him becoming Erik Karlsson-tier is closed as I don't think he'll ever be as good defensively.

In other words, I think DeAngelo's maximum upside is what people used to perceive Karlsson as a few years ago. Top-5 defenceman in the league on sheer offensive talent with a less than stellar defensive game, maybe winning a Norris or two on point totals.

This is slightly less absurd and ridiculous. But still absurd and ridiculous.

As I said, the most skilled defenceman to come out of the CHL in decades.

And now we are back to insane hyperbole.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Lias Andersson has Steve Yzerman upside.

Sean Day has Scott Niedermayer upside.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

However, I don’t think a development curve like Barrie or Ellis is an unreasonable ceiling for ADA.

Both of those comps would be completely defensible.

 

[Blue Blooded]

This is slightly less absurd and ridiculous. But still absurd and ridiculous.



And now we are back to insane hyperbole.

And if I told you last summer that MacKinnon still had elite upside you'd have called that absurd and ridiculous.

 

[True Blue]

Gilmour/Hajek/Claesson/O'Gara - Pionk

I have no faith in Smith, by the way. And I would also rather have one of the prospects take his place, if they earn it.

You may not have faith in him, but I believe that he will be given every opportunity to claim a spot.

I actually have no faith in Gilmour and O'Gara. Have not seen anything that would tell me that they are full time NHL players. Hajek may not be ready. We shall see what Claesson can show.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

And if I told you last summer that MacKinnon still had elite upside you'd have called that absurd and ridiculous.

[citation needed]

MacKinnon always had elite potential, but it took him a couple of seasons to "get" the pro game. However, he was a very good NHLer during that span. Quite a bit different than ADA

Also, saying that a guy drafted #1 overall has "elite upside" is quite a bit different versus saying someone drafted 19th has Paul Coffey upside and is the best defenseman drafted out of the entire CHL in "decades". What you've said is laughable. Plain and simple.

 

[Blue Blooded]

[citation needed]

MacKinnon always had elite potential, but it took him a couple of seasons to "get" the pro game. However, he was a very good NHLer during that span. Quite a bit different than ADA

MacKinnon is basically an exact comparable of what I mean with DeAngelo: Dominates in juniors, suggesting elite upside. Doesn't put up the expected point totals at the pro level, but his underlying stats suggests there is a lot more to come.

...is the best defenseman drafted out of the entire CHL in "decades".

Most skilled != best, pretty trivial stuff.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

MacKinnon is basically an exact comparable of what I mean with DeAngelo: Dominates in juniors, suggesting elite upside. Doesn't put up the expected point totals at the pro level, but his underlying stats suggests there is a lot more to come.

Yeah, no. He's not. MacKinnon was a very good pro before he became elite. ADA has been a fringe NHLer who can't crack a roster full time. And you still think he has Paul Coffey upside.

I'm sorry, but what you've suggested is one of the most outrageous comparisons I have ever seen on this board. It boggles the mind. You weren't around for the Prucha / Crosby stuff, but it is clearly up there with that.

Most skilled != best, pretty trivial stuff.

Yet my statement remains the same.

 

[eco's bones]

To me DeAngelo's maximum upside is Mathieu Schneider. Schneider turned out to be a good player but it also helps to be on a team that can nurture and develop a player. I don't think DeAngelo is going to have anywhere near that same stable kind of situation--but two similar sized, similar skilled, similar feisty offensive oriented D. If he can turn out like Schneider he will be a good player.

Back to the Coffey comparable--the Oiler had the luxury of pairing him with solid D guys---they had a powerhouse team besides. DeAngelo is going to have to do what he does without all that. Also back to the CHL numbers--Coffey comes from another time and the Oilers had a very, very high octane offense. One should be careful comparing CHL numbers from the late 70's to present day numbers.

DeAngelo is not nearly as good now as a number of contemporary young D in his age range--either offensively or defensively. Consider Sergachev who is with his old team the Lightning. Sergachev has a lot of upside but he's hardly a star but he's much further along than Tony. Consider Gostisbehere who has a similar game to his and similar defensive issues. No one in their right mind though would choose DeAngelo over Gostisbehere. Sticking just with the Flyers Provorov is another. That guy should be a stud. Butcher with the Devils--again another player with similar defensive issues as DeAngelo but he had a much better rookie pro year than ADA had in his third pro year. We can go round the league and pick up a number of others in ADA's age range that he's not as good as.

 

[Mac n Gs]

To me DeAngelo's maximum upside is Mathieu Schneider. Schneider turned out to be a good player but it also helps to be on a team that can nurture and develop a player. I don't think DeAngelo is going to have anywhere near that same stable kind of situation--but two similar sized, similar skilled, similar feisty offensive oriented D. If he can turn out like Schneider he will be a good player.

Back to the Coffey comparable--the Oiler had the luxury of pairing him with solid D guys---they had a powerhouse team besides. DeAngelo is going to have to do what he does without all that. Also back to the CHL numbers--Coffey comes from another time and the Oilers had a very, very high octane offense. One should be careful comparing CHL numbers from the late 70's to present day numbers.

DeAngelo is not nearly as good now as a number of contemporary young D in his age range--either offensively or defensively. Consider Sergachev who is with his old team the Lightning. Sergachev has a lot of upside but he's hardly a star but he's much further along than Tony. Consider Gostisbehere who has a similar game to his and similar defensive issues. No one in their right mind though would choose DeAngelo over Gostisbehere. Sticking just with the Flyers Provorov is another. That guy should be a stud. Butcher with the Devils--again another player with similar defensive issues as DeAngelo but he had a much better rookie pro year than ADA had in his third pro year. We can go round the league and pick up a number of others in ADA's age range that he's not as good as.

To those younger guys you’ve mentioned, I’d argue that they also benefited from getting to play witch much better players than ADA had the opportunity to do. I guess I’ll exlclude Ghost from this, but he was Provorov’s most common d partner and his most common forward teammates were Giroux, Coots, and Voracek. Sergachev had Stralman as his most common d partner and Kucherov as his most common forward teammate. Butcher had Lovejoy (I think he’s pretty underrated) and Hall and Hischier.

I think if we stick ADA to Skjei and give him some time with our top-6, I’d bet we see an offensive uptick from him. I’ll admit that he needs some work in the defensive end, but it was because I saw him make a lot of poor reads in his own end and bad pinches. He was too much of a rover and that came back to bite him. I think if Quinn can get him to play more structured, I’d expect his defensive play to improve. I don’t think it’s a strength issue with him because we’ve seen him have no issue going into the corners and even stepping up to guys like Simmonds.

 

[Off Sides]

Schneider had a cannon for a shot.

I think if everything goes well ADA will be a decent top 4. It's his reads and over aggression that get him into trouble. I'd like to see him keep the aggression for the most part, pick his spots better and not try to do too much.

 

[TheTakedown]

Yes, it me. Youngest VP in Dunder Mifflin history. Tried to reach for the stars and fell hard. Now I'm back as a temp, taking names of all the people who wrong me when I make my way back to the top.

f***ing love that show

 

[eco's bones]

To those younger guys you’ve mentioned, I’d argue that they also benefited from getting to play witch much better players than ADA had the opportunity to do. I guess I’ll exlclude Ghost from this, but he was Provorov’s most common d partner and his most common forward teammates were Giroux, Coots, and Voracek. Sergachev had Stralman as his most common d partner and Kucherov as his most common forward teammate. Butcher had Lovejoy (I think he’s pretty underrated) and Hall and Hischier.

I think if we stick ADA to Skjei and give him some time with our top-6, I’d bet we see an offensive uptick from him. I’ll admit that he needs some work in the defensive end, but it was because I saw him make a lot of poor reads in his own end and bad pinches. He was too much of a rover and that came back to bite him. I think if Quinn can get him to play more structured, I’d expect his defensive play to improve. I don’t think it’s a strength issue with him because we’ve seen him have no issue going into the corners and even stepping up to guys like Simmonds.

One of my points was playing with better players will very often make you a better player.....and kind of insinuating that ADA is kind of between a rock and a hard place with the current group of Rangers. Though I will say that Provorov was almost instantly very good both offensively and defensively for a not so hot Flyers team. The Rangers also do not have any forwards as good as Giroux or Voracek.

The Rangers highest quality D right now is Brady Skjei IMO and which RD gets to pair with him is going to benefit and IMO if they have a choice every single one of Shattenkirk, Pionk and DeAngelo would choose him as their partner. The drop off from Skjei to Staal is significant.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

To those younger guys you’ve mentioned, I’d argue that they also benefited from getting to play witch much better players than ADA had the opportunity to do. I guess I’ll exlclude Ghost from this, but he was Provorov’s most common d partner and his most common forward teammates were Giroux, Coots, and Voracek. Sergachev had Stralman as his most common d partner and Kucherov as his most common forward teammate. Butcher had Lovejoy (I think he’s pretty underrated) and Hall and Hischier.

I think if we stick ADA to Skjei and give him some time with our top-6, I’d bet we see an offensive uptick from him. I’ll admit that he needs some work in the defensive end, but it was because I saw him make a lot of poor reads in his own end and bad pinches. He was too much of a rover and that came back to bite him. I think if Quinn can get him to play more structured, I’d expect his defensive play to improve. I don’t think it’s a strength issue with him because we’ve seen him have no issue going into the corners and even stepping up to guys like Simmonds.

I'd like to think that ADA can give us 40-45 point upside or so as second pairing offensive defenseman. Let's be honest, though. This is the make-or-break year. If he doesn't stick this year, he's gone.

 

[mrmovies779]

I'd like to think that ADA can give us 40-45 point upside or so as second pairing offensive defenseman. Let's be honest, though. This is the make-or-break year. If he doesn't stick this year, he's gone.

Ill settle for 30-35 points and adequate defense.Anything else is icing on the cake.

 

[Ola]

How long does he have to solidify his game, though? He's going to be 23. This is basically a make-or-break season for him.

I think DeAngelo still has second pairing upside with a very outside chance of a Shattenkirk-like game, but he's got a ton of work to do to get there.

He's more Andy Delmore than Kevin Shattenkirk right now at this stage of his career. He should improve, but I don't think we're going to see a ton of revisions in his game.

A season and a half on a fairly stabe pairing in a good environment for him? So far he hasn’t even remotely touched on that type of environment...

 

[Ola]

Eco- Great point.

He definitely must produce offensively. In general, I think it’s one of those — ‘it’s in the walls’ — type of flaws this organization have had since more or less Leetch left. Nobody in the organization have had knowledge of that area. There have been nobody on the ice to pass along a tradition. I think our new assistent will do wonders in that regard.

 

[Ola]

Upside, colloquially meaning what a player might become if everything breaks right. I don't think he'll get there - but I don't think the door has entirely closed either, he is the most skilled defenceman coming out of the CHL in decades.

And Nate MacKinnon was never going to be a star in the NHL, despite his underlying metrics saying he was at least a top-20 forward every year. Funny how that worked out in the end.

MacKinnon??? Hehe, you can’t play that card with one of the most eye opening talents in Hockey.

 

[Inferno]

I think Kris Letang when I think deangelo.

I'm an unabashed fan of his.