Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo (MOD WARNINGS: Post #12/#900)

[NYR Viper]

I think DeAngelo probably suffers greatly from "the eye test" and people who expect an offensive defenseman to put up a ton of points and be completely useless if they do not.

I'm not as high on him as Blue Blooded is but it's no surprise his underlying stats are quite good in some ways, they pretty much always have been.

IMO he's a guy you need to give a chance and also allow yourself to look at the things he's doing on the ice (transition, zone entries, shot metrics) and make an impartial decision about whether that's means he's overall contributing positively to the team. He might not put up ridiculous points in the NHL but I think people continue to undersell the value of a guy who can move the puck up the ice and create scoring chances even if he's not an A+ defender in his own zone

This is the other thing that I noticed very blatantly last year. His ability to move the puck anywhere on the ice and place it on players' sticks in stride is a unique ability. I don't think he will ever be the guy who puts up 60+ points from the back-end but his ability to move the puck in the right direction and not panic while setting up his teammates to b in better spots with the puck up the ice is extremely useful.

I also didn't think he was AT ALL bad in his own end.

 

[Levitate]

I also didn't think he was AT ALL bad in his own end.

Yeah I agree though in general I haven't been able to watch games so closely that I can go back and pick out flaws and good plays all the time. But my general impression is a guy who tries to be in the right places and do the right things, and that's a pretty decent place to start from at least

 

[TheTakedown]

Honestly he has the tools to be better than meh in his own end, but I specifically remember a few instances where AV's system threw him, and other guys off. Coming right off the bench, or out of the penalty box, it was common to see guys unbeknownst to them of which offender to cover.

 

[Inferno]

I mention the CHL numbers because they indicate his upside, you cannot do what he did without elite talent.

As for his offensive game last season, his underlying stats indicate that it was incredibly good. The projected scoring numbers were not listed to say he was as good as Karlsson/Burns, but that his play should've resulted in a lot more points than his stat line ended up being. In addition, not only did he dominate the transition game - he managed to be in the 93rd percentile in terms of shot contributions and shot assists (again, including forwards). But a combination of bad luck and those assists being to Paul Carey and David Desharnais (AV sure liked to play ADA with the 4th line) stopped it from showing up on the scoresheet.

No, it's certainly not a guarantee that Quinn will give DeAngelo a good situation to play in - or even play him at all. I'm just saying that in my opinion his history and play at every level indicate that his upside is probably higher than any other NYR controlled player and we shouldn't let that slip by.

So....much....this.

I'm a huge Ada fan
To me he passed the eye test and the advanced test last year .it's the traditional stats he failed at and a lot of that can be explained away by usage. I think if given a fair chance he's a top 4 defenseman staple on this team.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

The only defencemen who scored like DeAngelo in the CHL and didn't make it as 1st pairing guys are Brian Fogarty and Ryan Murphy. I assume we all know the tragic story of Fogarty and Murphy was ruined by concussions. Even then, Fogarty didn't get close to DeAngelo until his D+2 season and while Murphy's D season was very good (he came close to repeating it) it wasn't really on DeAngelo's level TBH.

Adjusting for team GPG like I did, the only CHL seasons that can even be compared to DeAngelo's D season (44.87%) is Bobby Orr's "D" season (44.24%), Ryan Ellis' D+2 season (41.87%), Brian Fogarty's D+2 season (41.59%) and DeAngelo's own D+1 season (38.41%). The next guy on the list is Doug Wilson's D season (34.84%). I might have missed someone, since I did this by hand last summer, but I don't think so.

ADA’s CHL numbers are as relevant as my CHL numbers right now.

 

[Blue Blooded]

ADA’s CHL numbers are as relevant as my CHL numbers right now.

Exactly, 110,000 posts and your takes are still terrible.

Trying to figure out a player that has yet to establish himself in the NHL requires laying a puzzle of information and throwing out important pieces is imbecile. But you do you, guy.

 

[Edge]

You have to think this season is ADA's best shot (maybe last "best" shot).

 

[nyr2k2]

Exactly, 110,000 posts and your takes are still terrible.

Trying to figure out a player that has yet to establish himself in the NHL requires laying a puzzle of information and throwing out important pieces is imbecile. But you do you, guy.

At what point would you feel that his CHL production is no longer relevant to projecting his NHL future?

 

[NYR Viper]

I fail to see how a player like Colin Miller can turn it around and put up points in the NHL and a player like ADA can't. They won't ever be defensive stalwarts but they will get the puck and move it quickly out of the zone. That's their job. If we are looking for ADA to be Michael Sauer than we are setting him up for failure.

The offense will come. His talent with the puck is too high for it not to.

 

[Levitate]

You have to think this season is ADA's best shot (maybe last "best" shot).

Probably...if he can't stick and make a mark with the Rangers then he's probably going to be pigeonholed around the league as a AAA player at best

I fail to see how a player like Colin Miller can turn it around and put up points in the NHL and a player like ADA can't. They won't ever be defensive stalwarts but they will get the puck and move it quickly out of the zone. That's their job. If we are looking for ADA to be Michael Sauer than we are setting him up for failure.

The offense will come. His talent with the puck is too high for it not to.

Agree on the Colin Miller stuff

 

[Tawnos]

I fail to see how a player like Colin Miller can turn it around and put up points in the NHL and a player like ADA can't. They won't ever be defensive stalwarts but they will get the puck and move it quickly out of the zone. That's their job. If we are looking for ADA to be Michael Sauer than we are setting him up for failure.

The offense will come. His talent with the puck is too high for it not to.

I’m not saying it won’t, but Miller looked much more competent as a rookie in handling difficult shifts than I’ve seen from DeAngelo. I say that with the awareness that I saw DeAngelo more last year than I’ve even seen Miller and I could be totally mistaken about Miller’s rookie year due to the limited viewing.

Here’s the thing: once a player gets to 21 years old or so and is a pro, I stop being enthralled by potential and move more into a “prove it” mindset. So yes, DeAngelo could follow a somewhat Miller-esque career arc, but until he starts to prove it, then I remain skeptical. Really only because of the basic line: “nobody is X until they are actually X,” whether X is “NHL player” or “2nd pairing D” or “top 6 forward.”

 

[sbjnyc]

Sometimes, high end junior production happens because a player is a step ahead in terms of development compared to his peers. It isn’t purely about talent at that level.

I’m not sure which it is with DeAngelo yet, but I am not encouraged by his last season.

He was on the older side of his draft class and then spent another year in Juniors so you could be right. I of course know nothing but hope for the best.

 

[Tawnos]

He was on the older side of his draft class and then spent another year in Juniors so you could be right. I of course know nothing but hope for the best.

I do too. To your point about his age: players don’t develop at the same rates, particularly when they’re young and the progress they might make is often uneven. Him being on the older side doesn’t necessarily indicate that he would be developmentally ahead.

I would hazard a guess that the majority of first round picks that bust were first round picks because they were developmentally ahead of their peers but in reality they weren’t any more talented than their peers. Seems far more likely to me than scouts overrating their talent.

 

[eco's bones]

Or Smith plays the left side and both of Pionk & DeAngelo make it. Regardless, I agree that this is probably a make or break year for him.

On the right side then--Shattenkirk isn't very big and the other two are kind of undersized. Smith would have to switch over from the left to the right for penalty killing duty if the Rangers decide they don't want DeAngelo or Shattenkirk doing that.

Which is just a way of saying that it might just turn out easier for all concerned with Smith on the right side.

 

[Rempe73]

As long as he's played on a non-terrible team during his pro career (i.e. Syracuse and Tuscon) his stats have been very good. His production has only dropped off when playing on complete dumpster fires such as the 16-17 Yotes and the 17-18 Wolf Pack. While his numbers on a bad-to-terrible Rangers team were awful, his underlying stats had him as the 4th best defenceman in the league in terms of projected 5v5 points (behind Burns, Barrie and Karlsson) and 3rd in projected primary points (behind Burns and Karlsson). His zone exit/entry stats were McDavid-tier as well, the top percentiles were as far as I could tell basically McDavid, MacKinnon, Karlsson and DeAngelo with the rest of the defencemen way behind (forwards tend to have a lot better metrics than defencemen in terms of exits/entries).

I see a supremely talented player that has been jerked around and put into positions to fail. Partner him with Skjei and give him the leeway to make a few mistakes and I bet he'll surprise a lot of people.

You basically summed up all my scattered thoughts about DeAngelo. I loved DeAngelo since he was still on the Coyotes, and I still do. I also see major upside, even though it isn't Coffey-level upside. I definitely see him as a Shattenkirk-lite or Subban-lite if he can put it together. It really angers me when coaches don't give him any leeway. Give him a chance to make mistakes and learn.

And the other thing that bothers me is a lot of fans have already given up on him. D-men usually take longer to develop and need talent around them in order to maximize their potential. I predicted, since the Quinn hiring, that DeAngelo will have a breakout season. Hopefully he can stay healthy as well.

 

[eco's bones]

I fail to see how a player like Colin Miller can turn it around and put up points in the NHL and a player like ADA can't. They won't ever be defensive stalwarts but they will get the puck and move it quickly out of the zone. That's their job. If we are looking for ADA to be Michael Sauer than we are setting him up for failure.

The offense will come. His talent with the puck is too high for it not to.

It's a good point--keeping in mind that Miller is also bigger and stronger and better defensively. Skill wise I think ADA has a decent edge over Miller though---the question is whether he's going to make something of it.

Players have windows to make it in. ADA's window is this year and maybe next year. After that--he might hang around for a while but his odds of becoming anything special won't be very good at all.

 

[Inferno]

Go ahead and quote me. DeAngelo will be one of the 3 best defenseman on this team by seasons end. And within 3 seasons he will be their best.

 

[silverfish]

Go ahead and quote me. DeAngelo will be one of the 3 best defenseman on this team by seasons end. And within 3 seasons he will be their best.

 

[Tob]

I thought he was just fine last season, played well. Given our depth last year, he was definitely top 4 for us. Not sure why this is a boom or bust year.

 

[Rempe73]

Or Smith plays the left side and both of Pionk & DeAngelo make it. Regardless, I agree that this is probably a make or break year for him.

That would be good. Rangers need both Tony and Neal to play. Other than Skjei, they are the best young D-men we have. They both still have a good amount of upside, and we need to be patient.

Staal - Shattenkirk
Skjei - DeAngelo
Gilmour/Hajek/Claesson/O'Gara - Pionk

I have no faith in Smith, by the way. And I would also rather have one of the prospects take his place, if they earn it.

 

[NYR Viper]

It's a good point--keeping in mind that Miller is also bigger and stronger and better defensively. Skill wise I think ADA has a decent edge over Miller though---the question is whether he's going to make something of it.

Players have windows to make it in. ADA's window is this year and maybe next year. After that--he might hang around for a while but his odds of becoming anything special won't be very good at all.

Miller just broke out. He’s also 3 years older than ADA as well. I think we need to be patient

 

[frozenrubber]

I thought he was just fine last season, played well. Given our depth last year, he was definitely top 4 for us. Not sure why this is a boom or bust year.

Because he's no longer waiver exempt. He's on his 3rd team, and if he has a poor year, he'll be looked upon more as an Adam Clendening v2.0 instead of a potential top-four D.

It was incredibly poor timing to get injured last year, a boatload of icetime during garbage time after the trading deadline is what he really needed.

 

[Inferno]

Because he's no longer waiver exempt. He's on his 3rd team, and if he has a poor year, he'll be looked upon more as an Adam Clendening v2.0 instead of a potential top-four D.

It was incredibly poor timing to get injured last year, a boatload of icetime during garbage time after the trading deadline is what he really needed.

The worst part of it was the game before he got hurt I felt like he was our best defenseman by a mile...then he got hurt and who knows how that will set him back.

Still. I'm a believer in this kid. I see way too much good. Maybe I'm an idiot. Woudlnt be the first time (I swore by sjostrom). Won't be the last time.

 

[Inferno]

Honestly....right now all I can do is associate you with this image lol.

 

[Rempe73]

On the right side then--Shattenkirk isn't very big and the other two are kind of undersized. Smith would have to switch over from the left to the right for penalty killing duty if the Rangers decide they don't want DeAngelo or Shattenkirk doing that.

Which is just a way of saying that it might just turn out easier for all concerned with Smith on the right side.

Or we can just bench Smith. We went through this exact same scenario last year. Smith will have to earn his spot, and I don't know if he will. As of now, Skjei, Shattenkirk, and Staal (sadly) are all locks. Pionk, DeAngelo, Gilmour, and O'Gara (all 25 or younger) each outplayed a 28-29 year old Brendan Smith. And those players all have at least a little upside, while Smith doesn't. Besides, Smith had one high point of his career. 12 playoff games in 2016-17. Before that, he was not a good player. After losing some weight, I think he will improve, but not by much. He will probably go back to being mediocre like he was before joining the Rangers.