Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo (MOD WARNINGS: Post #12/#900)

[nyr2k2]

What was the point of trading for him in the first place?

Lots of offensive talent, we had a dearth of RHD prospects and offensively-oriented D prospects. Maybe he was also the best prospect we could pry from Arizona.

It's certainly possible in retrospect, especially with the other moves we have since made, we'd do something different. That's just speculation though.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

my guess? he knows he should be playing but coaches have favorites and he's probably sulking about it like he did when he went down to Hartford last year. Quinn isn't going to stand for it. two guys butting heads. he's going to have to start to work harder and earn a spot back. do I agree with it? no. but I also don't like sulkers. its going to be up to DeAngelo to force them into playing him and keeping him in the lineup.

It's probably something like this. And I have a newsflash for the people willing to ignore his track record of being a jerk, while he is talented, he's nowhere near talented enough to justify an entitled attitude.

 

[Crease]

Lots of offensive talent, we had a dearth of RHD prospects and offensively-oriented D prospects. Maybe he was also the best prospect we could pry from Arizona.

It's certainly possible in retrospect, especially with the other moves we have since made, we'd do something different. That's just speculation though.

I am continually unimpressed with the Rangers NHL scouts. Nice job with Brassard and Stralman but otherwise too many misses.

 

[Tawnos]

DeAngelo is a talented player, offensively, but his talent level isn't high enough to force this conversation on its own.

 

[Kovalev27]

that's a good point. he hasn't shown enough at this level to have it be ok to sulk or be lazy in practice. if he were a star player then yah you get that leeway. he's not. needs to keep his mouth shut and prove to the coaches he's an everyday top 4 dman.

 

[Off Sides]

Lots of offensive talent, we had a dearth of RHD prospects and offensively-oriented D prospects. Maybe he was also the best prospect we could pry from Arizona.

It's certainly possible in retrospect, especially with the other moves we have since made, we'd do something different. That's just speculation though.

Rangers still are going to be lacking in RHD prospects, at least those who are near NHL ready next off-season.

On the NHL team, are they extending McQuaid?

In the last years of Shattenkirk, Smith are they extending them?

Are they going to sign some UFA RD? Trade for it?

Rangers have two seemingly on the cusp of NHL RHD players age 22-23, is there something more important than devloping them in a rebuilding year?

In 3 years is it going to really matter they did not like DeAngelo's practices? Is it really going to matter that Staal played up to his low threshold? That McQuaid maybe returned a 3rd or was extended? Is Quinn still going to be their coach? Gorton their GM?

They may think they are doing the right thing by whatever is going on with DeAngelo, maybe they are and everything works out, but I'd probably put my bet on them ending up with a partially self inflicted lack of RD over the next 3 years because of what they are doing.

 

[nyr2k2]

Rangers have two seemingly on the cusp of NHL RHD players age 22-23, is there something more important than devloping them in a rebuilding year?

In 3 years is it going to really matter they did not like DeAngelo's practices? Is it really going to matter that Staal played up to his low threshold? That McQuaid maybe returned a 3rd or was extended? Is Quinn still going to be their coach? Gorton their GM?

They may think they are doing the right thing by whatever is going on with DeAngelo, maybe they are and everything works out, but I'd probably put my bet on them ending up with a partially self inflicted lack of RD over the next 3 years because of what they are doing.

I mean all this talk of "developing" DeAngelo seems to assume players only develop by playing in games, which is completely ridiculous. If his practice habits sucks (again, I don't know that they do) and he has some sort of bad attitude, then I would wager good money that those things prevent him from becoming the player he could otherwise become. Unless you're some historically great player like Allen Iverson, practice absolutely does matter, and it matters even more when you're young and not established and still learning how to play the game to the best of your abilities.

If he has bad practice habits or some other personality thing that's keeping him out of the lineup, I am 100% okay with them trying to address it by holding him out. If they just overlook these things that will make it harder for him to fulfill his potential then they'd be doing a disservice to themselves and to the player. They're not running him out of town. They're trying to correct some deficiency that they think is preventing him from succeeding. There's nothing wrong with that. And if they can't correct it and think it's a serious enough issue that they'd rather he sit than play, ship him out. Hopefully he works out his problems before that.

 

[pblawr]

I mean all this talk of "developing" DeAngelo seems to assume players only develop by playing in games, which is completely ridiculous. If his practice habits sucks (again, I don't know that they do) and he has some sort of bad attitude, then I would wager good money that those things prevent him from becoming the player he could otherwise become. Unless you're some historically great player like Allen Iverson, practice absolutely does matter, and it matters even more when you're young and not established and still learning how to play the game to the best of your abilities.

If he has bad practice habits or some other personality thing that's keeping him out of the lineup, I am 100% okay with them trying to address it by holding him out. If they just overlook these things that will make it harder for him to fulfill his potential then they'd be doing a disservice to themselves and to the player. They're not running him out of town. They're trying to correct some deficiency that they think is preventing him from succeeding. There's nothing wrong with that. And if they can't correct it and think it's a serious enough issue that they'd rather he sit than play, ship him out. Hopefully he works out his problems before that.

I totally agree with this. Attitude issues / getting traded aside, I think the biggest issue is that he simply has not developed / improved the way he should. He put up historic numbers in the OHL in his pre-draft season and 5 years later he still hasn't been able to get a regular NHL shift in multiple stops. His point totals have actually gone down over time in the AHL and NHL. Quinn basically came out and said his practice habits suck. He's played 256 games since he's been drafted. Getting ice time is not the issue.

 

[Off Sides]

I mean all this talk of "developing" DeAngelo seems to assume players only develop by playing in games, which is completely ridiculous. If his practice habits sucks (again, I don't know that they do) and he has some sort of bad attitude, then I would wager good money that those things prevent him from becoming the player he could otherwise become. Unless you're some historically great player like Allen Iverson, practice absolutely does matter, and it matters even more when you're young and not established and still learning how to play the game to the best of your abilities.

If he has bad practice habits or some other personality thing that's keeping him out of the lineup, I am 100% okay with them trying to address it by holding him out. If they just overlook these things that will make it harder for him to fulfill his potential then they'd be doing a disservice to themselves and to the player. They're not running him out of town. They're trying to correct some deficiency that they think is preventing him from succeeding. There's nothing wrong with that. And if they can't correct it and think it's a serious enough issue that they'd rather he sit than play, ship him out. Hopefully he works out his problems before that.

How is it that we can say some prospects are better devloping in the AHL by playing a lot of games/minutes and then turn around and say DeAngelo sitting out the games is not hindering his development?

If his practice habits sucked, why the two preseason games, why the two regular season games? Did he practice well for them and all of a sudden take the next practice completely off? If he took it off I can certainly understand the situation more so than if they just do not like how he practices.

Again though with the lack of information concerning DeAngelo, and I mean there is basically no information being volenteered, I don't think it's out of line to speculate either way that it's all on him or if some part of this is the Rangers just do not like him for some reason or another. (I literally have spend too much time reading the old articles and watching Ranger media stuff and the Rangers since his injury last season have said nothing about him other than a couple post games where Quinn said he had a good game when asked specifically about him but divulged no other info, and Shattenkirk mentioned him when he was scratched)

I guess I just don't see what they are trying to correct at least in comparison to every other player, I watched all his games, he made some poor pinches in his last game, I don't think that is a big deal under a new coach preaching new stuff and every single player is out there making some bad reads.

I'd be making a similar argument for Pionk if he was the odd man out however Quinn has actually came forth with information that Pionk is going to play, he likes him and whatever. Pionk and DeAngelo are basically the same age, should DeAngelo having played more games (because he was better or was being rushed) at a younger age count against him?

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I think it’s fair to say Atleast 1 other team would because if they wouldn’t ADA would be in Hartford

Totally agree someone would,but if he doesn't look in the mirror soon and realize its him that has to change he is gonna be a career minor leaguer with nhl ability. His chances at becoming a regular are likely down to the next team if he doesn't get it together here.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

What was the point of trading for him in the first place?

Getting out from Stepan's NMC and obtaining the #7 pick. I don't think DeAngelo was the crown jewel of that trade by any means. The Rangers probably had the same thoughts as you, that a talented player could be rehabilitated, but the reality of his attitude is staring them in the face.

 

[Tawnos]

How is it that we can say some prospects are better devloping in the AHL by playing a lot of games/minutes and then turn around and say DeAngelo sitting out the games is not hindering his development?

If his practice habits sucked, why the two preseason games, why the two regular season games? Did he practice well for them and all of a sudden take the next practice completely off? If he took it off I can certainly understand the situation more so than if they just do not like how he practices.

Again though with the lack of information concerning DeAngelo, and I mean there is basically no information being volenteered, I don't think it's out of line to speculate either way that it's all on him or if some part of this is the Rangers just do not like him for some reason or another. (I literally have spend too much time reading the old articles and watching Ranger media stuff and the Rangers since his injury last season have said nothing about him other than a couple post games where Quinn said he had a good game when asked specifically about him but divulged no other info, and Shattenkirk mentioned him when he was scratched)

I guess I just don't see what they are trying to correct at least in comparison to every other player, I watched all his games, he made some poor pinches in his last game, I don't think that is a big deal under a new coach preaching new stuff and every single player is out there making some bad reads.

I'd be making a similar argument for Pionk if he was the odd man out however Quinn has actually came forth with information that Pionk is going to play, he likes him and whatever. Pionk and DeAngelo are basically the same age, should DeAngelo having played more games (because he was better or was being rushed) at a younger age count against him?

Not all players are facing the same challenges.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Not all players are facing the same challenges.

Due to the Russian bias.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Why are we all jumping to the conclusion that this is an attitude thing instead of an appease the veteran thing which is much more likely?

 

[effen]

Why are we all jumping to the conclusion that this is an attitude thing instead of an appease the veteran thing which is much more likely?

lol
poor David Quinn. Terrified by Marc Staal's steely glare

 

[effen]

some serious #wanting going on here.

y'all want it to be one way, but it's the other way.

 

[Tawnos]

Why are we all jumping to the conclusion that this is an attitude thing instead of an appease the veteran thing which is much more likely?

Well, considering that Quinn seemingly has no problem playing literally any other of the young players up with the team, has benched several veteran players (Namestnikov, Shattenkirk, McQuaid, Spooner, Hayes who hasn't been scratched but has been glued to the pine), plus DeAngelo has a history... it's not a stretch at all.

I'm the person who mentioned earlier that this might be a execution problem more than anything else, but to discount that there might be more to it would be silly. The evidence certainly doesn't point Quinn appeasing veterans.

 

[Rempe73]

1. We gave up a lot for the #7, dumping Stepan's contract before his NMC kicked in, and DeAngelo
2. Highly debatable
3. Ideally, yes
4. Ideally, no
5. I care, if what you're describing the coaches care, and probably other guys that bust their ass care
6. Maybe?
7. This makes it sound like ADA is some star defenseman, like we're benching Brent Burns. ADA is a 23-year-old defenseman on his third organization who has played 70 games. Quinn most certainly does not need to "respect his talent."

Fair enough, but DeAngelo was not some add-on in that trade. You always ask for more than you think you can get in a trade, as Gorton did when he asked for Keller, but “settled” on DeAngelo, which we can assume is the player he really wanted (realistically). And no, Quinn is not benching some elite player, but I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. In every game he played so far this season, including preseason, Tony was our best defenseman.

 

[nyr2k2]

Fair enough, but DeAngelo was not some add-on in that trade. You always ask for more than you think you can get in a trade, as Gorton did when he asked for Keller, but “settled” on DeAngelo, which we can assume is the player he really wanted (realistically). And no, Quinn is not benching some elite player, but I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. In every game he played so far this season, including preseason, Tony was our best defenseman.

I remember a lot of Phoenix fans saying after the trade that they thought he was playing great hockey. That some nights he was up there with OEL. And yet, he'd still get scratched, and played 20-whatever games throughout the year in Tucson.

I remember before that, Tampa being thrilled they got a guy who could be a cornerstone of the franchise. A pillar back there with Hedman. And with the 19th pick, no less. A lot of people thought it was a steal. Then, two years later, he's basically traded for Hajek.

Then he comes here. A big piece of the Stepan deal--I myself was excited about the acquisition. Can' get regular playing time. Bounces up and down. A new year, new coach. Same story. Apparently looks great, doesn't play.

Seems odd to me that Tampa would be so quick to move on (albeit for a good prospect in Hajek), that Arizona would not consistently ice this great young player, and that two different Rangers coaches would also hold him out. Seems like something's off, doesn't it? What do you think it is?

 

[Rempe73]

I remember a lot of Phoenix fans saying after the trade that they thought he was playing great hockey. That some nights he was up there with OEL. And yet, he'd still get scratched, and played 20-whatever games throughout the year in Tucson.

I remember before that, Tampa being thrilled they got a guy who could be a cornerstone of the franchise. A pillar back there with Hedman. And with the 19th pick, no less. A lot of people thought it was a steal. Then, two years later, he's basically traded for Hajek.

Then he comes here. A big piece of the Stepan deal--I myself was excited about the acquisition. Can' get regular playing time. Bounces up and down. A new year, new coach. Same story. Apparently looks great, doesn't play.

Seems odd to me that Tampa would be so quick to move on (albeit for a good prospect in Hajek), that Arizona would not consistently ice this great young player, and that two different Rangers coaches would also hold him out. Seems like something's off, doesn't it? What do you think it is?

Read my last sentence again. That’s what I think.

And it has to be a personal issue. Some kind of attitude problem. The numbers and the eye test show that he’s been a very good player.

 

[Off Sides]

Getting out from Stepan's NMC and obtaining the #7 pick. I don't think DeAngelo was the crown jewel of that trade by any means. The Rangers probably had the same thoughts as you, that a talented player could be rehabilitated, but the reality of his attitude is staring them in the face.

I think troubled players can be rehabilitated in a way, I'd call it just playing them. Of course if they are skipping practice or whatever there should be some sort of punishment, but for the most part I do not expect a hockey team that has 23-25 guys and a prospect pool that has 23-25 kids to be some sort of angelic bunch where they all get along or do not have some attitude. I find that to just be the nature of professional sports.

Players like Kane, both of them, Avery, Downie, Carter, Richards, etc cause some issues, yet some teams are able to find ways to deal with that rather than turn the player into a non asset. At some point the Rangers are going to have to choose talent or wholesomeness(for as lack of better word), teams that have won cups (or teams in other pro sports who won their version of the championship) have had players that are troublesome on them, more than one or two players that would otherwise likely be perceived as jerks or whatever.

If the philosophy is, the team will be filled with character, leadership, whatever traits over talent where does that leave the Rangers chances of eventually winning a cup when other teams are able to deal with difficult talented players and the Rangers are not?

 

[kovazub94]

I am not buying that at this point the reason ADA is not getting into the line up is due to off-ice, non-hockey related stuff.

With that said it's time ADA is given a chance either over Shattenkirk or McQuaid (which he will eventually when one or both of these vets are traded) but in meantime he has to perform in practice as if it was a real game.

 

[Crease]

Getting out from Stepan's NMC and obtaining the #7 pick. I don't think DeAngelo was the crown jewel of that trade by any means. The Rangers probably had the same thoughts as you, that a talented player could be rehabilitated, but the reality of his attitude is staring them in the face.

Herman wrote a nice article about this yesterday on Blueshirt Banter. The Rangers initially wanted Clayton Keller from Arizona but Arizona wouldn't budge and the parties agreed on DeAngelo and the 7th Overall. The Rangers wanted to trade up further for Cale Makar and their Plan B was praying Elias Pettersson would fall to 7. All this to say, DeAngelo was a pretty important part of the deal. I agree another important part was getting out from under Stepan's imminent NMC although I'm not sure Arizona knew that.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Herman wrote a nice article about this yesterday on Blueshirt Banter. The Rangers initially wanted Clayton Keller from Arizona but Arizona wouldn't budge and the parties agreed on DeAngelo and the 7th Overall. The Rangers wanted to trade up further for Cale Makar and their Plan B was praying Elias Pettersson would fall to 7. All this to say, DeAngelo was a pretty important part of the deal. I agree another important part was getting out from under Stepan's imminent NMC although I'm not sure Arizona knew that.

I think Arizona was fully aware of that... Thats what forced the deal so soon. They probably used that as leverage.

Addition:Not Necessarily About Your Post: You can't assume Arizona is dumb and super smart whenever it's convenient to fit a narrative..

 

[nyr2k2]

I think troubled players can be rehabilitated in a way, I'd call it just playing them. Of course if they are skipping practice or whatever there should be some sort of punishment, but for the most part I do not expect a hockey team that has 23-25 guys and a prospect pool that has 23-25 kids to be some sort of angelic bunch where they all get along or do not have some attitude. I find that to just be the nature of professional sports.

Players like Kane, both of them, Avery, Downie, Carter, Richards, etc cause some issues, yet some teams are able to find ways to deal with that rather than turn the player into a non asset. At some point the Rangers are going to have to choose talent or wholesomeness(for as lack of better word), teams that have won cups (or teams in other pro sports who won their version of the championship) have had players that are troublesome on them, more than one or two players that would otherwise likely be perceived as jerks or whatever.

If the philosophy is, the team will be filled with character, leadership, whatever traits over talent where does that leave the Rangers chances of eventually winning a cup when other teams are able to deal with difficult talented players and the Rangers are not?

I don't know why you think that's the case. We don't even know why or to what extent there's a problem with DeAngelo. However, we obviously don't have some rock-solid commitment to character at all costs or else we wouldn't have taken the gamble on acquiring DeAngelo in the first place.

You're making it out to be an either/or choice, like the Rangers have to choose character or talent. They can choose both. How many incredibly talented guys play in the NHL without characters concerns? Probably 100x more than those who have documented character issues. I mean sure, you can find a handful of stars who have done bad things either before or after they made it, but you can find tons more who haven't. I don't think it's a problem that the Rangers are focused on the latter group.

Patty Kane is a tool. He was also an established star when he ran into issues. Detroit got rid of Avery pretty early on because they said he didn't respect the game; LA eventually moved on after the bullying and refusing to practice. Downie is a dirtbag, and should have been thrown out of the NHL years ago--I would not take him on my team under any circumstance. Carter got traded to a place he didn't want to be right before his NTC kicked in, sulked and loafed through his tenure in Columbus, so they had enough and got rid of him. Richards was a star when the sex and partying stuff picked up. Then after turning it around in LA, he gets terminated for drugs. Evander was an established player long before the assault stuff.

From those examples, Downie is the only guy who wasn't already being a productive player established in the league when his issues cropped up (and he's just awful). He's the only parallel to DeAngelo (far worse though). Kane(s), Carter, Richards, even Avery--they all had "made it." And even then, the latter three were given up on, some multiple times. DeAngelo hasn't made it as a productive regular. He doesn't get the same leeway.

Who was Washington's bad boy? Wilson? Dirty player, but there were never character or work ethic concerns with him. Ovechkin is lazy at times. He's also possibly the greatest goal scorer ever. Pittsburgh before that? Sestito is a thug, but same thing, not a "difficult" player. And then your guys--Chicago with Kane, LA with Richards. Established stars who got into shit. I have no doubt that Rangers would be playing the Patty Kane or Mike Richards of 2009, despite their issues. Either way, it's not like you need "troubled players" to win. You can win with a good character group.

We've also drafted Lakatos, who has issues, and they've ruined his chances of every getting a deal. We took Sean Day, a guy known, right or wrong, for being fat and lazy and not committed to practicing. They only got rid of Robin Kovacs because he asked to be released. A couple years prior they took Duclair. They have no problem taking chances on guys, or working with guys with problems. Just because some people feel it's wrong to sit out DeAngelo for whatever issues he's having without even knowing what those issues are, doesn't make it so.