Confirmed with Link: Tomas Hertl 17% retained, 2025 3rd, 2027 3rd to Vegas for C David Edstrom, 2025 1st

[Grinner]

I'm gonna argue that he didn't. He had mostly the same group of guys around for 15+ years who had not kept up with the industry. It's experience but it was such outdated experience that it was mostly irrelevant to how FOs need to be run in the 2020s

Sounds like job security

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

That is untrue regarding Florida. Florida Panthers yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

Those like all NHL figures are tickets sold, not how many people showed up. About a decade ago, I was in the Florida Keys and thought about driving up to Miami to see a game. On the resale market, you could get second-row seats at center ice for $20 each. Nobody went, and that matters for team revenue (concessions etc.).

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Hi, is this the Tomas Hertl trade thread?

 

[TheBeard]

Those like all NHL figures are tickets sold, not how many people showed up. About a decade ago, I was in the Florida Keys and thought about driving up to Miami to see a game. On the resale market, you could get second-row seats at center ice for $20 each. Nobody went, and that matters for team revenue (concessions etc.).

Sure, but at the end of the day for a bottom feeder team, number that shows up doesn’t matter as much.

 

[karltonian]

So you'd rather rebuild with the Sharks older players falling apart, drafting in 10-15 range, have no shot at top prospects and get nothing for players as they grow old?

As opposed to shipping older players while they can still get assets, drafting 1-5 range, and building a prsopect base?

I'm sorry were we in danger of drafting in the 10-15 range?

 

[mogambomoroo]

Now that this trade is a little bit more marinated and a little time has passed.
I think the priority should have been to trade Barbie now and trade Hertl in the offseason.
Since Hertl is still in contract with us, we could have waited until summer easily. You could have done the deal in the NHL entry draft/Free Agency for a later 1st round pick + prospect.
Hearing Vegas and Sharks kept it a secret, was a very bad bad move from MG. I mean how could there be a better deal, if it's kept secret.

 

[Hodge]

Now that this trade is a little bit more marinated and a little time has passed.
I think the priority should have been to trade Barbie now and trade Hertl in the offseason.
Since Hertl is still in contract with us, we could have waited until summer easily. You could have done the deal in the NHL entry draft/Free Agency for a later 1st round pick + prospect.
Hearing Vegas and Sharks kept it a secret, was a very bad bad move from MG. I mean how could there be a better deal, if it's kept secret.

Who cares about getting a 6th round pick (if that) for Barabanov?

 

[mogambomoroo]

Who cares about getting a 6th round pick (if that) for Barabanov?

In hindsight I think we could have waited until offseason for Hertl and traded Barabanov for anything just to get the value. Don't get me wrong it was the right move to move Hertl, but I feel like there could have been a little of a competition between teams for Hertl if this wasn't kept secret.
I feel like even if we got a young top 4 right handed defencemen from someone even without draft picks I would be happier.

 

[Hodge]

In hindsight I think we could have waited until offseason for Hertl and traded Barabanov for anything just to get the value. Don't get me wrong it was the right move to move Hertl, but I feel like there could have been a little of a competition between teams for Hertl if this wasn't kept secret.
I feel like even if we got a young top 4 right handed defencemen from someone even without draft picks I would be happier.

Who would have given up a young top 4 RHD for Barabanov? Or did you mean for Hertl?

Grier told reporters after the trade that he put out feelers and there wasn't much interest in acquiring Hertl, even in the offseason with the cap going up. We have no reason not to believe him since the contract is so risky. Maybe we could have dumped Hertl without retention in the offseason but the return would have been much worse (maybe even nothing) in that scenario.

 

[mogambomoroo]

Who would have given up a young top 4 RHD for Barabanov? Or did you mean for Hertl?

Grier told reporters after the trade that he put out feelers and there wasn't much interest in acquiring Hertl, even in the offseason with the cap going up. We have no reason not to believe him since the contract is so risky. Maybe we could have dumped Hertl without retention in the offseason but the return would have been much worse (maybe even nothing) in that scenario.

For Hertl.

It's just weird that there wasn't more buzz about this. Maybe we dodged a bullet with this trade.
Who knows.

 

[Cas]

I suspect a draft pick in hand is better than two in the bush.

Not trading Hertl now risks losing a 1st and prospect, and holding onto a big, bad contract, in exchange for, what, a 3rd?

 

[coooldude]

"kept it secret" doesn't mean Grier didn't ask other teams, it means they were very secretive about the discussions. I'm not sure we had a better option in the off-season. Vegas was willing to play ball for the LTIR benefit.

 

[stator]

I look at the trade as favorable for Grier. Hertl's contract would become a burden in a couple of seasons, and waiting to the off-season, or when Burns' retention comes off the books would mean higher retention, imo.

I don't think it's a great trade, but a fairly good trade for both clubs. Las Vegas will need to figure out how to get Hertl to retire via LTIR at some point. I don't think his body is going to make it to the end of his contract, unfortunately.

If feels weird not having Hertl in teal. He was a major face of the Sharks.

 

[mogambomoroo]

To be honest seeing how Vegas operates on trades and business, I'm afraid they'll one day just be as good at getting draft picks when they are bad. I feel like with this Hertl trade they have our number in some way. I wouldn't be suprised if they would miss the playoffs next year and that they'll be calling for that 1st round pick back and MG being like yeah we totally need Kolesar, Cotter and 2nd round pick. (this was a joke, but seeing how Vegas operates they know how to pull the strings)

 

[STL Shark]

Both of those teams were objectively terrible before tearing it down and "doing it right," because they were objectively terrible and had to. The Sharks were not in that position, they were a good team with assets. They have squandered everything and are essentially an expansion team right now. An old-style expansion team.


Do we have good prospects? Not really, not yet. And we aren't really in position to get them for sure because of the way the draft lottery works. Celebrini would be a start but we all know how likely that is.

We have 0 clear first line players on the team or in the system, and it's not clear we have any decent 2nd liners either. Then we haven't even started building the defense. There's tearing it down to the studs and there's destroying the studs as well.

Where were the Sharks a good team since 2018-19? Where did they have assets to turn things around with the boat anchor contracts that were on the books? This first paragraph is just looney tunes land.

Grier inherited a mess because DW tried to make a trade that was wholly unnecessary at the time (Karlsson) pan out more in the long run by doubling down and giving him the largest deal for a D-Man in league history. That was on top of handing out 7 year deals like candy to Vlasic, Jones (6 years), Kane, Couture, and Burns which thereby sucked any cap space out of the team and forced them to ice the mediocre draft prospects that they had drafted along with mediocre to bad Euro free agents that he believed could make up the entirety of the bottom 6.

There was no way around this tear it down to the studs rebuild with the cap space we didn't have. The only appropriate option was tear it down. Any other sort of half measure leads you to 5 more years of mediocrity without a legitimate chance to come out of it.

To the prospects, we've gone from a system that has never been inside the top 25 for most of my time following the sport (15+ years now) to the 4th ranked prospect pool in the league (per The Athletic 2 months ago). Couple that with 2 first rounders the next 2 years, an additional 2nd rounder this year, plus adding a late 1st rounder from last year and there's a good chance that the Sharks will have a top 2 system in the league (with 90% being guys Grier has brought in during his first 25 months on the job).

 

[STL Shark]

I suspect a draft pick in hand is better than two in the bush.

Not trading Hertl now risks losing a 1st and prospect, and holding onto a big, bad contract, in exchange for, what, a 3rd?

With the injury issues, risk that Vegas does Vegas things and finds their Center need/want elsewhere at the deadline and saddles us with Hertl for 6 more years, you have to take the deal when you get fair/max value because it might not be there if you wait (with a limited pool of teams for a big contract with a NTC).

 

[Stewie Griffin]

With how our current prospects are doing and how many relatively high picks we have in 2024 and 2025 I cannot wait to see what our U23 roster looks like by July 2025.

We are in position to get 3 A level prospects between SJ 24 & 25 1st and whatever the Pens pick becomes. And the VGK 25 1st, NJD 24 2nd, and SJ 24 & 25 2nds should all be top 40-45 picks.

 

[Alaskanice]

With how our current prospects are doing and how many relatively high picks we have in 2024 and 2025 I cannot wait to see what our U23 roster looks like by July 2025.

We are in position to get 3 A level prospects between SJ 24 & 25 1st and whatever the Pens pick becomes. And the VGK 25 1st, NJD 24 2nd, and SJ 24 & 25 2nds should all be top 40-45 picks.

This

 

[gaucholoco3]

With the injury issues, risk that Vegas does Vegas things and finds their Center need/want elsewhere at the deadline and saddles us with Hertl for 6 more years, you have to take the deal when you get fair/max value because it might not be there if you wait (with a limited pool of teams for a big contract with a NTC).

Vegas made the deal at this deadline because they are going all in on repeating. They have the Stone LTIR space this season which allows them to fit in Hertl. They will be screwed in the offseason and will regret the trade if they don’t win the cup this season.

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

Sure, but at the end of the day for a bottom feeder team, number that shows up doesn’t matter as much.

Not true. If people with tickets do not show up, first you lose the extra income from concessions and parking. Second, the resale market crashes from season ticket holders trying to sell tickets they do not want to use. Over several years, this hurts season ticket sales as holders realize they cannot sell off extra games at anywhere close to their face value.

The best thing for an NHL team is to sell a large number of season tickets and sellout every game well in advance.

 

[sharski]

I demand that VGK lose in the first round in the playoffs followed by Hertl promptly demanding a trade

 

[STL Shark]

With how our current prospects are doing and how many relatively high picks we have in 2024 and 2025 I cannot wait to see what our U23 roster looks like by July 2025.

We are in position to get 3 A level prospects between SJ 24 & 25 1st and whatever the Pens pick becomes. And the VGK 25 1st, NJD 24 2nd, and SJ 24 & 25 2nds should all be top 40-45 picks.

And the best part is we get all of that without having any long-term salary obligations to worry about. This should allow the core to all grow together and let them prove out who will be good and worth building around and who isn't. Should make handing out bridge/long-term deals more clear cut and remove some risk.

 

[weastern bias]

Both of those teams were objectively terrible before tearing it down and "doing it right," because they were objectively terrible and had to. The Sharks were not in that position, they were a good team with assets. They have squandered everything and are essentially an expansion team right now. An old-style expansion team.


Do we have good prospects? Not really, not yet. And we aren't really in position to get them for sure because of the way the draft lottery works. Celebrini would be a start but we all know how likely that is.

We have 0 clear first line players on the team or in the system, and it's not clear we have any decent 2nd liners either. Then we haven't even started building the defense. There's tearing it down to the studs and there's destroying the studs as well.

The Sharks were objectively terrible for 3 years before tearing it all down, Wilson never acknowledged reality and kept digging the hole deeper, Grier began the rebuild in earnest

All the while our impact players aged out of elite status or demanded out due to our inability to win, and with a salary structure built to desperately hold together a contender while the team was scraping the bottom of the standings we really didn't have any other options but to liquidate the entire roster

Mike has done a beautiful job of extracting value out of the sea of bad contracts he inherited, now instead of having a terrible team with many future years of committed money we have a similarly terrible team with unparalleled flexibility under the salary cap, we're going to have to spend this summer to hit the cap floor, which I don't think has ever happened for this franchise since the cap was first implemented

We're also only going to get MORE flexible over time as Vlasic and Couture expire, the Burns, Karlsson and Hertl retentions wrap up and the Jones buyout comes off the books

The biggest roadblock in our rebuild is now gone, the true value in trading Hertl isn't even in the return, it's in the long term cap relief, we basically spent 2 3rds to get rid of a huge cap dump and we got an uprotected 1st and a 19 year old 1st round prospect to do so, this trade was actually incredible value

And this isn't even the first step of the rebuild, we've already liquidated Burns (completely necessary) and Karlsson (an actual miracle) and used those pieces to get more value, we have a genuine scoring prospect from the 2023 1st round, we're going to pick top-5 in 2024, we have more 1sts coming our way from these trades, everything is pushing in a positive direction

We went from the most uniquely unenviable situation in the league when looking at results combined with salary structure to having a real path laid toward a legitimate ground up rebuild and Mike accomplished that in less than 2 full years, he's been an exceptional tear-down GM

The HUGE question mark is, he's great at tearing it down, but what does it look like when he's trying to build it back up again, I will say I have my doubts (he seems to think David Quinn is a good coach, for instance), but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, AT LEAST we now have a path laid to find out within 5 years instead of within 10 years

THAT'S how bad the end of the Wilson era was, we were already at the bottom of the well, but it took 2 seasons of wizardry to siphon out the sewage we were drowning in, now we can finally try to start climbing back up

 

[Pavelski2112]

We're also only going to get MORE flexible over time as Vlasic and Couture expire, the Burns, Karlsson and Hertl retentions wrap up and the Jones buyout comes off the books

Honestly, at this point it's looking more likely than not that Couture is done, so Vlasic might legitimately end up as the last of the bad contracts we have, which is fitting in a way

 

[sharks_dynasty]

The Sharks were objectively terrible for 3 years before tearing it all down, Wilson never acknowledged reality and kept digging the hole deeper, Grier began the rebuild in earnest

All the while our impact players aged out of elite status or demanded out due to our inability to win, and with a salary structure built to desperately hold together a contender while the team was scraping the bottom of the standings we really didn't have any other options but to liquidate the entire roster

Mike has done a beautiful job of extracting value out of the sea of bad contracts he inherited, now instead of having a terrible team with many future years of committed money we have a similarly terrible team with unparalleled flexibility under the salary cap, we're going to have to spend this summer to hit the cap floor, which I don't think has ever happened for this franchise since the cap was first implemented

We're also only going to get MORE flexible over time as Vlasic and Couture expire, the Burns, Karlsson and Hertl retentions wrap up and the Jones buyout comes off the books

The biggest roadblock in our rebuild is now gone, the true value in trading Hertl isn't even in the return, it's in the long term cap relief, we basically spent 2 3rds to get rid of a huge cap dump and we got an uprotected 1st and a 19 year old 1st round prospect to do so, this trade was actually incredible value

And this isn't even the first step of the rebuild, we've already liquidated Burns (completely necessary) and Karlsson (an actual miracle) and used those pieces to get more value, we have a genuine scoring prospect from the 2023 1st round, we're going to pick top-5 in 2024, we have more 1sts coming our way from these trades, everything is pushing in a positive direction

We went from the most uniquely unenviable situation in the league when looking at results combined with salary structure to having a real path laid toward a legitimate ground up rebuild and Mike accomplished that in less than 2 full years, he's been an exceptional tear-down GM

The HUGE question mark is, he's great at tearing it down, but what does it look like when he's trying to build it back up again, I will say I have my doubts (he seems to think David Quinn is a good coach, for instance), but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, AT LEAST we now have a path laid to find out within 5 years instead of within 10 years

THAT'S how bad the end of the Wilson era was, we were already at the bottom of the well, but it took 2 seasons of wizardry to siphon out the sewage we were drowning in, now we can finally try to start climbing back up

I actually think that Quinn is doing a great job considering the crap he has to work with and also has developed a playing style according to the types of players we currently have. I think his coaching style will evolve as we get better players, especially on D. I personally appreciate how he catered the style of play to magnify the value of Karlsson last year. That shows he is willing to adapt based on what’s necessary.

On the other hand, if he is not able to adapt and things don’t improve with a better roster, a coaching change is easy to do.